Palestine 🇵🇸 = Ukraine 🇺🇦 ?

What is the legal position on war when you don’t have an army?

As far as the British Army is concerned, if it looks like an army, and behaves like an army then it’s treated as an army.

So whilst Palestine is effectively prohibited from forming an army to protect itself, Israel continues to receive vast amounts of military aid…

We are seeing the subjugation of millions of people, mate, that’s Fascism.

That’s not what fascism means. It has a very specific technical meaning. Using it as a general term for any government you dislike robs it of its meaning. I disliked both the G.W. Bush and Trump administrations, they were utterly terrible presidents. They weren’t fascists though, even if Trump seems to have fantasies of being one.

As thols seems to have picked up on, language is very important for propaganda purposes:

In the 1st headline, it’s Palestinian militants as aggressors against an unnamed air strike.

In the 2nd headline, it’s outgunned Ukrainian defenders against a clearly named Russian attack.

How the media frames the story impacts how people understand it. It’s not an accident.

— Assal Rad (@AssalRad) August 6, 2022

The irony of supporting one country that’s being invaded whilst supporting another country that is invading another seems to be lost on a lot of people…..

The irony of supporting one country that’s being invaded whilst supporting another country that is invading another seems to be lost on a lot of people…..

That’s not what’s happening here. The OP’s question was about whether Ukraine and Palestine are the same. They aren’t the same, there are some important differences. That’s not the same as saying that Israeli policy isn’t appalling. I don’t support Israel’s policies towards the Palestinians but they are orders of magnitude less bad than Russia’s behaviour in Ukraine (and China’s, and Myanmar’s…). Ukraine is not deliberately targeting Russian civilians, Palestinian groups are targeting Israeli civilians. Sending weapons to Ukraine is not problematic, sending weapons to Palestine to be used against Israeli civilians is very problematic. No irony there, two different situations, two different policies.

I thought the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter was whether they were on your side or not.

No-one was suggesting sending arms to Palestine I’m more concerned that the west has continually financed and supported Israel. .

I thought the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter was whether they were on your side or not.

I’ve always thought that was an important observation about how propaganda works. Key thing is that you can be both a freedom fighter and a terrorist. Terrorism is a strategy used in warfare. You can be fighting a just war but also engage in war crimes such as terrorism. Being on the good guys’ side shouldn’t excuse you from answering for war crimes. Believing that Russia is wrong wouldn’t excuse Ukrainian soldiers for torturing and murdering prisoners. Believing that Israeli policy is appalling doesn’t excuse murdering Israeli civilians.

That being the case, why aren’t Palestinian Freedom fighters described as such in the media?

After all, Israeli soldiers often target civilians, yet terrorism is never mentioned in relation to Israel’s actions…

“Strange how NATO are not sanctioning apartheid Israel & arming the Palestinians…”

This was the quote from the other thread that started this conversation.

Might I suggest that the reason NATO behaves in this way is that they see Israel as a more useful strategic partner in the geopolitical sense than Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad.

The Jews have been chased around the Middle East, Europe and North Africa for 2 millennia and they decided to make a stand in the Middle East. Their primary concern is their survival as a people. They know that many of their neighbours would like to see them wiped off of the face of the earth. It doesn’t make their actions right but it is the fact of the matter.

My own partner has Russian / Ukranian Jewish ancestry, her great grandfather migrated to Britain in the late 19th Century, which was pretty good timing, as his chances of survival at the hands of both the Russians and the Ukranians (or the Germans for that matter) would have been pretty slim had he stayed. He and his family ezperienced a lot of grief when they came to britain but at least they weren’t slaughtered.

I don’t think that Jewish Isrealis really give a s*** what we think. If we want to help the Palestinians then we need to change the narrative and treat the Palestine issue as something other than a ‘gotcha’ question.

That being the case, why aren’t Palestinian Freedom fighters described as such in the media?

After all, Israeli soldiers often target civilians, yet terrorism is never mentioned in relation to Israel’s actions…

Israel is actually extremely careful about legal stuff, which is a big part of their problem in my opinion (as I’ve explained earlier in the thread). Killing civilians in itself isn’t a war crime, deliberately and indiscriminately targeting them is. If there are weapons present at a location, the weapons can be targeted. If civilians get killed, that’s the responsibility of the side that brought the weapons to the location. All that Israel needs to do is to show that there was an armed Palestinian at the location (or a stash of weapons or bomb components) and they are legally in the clear.

Being legal doesn’t make it a good policy, I think it’s a terrible policy and extremely counterproductive. However, it does explain why Israeli soldiers kill civilians and aren’t prosecuted – they show some sort of evidence that they believed they were firing on armed fighters and then it’s pretty much impossible to prosecute.

