Home Forums Chat Forum Osbourne says no to currency union.

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  • Osbourne says no to currency union.
  • piemonster
    Free Member

    Something which remains a distinct possibility :

    There’s only one poll that counts btw

    Glad I’ve finally got to use that line. Someone usually gets in first.

    To be honest, I’ve no real idea how this is going to pan out. If the polling companies findings are accurate, no voters are awfy quiet about it. Which is interesting in itself. The yes crowd are very very vocal, you’ll see Yes far more than No. That said I’ve seen far more union jacks this last few months than in the first few years of being here.

    Some of the findings in the Scottish Attitudes Survey where surprising as well.

    rene59
    Free Member

    Of course what would be far more ironic would be if the people of Scotland were to reject the nats and vote to remain in a union with England, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

    So you expected a Yes vote?

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Glad I’ve finally got to use that line.

    Yes but it wasn’t really used appropriately was it ?

    I said : “Something which remains a distinct possibility”. I made no prediction. The retort would have worked a lot better if I had actually attempted to predict the outcome of the referendum.

    piemonster
    Free Member

    It wasn’t a particularly serious retort tbh.

    I was unsure of the correct emoticon to use so hoped the correct intonation would be apparent. Nevermind.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    So you expected a Yes vote?

    I thought it was the most likely outcome a few months back, I don’t anymore.

    ernie_lynch – Member

    Now personally I think that Yes Scotland will probably win on the day, but no one knows for sure.

    Posted 4 months ago #

    bencooper
    Free Member

    New polls:

    ICM for Scotland on Sunday: Yes 45% (+2), No 55% (-2)
    Panelbase for Sunday Herald: Yes 48% (+2), No 52% (-2)
    (Both excluding undecideds)

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    So opinion polls are still showing Yes Scotland trailing. Has there been any credible poll during the campaign which has placed the Yes camp in the lead even once ? I’m not aware of any and I find that quite remarkable.

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    32 days…

    bencooper
    Free Member

    There was one outlier a few months ago which showed Yes ahead – other than that, no.

    I don’t find it surprising – for most people, the status quo is the default position, they need to think and read and discuss to decide they want a change.

    I also think the polls could be way out – in either direction. There hasn’t been an referendum like this before, and a huge number of people will be voting for the first time. I’m not convinced the polling companies have got their statistical sampling sorted out to take account of this.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    … they need to think and read and discuss to decide they want a change.

    I’m sure the majority of Scots have thought about it.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Now it gets really confusing, with Big Tony from Oz weighing in
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28814936

    Mr Abbott said those who would like to see the UK break up were “not the friends of justice… [or] freedom”.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Tony Abbott is like George W Bush without the brains or diplomacy – if he agrees with you you’re pretty much guaranteed to be wrong. It’s worth reading some of the other stuff he’s said on the subjects of climate change, homosexuality, etc.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Tony Abbott’s comment was crass.

    To claim that you can’t support independence for Scotland and also be fully committed to justice and freedom is ridiculous in the extreme.

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    On the subject of “nationalism”

    piemonster
    Free Member

    Files ^^^ away under the joint sub directory of Nazis/Thatcher

    Tony Abbots a nob

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    “According to Westminster” made me chuckle. Presumably this includes the SNP MPs in Westminster.

    Thatcher never argued that England should be “independent” from the rest of the UK, I fairly substantial difference to the Yes campaign’s position I would have thought.

    Yes Scotland really are bankrupt of any intelligent arguments that they need to come up with the most ridiculous bottom of the barrel scraping nonsense. No wonder poll after poll shows them trailing Better Together.

    piemonster
    Free Member

    I knew I should have hung on for the “only one poll that counts” line

    wanmankylung
    Free Member

    Yes Scotland really are bankrupt of any intelligent arguments that they need to come up with the most ridiculous bottom of the barrel scraping nonsense.

    You see when you have to go for an attack on the intelligence of the other side because you have no better arguments to make – it means you have lost.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    “According to Westminster” made me chuckle. Presumably this includes the SNP MPs in Westminster.

    It’s a quicker way of saying “According to the three main Westminster political parties”.

    Of course Thatcher didn’t think England should be independent from the rest of the UK – if it was, she wouldn’t have been able to use the oil money to prop up the City financial boom and destroy our industries.

    piemonster
    Free Member

    Ben, can you copy and paste the Heralds Panelbase article for me please?

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    it means you have lost.

    So there !

