Osbourne says no to currency union.

dragon – Member
…I just think it’s sad some people are prepared to believe utterly wrong propaganda.

I agree.

It’s atrocious what the UK govt and the establishment’s vested interests are stooping to. It’s almost as if they don’t think democracy is a good thing.

Only 211 days to go before this thread expires…

Oh dear god make it stop

The Bank of Scotland is part of Lloyd’s BUT is a separate subsidiary head quartered in Edinburgh. As such it would be the responsibility of Scotland under independence. RBS is more complicated since it is registered and headquartered in Scotland but operates through a variety of branches and subsidiaries. In that case, each legal entity is treated separately eg RBS is treated as Scottish but Nat West is treated as rUK.

The article is all ifs and buts and maybe’s, with figures plucked from thin air.

“In the case of the RBS, I’m not sure of the exact numbers, but roughly speaking 90% of its operations are in England and 10% are in Scotland

Roughly when you are talking about billions of pounds and peoples livelihoods, doesn’t really cut it for analysis.

piemonster – Member

Oh dear god make it stop

Don’t worry, we will… 😆

I, for one, am enjoying all the discussion about whether an independent Scotland would have the capacity to bail out banks without considering the distinction between deposit-taking and investment banking activities, and whether states ought to be in the bank bailing out business at all.

epicyclo – Member
Only 211 days to go before this thread expires…
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

It won’t go that long, I reckon we are only 2-3 pages away from consensus.

That article up there….

Wasn’t Salmond in favour of less regulation of the financial sector rather than more (along with undercutting rUK corporation tax)?

It’s funny how when it gets pointed out that some of the pro stuff is full of holes people just ignore it and blithely keep on posting it. But when it’s the other way round it’s apparently all the fault of a sinister campaign of bullying and manipulation by the evil antis.

I Still find it hard to believe that the yes supporters can claim rUK would have to renegotiate into EU and not give it’s residents a vote in the referendum?

Interesting take on democracy to think 10% of a countries population can dictate the European future of of the remaining 90%, who are excluded from even the right to put a cross against their choice at the ballot box.

Pro European voters in England, Wales and NI may have thought Nigel Farage was the main threat to it remaining in the EU. Who would have thought it was his kindred spirit in the North that was the real threat.

On currency, the SNP were quick to tell us how much George Osborne’s heinous decision will cost English business. £500m I think. John Swinney was asked to tell listeners today how much the Tory chancellor will cost Scottish businesses. He repeatedly failed to put a figure on it. He must know? I would have thought he would have jumped at the chance to put a cost to Scotland of this bullying act. I think the truth is that rUK businesses may blame Osborne, but SNP are equally liable in the eyes of business in Scotland.

Didn’t the CBI say earlier that whilst cross border restrictions on currency etc may cost UK businesses trading with Scotland, it was still a smaller risk to business than signing up to a Currency Union?

I Still find it hard to believe that the yes supporters can claim rUK would have to renegotiate into EU and not give it’s residents a vote in the referendum?

I don’t know if that was an entirely serious suggestion – it’s certainly never something I’ve suggested. But it’s also a little bit hard to believe that the EU would kick out Scotland – it’d be a big load of hassle for a country that’s been in the EU for decades, and would likely be readmitted pretty quickly.

But anyhow, this is another of those “facts” that is really more of a political negotiating position than a hard fact.

You haven’t ben, although I have heard from a few sources. epicyclo did most recently on page 28 (20 hours ago). Sorry I can’t cut and paste properly.

it’d be a big load of hassle for a country that’s been in the EU for decades

Scotland is a country in the EU?

http://www.eucountrylist.com

Ah, are we back to the “Scotland isn’t a country” argument? Okay, Scottish people and companies have been in a country that has been a member of the EU for decades, is that a better way of phrasing it?

athgray – Member
You haven’t ben, although I have heard from a few sources. epicyclo did most recently on page 28 (20 hours ago). Sorry I can’t cut and paste properly.

I was quoting an article in the Guardian which raises the spectre of the new states all round.

There’s also the UK govt’s “Opinion: Referendum on the Independence of Scotland – International Law Aspects
Professor James Crawford SC Professor Alan Boyle”

From the executive summary looking at possible results of a split:

3.1 Most likely, the rUK would be considered the continuator of the UK for all international purposes and Scotland a new state.
3.2 Some states have dissolved entirely into new states, leaving no continuator.
3.3 Reversion to a previous independent state such as the pre-1707 Scottish state
may not be excluded.

You’ll note they think it’s most likely that there will be a continuing state, the UK, but it’s not set in stone.

As I’ve said earlier, politics will settle this rather than what’s strictly by the book but if there’s disagreement about the split it will provide just the sort of stoush that Salmond enjoys.