“Strange how NATO are not sanctioning apartheid Israel & arming the Palestinians…”

This was the quote from the other thread that started this conversation

For what it’s worth, personally, I’m pretty disgusted at the human race as a whole for the vast amount of resources that are funneled into war, which trumps pretty much everything else including the future of the planet…

And to clarify, I don’t actually think arming the Palestinians is a viable option; after all, besides not being allowed to form an army, any weapons they did receive would 1st be vetted by the Israeli authorities, so as to ensure they remained largely ineffective.

That said, given Israel is increasingly being recognized as an apartheid state, it does beg the question as to why there is no significant talk of sanctions

All that IsraelRussia needs to do is to show that there was an armed Palestinian Ukrainian at the location (or a stash of weapons or bomb components) and they are legally in the clear.

Sergei Lavrov – is that you?

Killing civilians in itself isn’t a war crime

But Israel isnt at war with the Palestinians. So deaths that occur from shootings and bombings are crimes against humanity.

How ironic is that 😕

That said, given Israel is increasingly being recognized as an apartheid state, it does beg the question as to why there is no significant talk of sanctions

There is pressure to do that but the region is extremely unstable and pretty much every other country there has vastly worse human rights records than Israel. If you sanction Israel, then you need to sanction every country in the region. If you do that then you will probably destabilize the region and the results would be catastrophic. Keep in mind that Israel has nuclear weapons, Iran is very close to nuclear weapons capability, and Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc. would see no option but to go nuclear if Iran did. I really do feel great sympathy for the Palestinians used as pawn in all this, but plunging the region into a nuclear war is a much bigger concern than the plight of Palestinians.

“That said, given Israel is increasingly being recognized as an apartheid state, it does beg the question as to why there is no significant talk of sanctions”

If the West applied sanctions on Israel then they would turn to Russia or China for support. Failing that the whole situation would result in the most horrendous bloodbath and the U.N. would be called upon to stop the Jews being wiped from the middle eastern map.

For a bit of historical context, in the 1940’s, the Grand Mufti of Palestine was a member of the SS fighting in Bosnia during the second world war.

Also, as much as we celebrate Rommel as ‘the good General’, had he succeeded in reaching Palestine then the Einsatzgruppen that were stationed in Crete, ready and waiting, would have been shipped over to Palestine to do their worst.

Sergei Lavrov – is that you?

No, that’s the Israeli government lawyers. They read international law extremely carefully and train their soldiers in plausible deniability. That’s why it’s impossible to prosecute them.

I’m sure all this Kissinger-esque realpolitik is of great comfort to the Palestinian parents whose children have been killed.

No, that’s the Israeli government lawyers. They read international law extremely carefully and train their soldiers in plausible deniability. That’s why it’s impossible to prosecute them.

Please, spare us this bullshit. If there was any political will to prosecute, they’d be in court. As it is, even when an American journalist is shot dead in cold blood the US does nothing.

But Israel isnt at war with the Palestinians. So deaths that occur from shootings and bombings are crimes against humanity.

Not if they aren’t deliberately targeting civilians. If they bomb the location that a rocket was fired from, that’s targeting a military site, not civilians. Just because Palestinians don’t wear uniforms doesn’t mean that Israel can’t shoot back when Palestinians fire at Israel.

Israel is very careful to show that they don’t indiscriminately target civilians (in the legal sense, not the commonsensical sense). Palestinians indiscriminately fire rockets at Israeli cities, that’s utterly illegal. If you think Israel is criminally liable, there’s absolutely no way you can justify murdering Israeli civilians.

Palestine is under constant seige and invasion, yet is not allowed to form an army; hence their entire civilian population, who have every right to defend themselves, for the purposes of indiscriminate murder by Israeli forces, can effectively be classed as combatants…

Please, spare us this bullshit. If there was any political will to prosecute, they’d be in court. As it is, even when an American journalist is shot dead in cold blood the US does nothing.

Same thing when the Saudi’s strangled and dismembered a journalist in their embassy in Turkey. Do you really think anyone wants to start a regional war over that? The region is a tinderbox full of murderous tyrants. Nobody wants to start arresting and trying heads of state, it would start WW3.

Aside from both being formed by the British in the 1st place, the Saudi and Israeli regimes have the continued full support of Western Powers.