    Yes Scotland are obviously struggling with providing intelligent arguments in favour of “independence” because so few exist.

    I’m sure they would love to come up with something slightly more intelligent than the “Thatcher was a nationalist” puerile school playground type taunt.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Ben, can you copy and paste the Heralds Panelbase article for me please?

    Sure, here you go:

    The Panelbase survey found a record 43% of voters now say they will back independence on September 18, compared to 47% voting No.

    The figures are 48% for Yes and 52% for No once undecided voters are removed, suggesting the Yes camp needs just a two-point swing for victory.

    The gap between the two sides has halved from eight points to four since last month, when Panelbase put Yes on 46% and No on 54%.

    Yes Scotland, who commissioned the new poll, hailed it as a turning point in the campaign. Chief executive Blair Jenkins said: “This is a breakthrough poll, showing support for Yes at a campaign high. It shows our message that only with independence can the wealth of Scotland work for all people is getting through. The No campaign are panicking at the steady closing of the polls and flinging mud, but it isn’t working because people want to support a positive vision for Scotland’s future.

    “And in our view the internationalisation of the debate, with people like President Obama talking about Scotland, and the acceptance across the political spectrum that Scotland needs more powers, are galvanising the Yes vote.”

    Speaking in Stirling yesterday, deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon said: “I’m confident that this campaign is neck and neck [with the No side] and that means it’s there for us to win.”

    Sturgeon will tomorrow confirm the draft constitution for an independent Scotland would commit the country to the early removal of Trident nuclear weapons, a promise likely to appeal to the wavering Labour voters seen as critical to the outcome of the referendum.

    The Panelbase exercise comes just days after a poll by Survation also found a record level of support for Yes, at 47%, compared to 53% for No.

    Pollster Professor John Curtice said the two new polls together suggested that, after a few months in the doldrums, the Yes campaign appeared to be regaining momentum.

    However, he also said the gender gap identified in the new Panelbase survey was “enormous”, with support for Yes among decided female voters 15 points behind that for men, at 41% against 56%.

    A Panelbase poll for Yes Scotland in April put the gap between the sexes at 10 points, with 42% of women backing Yes against 52% of men. He said: “It’s women that really are a problem for the Yes side. You get a majority among men, and it’s women who drag it [the total] down.”

    On a more positive note for Yes, support for independence has risen among decided Labour supporters (from 29% to 34%) and middle class ABC1 voters (from 38% to 41%) since Yes Scotland’s last Panelbase poll in April.

    Prof Curtice said the No camp ought to be worried that its much-vaunted “game-changer” moments, such as a veto on sharing the pound and President Obama’s support for the union, didn’t appear to be having much effect on voters.

    “There’s reason for Yes Scotland to be pleased, and reason for Better Together to be worried.

    “As ever through this referendum campaign, there’s a degree of uncertainty, but you can’t discount it as ‘wavy lines’ [as Better Together once called unhelpful polls], when two companies come up with record poll shares for Yes. The advice to Better Together is, find ways to appeal to people using a far greater sensitivity to the Scottish psyche.”

    SNP sources last night insisted that the gender gap was closing, with the party hoping for a late burst of support for Yes among women just before polling day, as happened with female support for the SNP in the 2011 election. The First Minister recently suggested the lower level of support for independence among women was due to them taking longer to mull over the issues before making their decision.

    The new Panelbase poll also found 55% of voters (discounting don’t knows) were more likely to vote Yes if they felt the 2015 general election would produce another Tory-led government at Westminster, and 50% said they were more likely to vote Yes if a Labour government was imminent.

    However, Prof Curtice said he was “sceptical” of such questions, as all scenarios helped Yes.

    Discounting a poll by Panelbase last August which is now regarded as rogue, the new gap between the Yes and No is the narrowest yet.

    The survey of 1060 people aged 16-plus was conducted between June 9 and 11, when both the Yes and No sides ramped up their campaigning for the 100-day countdown marker, and after the three unionist parties said they would give Holyrood more powers in the event of a No vote.

    On the last day of the poll, Harry Potter author JK Rowling announced she had given £1m to the Better Together campaign to save the union.

    Last week’s other high profile interventions – from former US First Lady Hillary Clinton and Pope Francis – came after the poll ended.

    Despite being told the gap between Yes and No had narrowed to less than five points, Better Together said: “It’s impossible to comment on a poll that’s not been shared with us.”

    Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson yesterday told the BBC she might campaign for a currency union with the rest of the UK in the event of a Yes if it was “best for Scotland”, just as Chancellor George Osborne would oppose a union in the rest of the UK’s interests.

    It also emerged yesterday that the English Democrats, a party which campaigns for a devolved English parliament akin to Holyrood, has registered with the Electoral Commission as an official Yes campaigner in the referendum.

    piemonster
    Free Member

    To be fair, both Yes Scotland and Better Together seem to be struggling with quality of debate.

    piemonster
    Free Member

    Thanks Ben 🙂

    Is that the first Panelbase/Yes Scotland poll since June?

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Yes Scotland are obviously struggling with providing intelligent arguments in favour of “independence” because so few exist.

    The Better Together arguments against independence are simple – currency, currency, currency, these luvvies love you, currency, currency, currency. There are good arguments against independence, but the No campaign aren’t articulating them. If I was a No voter I’d be furious with how the campaign is being run – solely concentrating on the Pound now, ignoring all other arguments.

    athgray
    Free Member

    A poster saying Scottish Scottish nationalism is fine because Thatcher was apparently a nationalist also, seems a bit of an own goal to me.

    wanmankylung
    Free Member

    And what exactly is wrong with scottish nationalism?

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    To be fair, both Yes Scotland and Better Together seem to be struggling with quality of debate

    Nothing could live up to the high brow debate on here so it is hardly surprising you are disappointed by the real world

    piemonster
    Free Member

    And what exactly is wrong with scottish nationalism?

    I dislike nationalism. And patriotism. It’s just another case of ‘us and them’ that as a species we should learn to do without.

    Not singling out Scottish, or English in particular. Literally all of it on a global scale. There should be no ‘us and them’ just ‘us’

    The same goes for anything that drives these things btw. Which is a fair few things.

    I’m English by chance*, human by design.

    *well, by swimming.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    I dislike nationalism. And patriotism. It’s just another case of ‘us and them’ that as a species we should learn to do without

    Absolutely. Scottish independence isn’t about nationalism for me, it’s about changing to a batter system of government.

    piemonster
    Free Member

    And that Ben. In spite of disagreeing with you on many things. Is why we are ticking the same box.

    piemonster
    Free Member

    it’s about changing to a batter system of government.

    Only in Scotland 😆

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    😆

    two kinds of nationlaism IMHO – had this debate with ernie

    A pride in your roots and your origins

    Nasty jingoistic/zenophobic nationalism

    I am not a fan of either but the former seems to be a near universal human trait and the later seems to exist in more people than those who are indifferent to he place that os the luck/accident of their birth. Few would admire the later and many would admire the former

    FWIW on that issue i will always correct anyone who says I am english – do have an english accent so not that surprising- but dont get correct if they call me a northerner.

    Identity is such a strange issue tbh.

    I cannot claim it is anythign other than the place of my birth as I have never chosen to live there as an adult and I dont want to do a Connerey

    piemonster
    Free Member

    Identity is such a strange issue tbh.

    Robert Kull’s book ‘Solitude’ is a good read. In a round about way quite insightful. Even if you don’t find it insightful, it’s an interesting read regardless.

    I’d have chanted less admittedly.

    konabunny
    Free Member

    And what exactly is wrong with scottish nationalism?

    What’s right with it?

    bencooper
    Free Member

    it’s about changing to a batter system of government.
    Only in Scotland

    Ha, Freudian slip 😀

    bencooper
    Free Member

    And what exactly is wrong with scottish nationalism?

    What’s right with it?

    I suppose we have to define what Scottish nationalism is. I think we can all agree that, for some reason or another, public opinion is different in Scotland on a range of issues. That’s nothing to do with country of birth, it’s a shared cultural thing.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    wanmankylung – Member
    You see when you have to go for an attack on the intelligence of the other side because you have no better arguments to make – it means you have lost.

    (Leaving aside the stupidity of the Thatcher poster), on the contrary, this is an important point. YS’s campaign from the start (as exemplified by the Book of Dreams) is an insult to anyone’s intelligence. Blatant lies, deliberate manipulation and deceit. The insult to intelligence is believing that people will swallow it. Fortunately the accusation cannot be made for the majority of Scots as the polls indicate.

    But if it needs to be said that one has to be a fool to swallow such nonsense, then so be it. The fools in Europe who swallowed a half baked political projects without sensible foundation are paying the price now. If only they had been warned…..

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