I can’t answer why Westminster hasn’t seen fit to give the rest of the country a say, but possibly they view it like a divorce where either party can leave whether the other likes it or not.

Edit:

If you believe in democracy, then the opinion of the residents of a country is the only qualification that’s necessary for whether it’s a country or not.

Don’t worry, we will…

Not quick enough I fear.

Think I’m going to just camp out (in a probably fairly substantial) snow cave on Carn An Righ until it’s all over.

Have we done funding of sport yet?

I wonder how well the ice bowls team would be getting on without National Lottery funding.

🙂

Ben,

But it’s also a little bit hard to believe that the EU would kick out Scotland

There’s going to be a load of negotiations for Scottish entry with other countries in the EU. Possibly it will be waved through. Possibly though some countries will insist that Scotland sign up to the Schengen agreement, or the Euro (and not that “signing-up-but-not-really-going-to-do-so” we’ve been hearing about), or agreements about fisheries, or whatever.

Perhaps whoever is in charge of Scotland will agree to these terms, and Scotland will then become a member of the EU. Or perhaps they will manage to get the same opt-outs that the current UK has – and Scotland will become a member of the EU. Or perhaps Scotland will refuse to agree to some demand, the other EU states won’t compromise, and Scotland will be stuck out in the cold until the problem is resolved, or forever.

Ah, are we back to the “Scotland isn’t a country” argument?

Well it isn’t really a country in the EU – which is why you don’t see it in the list of EU countries. 😕

Again – if people in the ‘no’ camp made tenuous claims like that without qualification you’d be all over them.

Okay, Scottish people and companies have been in a country that has been a member of the EU for decades, is that a better way of phrasing it?

Yes – and it’s a fairly crucial distinction surely.

But it’s also a little bit hard to believe that the EU would kick out Scotland

Emotive and inaccurate language being used there? I don’t think it’s a question of Scotland being ‘kicked out’ – it’s that it will be a new country that doesn’t automatically get membership.

We haven’t done sport because despite quite a bit of investment Scotland is generally terrible right now when it comes to the main sports. Wales have been out preforming them recently in football, Rugby, cricket, cycling you name it. Also most of the best Scottish sports stars are based in England or elsewhere.

wonder how well the ice bowls team would be getting on without National Lottery funding

They can just put an extra 10p on the price of a deep fat fried mars bar and easily cover a few £100m for an international level sports development system.

epicyclo, if you were to turn up at EU negotiations and announce that in the event of Catalan independence you reckon Spain would have to re apply to the EU, you had better have a lot more to secure Spains vote than slamming a North Sea haddock on the table as a sweetener. You might as well take along Captain Birdseye with a couple of pool balls in a sock.

From The Scotsman’s leader

If Mr Salmond wants to keep hopes of a currency union alive, then he needs to be able to offer an iron-clad proposal that will extinguish all possibility of taxpayers south of the Border being asked to pay for a Scottish bail-out. So far, what he has set out does not do that.

To threaten that in retaliation, Scotland will not take on any share of the UK debt built up while Scotland was a member of the Union is vacuous. Financial markets care little for debating points that this would not be a technical default, they would see a country failing to honour debts for which it has benefited – preventing an almighty bank bust, and building new infrastructure – and penalise Scotland accordingly, which would mean increased costs for borrowing for everybody.

The world is waking up to reality!

The world is waking up to reality!

I think most of the world already realised AS was 99% BS.

athgray – Member
epicyclo, if you were to turn up at EU negotiations and announce that in the event of Catalan independence you reckon Spain would have to re apply to the EU, you had better have a lot more to secure Spains vote than slamming a North Sea haddock on the table as a sweetener.

Different circumstance. No haddock required.

It looks like the Germans agree eu-infothek

This English parliament people refer to, when did this happen? I missed regional devolution and didn’t get to vote on it!
How insulting to our partners in Wales and Northern Ireland that contribute to administering/governing the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to give it its full title. Don’t insult the near neighbours when attempting to make your own way in the world. It’s rude and the arse you kick today may well be the one you need to kiss tomorrow.
It looks like UK will continue after secession as the Norther Ireland bit will be staying behind. We’ll (the English and Welsh) have to re-apply when Sinn Fein manage to negotiate their secession!

Can’t wait.

If you believe in democracy, then the opinion of the residents of a country is the only qualification that’s necessary for whether it’s a country or not.

A country that is neither a state nor sovereign sounds like a funny sort of country.

Just had a look at the link epicyclo. Think I got the jist of it through google translate. It is German based, they may be broadly supportive. It does not reveal anything, however about how Spain may feel following your compellingly researched legal advice stating ‘rump’ states having to reapply for EU membership.