Hence the soft touch when it comes to media coverage

Palestine is under constant seige and invasion, yet is not allowed to form an army; hence their entire civilian population, who have every right to defend themselves, for the purposes of indiscriminate murder by Israeli forces, can effectively be classed as combatants…

If you don’t have a weapon, you aren’t a combatant. Even if you are a soldier in uniform, if you are unarmed and trying to surrender, you are legally protected. I’m sure that in the heat of battle that gets ignored a lot, but it’s not the case that you can just kill anyone who is classed as a combatant. The point of Israeli legal doctrine is to show plausible evidence that there were weapons or some sort of threat. That’s not the same as deliberately and indiscriminately targeting civilians like Russia is doing.

I have no doubt there is a wealth of videos out there that would completely debunk your analysis, though many would likely be a touch gruesome for the forum, so instead, let’s take a look at one of many first-hand testimonies on the subject:

ot if they aren’t deliberately targeting civilians.

But they are deliberately targeting civilians. Usually youths who throw stones towards them at the border.

And as we all know, stones are the equivalent of bullets, which means Israeli snipers are totally justified in returning 7.62mm rounds in retaliation.

But they are deliberately targeting civilians. Usually youths who throw stones towards them at the border.

And as we all know, stones are the equivalent of bullets,

No, they aren’t the equivalent of bullets (you’re being silly there, right?), but they are weapons. Throwing rocks at armed border guards isn’t just a bunch of harmless civilians out having a picnic. If you don’t believe me, get someone to throw some rocks at you. They hurt like ****, I got hit on the hand by a chunk of a broken roofing tile when I was a kid, smashed my hand. Forever grateful it was my hand, not my head.

That’s not the same as deliberately and indiscriminately targeting civilians like Russia is doing.

I’m sure the Russians make exactly the same excuse.

But they are deliberately targeting civilians. Usually youths who throw stones towards them at the border.

Or, indeed, journalists and health care workers. Just like the Russians.

I got hit on the hand by a chunk of a broken roofing tile when I was a kid, smashed my hand. Forever grateful it was my hand, not my head.

And were you dressed head to toe in body armour, wearing a ballistic helmet ?

.

I will say that those youths are using slings, and well selected rocks, but slings though it will pack a fair punch, arent travelling at 2400 feet a second and are fully jacketed in hardened curonickel

But no, I wasnt being funny. Palestinian youths get shot all the time.

Thols,

I’m with you on some of the points you have made but you can’t draw an equivalence between a kid throwing a stone and being shot with a bullet.

I’d call such actions murder.

There have been plenty of protests in the UK where protesters have thrown missiles and worse at the police. Would you excuse the UK police if the opened fire on said perotestors?

Or, indeed, journalists and health care workers. Just like the Russians.

Not, not “just like” the Russians. Russia does it very differently. The Russian approach is to demonstrate that they have no concern for laws, treaties, or human rights. In fact, they murder journalists and opposition politicians and are now torturing and raping Ukrainian civilians just to demonstrate they they have contempt for the law. They aren’t trying to pretend they’re not guilty, they are flaunting that they are guilty and their opponents are powerless to do anything about it.

The Israeli approach is a legalistic one. They accept the law but hire lawyers to explore the grey areas. They train their soldiers to push the limits of plausible deniability, but not to just openly flaunt contempt for the law.

So, no, the Israelis are not “just like the Russians”, they are different in a very important way. Israel accepts international law, but tries to skirt the edges. Russia openly violates the law as a deliberate strategy to intimidate their opponents.

I agree with Thols, DrJ, you’re being rather silly.

So, no, the Israelis are not “just like the Russians”, they are different in a very important way. Israel accepts international law, but tries to skirt the edges. Russia openly violates the law as a deliberate strategy to intimidate their opponents.

Either way – dead children.

Israel accepts international law

I can’t believe that I have just read that!

I can’t believe that I have just read that!

In a “limited and specific way” I suppose.

you can’t draw an equivalence between a kid throwing a stone

Problem here is what you mean by a “stone”. If it’s a pebble, it’s harmless. If it’s a rock, it’s potentially fatal.

There have been plenty of protests in the UK where protesters have thrown missiles and worse at the police. Would you excuse the UK police if the opened fire on said perotestors?

If you throw a rock at a police, you’re gonna face a serious assault charge if caught. Doesn’t mean the police should just shoot you, but the courts will consider a rock as a weapon. Israel isn’t the UK. Throwing rocks at armed border guards isn’t a harmless kid’s prank and the kids doing that know exactly what they’re doing.

In a “limited and specific way” I suppose.

Accepts international law in a limited and specific way?

Just the settlements in the occupied territories are a daily violation of international law.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”

Accepts international law in a limited and specific way?

Yes 🙂 🙂 🙂