You can consider yourself grateful that you currently live in a UK that you feel gives the power to Scots alone through the referendum, to not only decide a future path for Scotland but for the remaining 55 million with out any say so from them. You should perhaps kiss CMD’s backside rather than kick it.

As I understand Spain has no plan to allow only the Catalans to choose independence. The vote would be for all of Spain. If you have sympathy for the nationalist cause of Catalonia, I am sure they won’t thank you for your research.

I will stress that I don’t know how nations would vote in ascesion for Scotland to the EU, but the poitical naivety of some of Scotlands politicians when removed from their small pond is worrying.

I still reckon you will need that trawler net. Happy fishing 😉

Sandwich – Member
…How insulting to our partners in Wales and Northern Ireland that contribute to administering/governing the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to give it its full title. Don’t insult the near neighbours when attempting to make your own way in the world…

Your partners did not sign the 1707 Treaty of Union. England which represented their interest did. Hence the references to just England and Scotland, but just in that context.

…and the arse you kick today may well be the one you need to kiss tomorrow…

Excellent point, good thing for the rUK to remember too.

You also insinuated that not allowing the whole of the UK a vote in the referendum showed a lack of democratic values towards it’s people.

I wonder how you would feel if Scotland was removed from the UK, following a vote of the whole UK, and a majority if Scots supporting it?

Wife is saying that there is a thread on mumsnet entitled,

“Am I being unreasonable to think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?”

Come on the mums!

mods are you there???

I think what this thread needs is TJ to be brought back, no really he’d have bashed the shite out of everyone on here

😆 as much as I support the idea of TJ coming back, this thread would be a complete train crash with his contributions – you have to wonder whether the mods are waiting until after the referendum to let him back!

Ah mumsnet looked at a bit of the thread and they have a good stooshie going there too. Athgray your post reminded me of the penis beaker thread which was about the funniest thread I saw last year. ..with the exception of the wife signal thread 🙂

Dp

athgray – Member
…I wonder how you would feel if Scotland was removed from the UK, following a vote of the whole UK, and a majority if Scots supporting it?

I would be forever grateful to my UK benefactors. 🙂

I see there’s still plenty of playing the man (Salmond) going on. It’s not really relevant. He heads up a party that is for the purpose of independence, but if he was abducted by aliens tomorrow it wouldn’t make any difference, the independence movements would continue.

There’s a whole lot more to the the independence movement than the SNP. There’s Labour for Independence, LibDems for independence, Scottish Socialists for independence, and a whole lot of other similar splinter groups hiving off from the main parties. It’s a very broad church.

We’re now going in circles, so you’ll all be glad to hear I am banning myself from further contributions to this thread. I’m off on a pilgrimage south to find TJ to get lessons from the master in STW discussions… 🙂

I suspect you’re mistaking playing the man’s arguments for playing the man. Yes there has been a bit of slagging of him, but mainly in the context of him not making a very good case.

Epicyclo,if there are lots of personal attacks on AS as here is a microcosm,then the no vote will be able to take peoples attention away from their hitherto extremely negative campaign.

Missed the last couple of days so help me get back up to speed.
Does this thread not now consists of approx 80% English contributers explaining to/convincing each other why we won’t get x and y? Throw in the odd racial stereotype(deep fried mars bar,hilarious!)and attempts to now portray the yes campaign as the bullies(by comparing their tactics to the way the no camp has carried itself,an obviously good example) Hmm…this thread has become a mirror image of the actual campaign.
The suggestion that the rest of the UK should get a vote is being circulated every couple of pages…Mind you, vote on what? As we have also had detailed explanations on why Scotland is not even a country thus far on this thread,with a discussion from two of our Southern Correspondents on whether it did or did not have any distinctive culture.( I think they both melted in a pool of selective quotations of each other’s posts)
Apparently lottery funding for the Scottish ice bowls team would also be cut off…And finally the currency/EU argument is mostly being fought by bcooper and epicylo against teamhurtmore’s elite team of cut and pasters.

Got everything?

(deep fried mars bar,hilarious!)

Absolutely right, you Scots have moved on. The Dunkeld Fish Bar now serves deep fried ‘Turkish Delight’

To be fair, I’ve not tried the ‘deep fried’ option yet. I keep seeing it. The deep fried pizza looks intimidating.

Genuine question, what the hell are these things like? Any good? Feel I should try one at least once.

Edit: if your passing and are after a fish supper. The chipper in Dunkeld is recommended.

Duckman, look at my posts since since I pointed out the flaw in epicyclos EU membership argument. No cut and pastes from me, the only mention of dear leader by me, was to point out a thread was running on mumsnet.

Go back a couple of pages you will see my post regarding the need for the no camp to grab the devo max ground to appeal to what voters actually want.

Did you give such a fleeting cursory glance and incorrect assessment of the white paper?