Osbourne says no to currency union.

The poster’s theme also ignores the most obvious contemporary theme in modern politics

It also chooses to ignore another fact – can anyone think of a country that voluntarily chose to give up its own independence prior to 1945 😆

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, eh Scotland 😈

can anyone think of a country that voluntarily chose to give up its own independence prior to 1945

Just the 2 Ninfan

In what sense? Is it not a Western capitalist democracy then?

We can predict that iS will be a Western capitalist democracy (there I go answering my own questions). All of the things the fairy tale merchants think can be changed in an iS are fundamental issues with a Western capitalist democracy.

I must have missed the policy to get rid of that

Anyone who seeks to change things and try and offer some alternative must conjure up a system that is at once perfect in every respect or be lambasted for being too wee/poor/stupid/Bravehearted/anti-English/alcoholic/whatever the casual, snidey insult du jour happens to be.

Well some suggestion of how you’re planning to make any real difference whilst you’re still living in a capitalist state effectively controlled by big business might be a start. It’s far easier to knock those asking the question though.

Not one has ever asked to give it up again

Actually I can think of 18 – or maybe 28 34

Using the best analogy i can muster, what is the point in kids moving out when they will still have to do all the same things ? They can only leave if they choose to move to a Yurt or to subsistence farming or to something else radically different and anything else is not worth the cost or effort.

If you live in the granny flat above the garage, do you think that giving it its own front door will change your life?

Reading through these posts, the fundamental negative proposed by the NO team seems to be that Scotland, unlike all the other countries that have become independent since 1945, will be unable to run its own affairs

No, that’s toss. If Macedonia can survive as an independent state, then Scotland can too.

The proposal is that Scotland should not bother becoming one of those countries that has declared independence since 1945 because it won’t lead to worthwhile positive outcomes for its citizens.

In how many territories has there been an independence movement that was rejected or failed? Iran, Iraq, Spain, Turkey, Russia, Moldova, Israel, Morocco, South Africa all had territories in which independence failed to fly. What does that mean?

aracer – Member
seosamh77 » Aracer. The only evidence we have to go on is the performance of the Scottish parliament. The evidence there is pretty clear that it is different from Westminster.
In what sense? Is it not a Western capitalist democracy then?

Are all western capitalist democracies the same? I gave you reasons on the previous page why it has already diverged from westminster.

Western Democracy is not a one size fits all proposition.

StefMcDef – Member

good post.

Sorry – and just to be clear, the cupped hands candle is balls too. There have been countries that gave up their independence having gained it since 1945: off the top of my head, Syria and Egypt formed the United Arab Republic (which was a disaster), Taganyika and Zanzibar formed Tanzania, South Yemen merged with North Yemen to form just Yemen, the independent Trucial States formed the United Arab Emirates… There are probably more of which I am ignorant.

In fundamental structural terms – the sort of things which would need to be changed to bring about the fairy tale – yes.

I gave you reasons on the previous page why it has already diverged from westminster.

The things which have changed despite you not being independent?

aracer – Member
seosamh77 » Are all western capitalist democracies the same?
In fundamental structural terms – the sort of things which would need to be changed to bring about the fairy tale – yes.

pish.

We can predict that iS will be a Western capitalist democracy (there I go answering my own questions). All of the things the fairy tale merchants think can be changed in an iS are fundamental issues with a Western capitalist democracy

OK what they said was

it becomes slightly difficult to quantify how radical an IS will be

I am not sure how you wish to construe that as what you have said
Could you explain?

Well some suggestion of how you’re planning to make any real difference whilst you’re still living in a capitalist state effectively controlled by big business might be a start

You sure you would not then call it a fairy tale:roll:
One does not need to have a radical change for independence to be a reasonable choice – I have no idea how you can maintain a straight face in demanding that and then calling any proponent of this “fairy tale “

What has happened on this thread its like an alternative threadeverse where everyone loses all sense of their rational faculties

What kind of western capitalist democracy should Scotland look like?

If you live in the granny flat above the garage, do you think that giving it its own front door will change your life?

Well my life will be better so yes
Is scotland a granny flat to england then?

I assume those of us who have not returned to our parents home or have left did so to enhance our lifes and considered them enhanced
I doubt we all engaged in radical change even though we wanted freedom.

Still confused by aracer both demanding its radical and then saying it fairy tale when it is.

I gave you reasons on the previous page why it has already diverged from westminster.
The things which have changed despite you not being independent?

yip, And it’s follows, the more power you have the more you can change.

konabunny – Member
What kind of western capitalist democracy should Scotland look like?

Which ever it decides.

…at the moment, it’s devo reverse. Allow those dreadful folk in Westminster to keep setting the main instruments of policy, only this time you have no representation in this process at all.

A very, very odd model even for a fairy tale.

What kind of western capitalist democracy should Scotland look like?

Well to be in the EU they need to harmonise so like the rest of Europe really. A little fairer than a tory version

…at the moment, it’s devo reverse. Allow those dreadful folk in Westminster to keep setting the main instruments of policy, only this time you have no representation in this process at all.

A very, very odd model even for a fairy tale.

You’ve already told us a currency union won’t happen, so please explain why having our own MEP to represent us and out interests is having less representation that we have now? Oh thats right, we’re not getting in the EU either apparently, so that’s that one out the water.

Won’t it? I thought that is what AS wants? I am explains the folly of that, not what should or will happen.

MEP is another kettle of fish altogether

TBF to the deceitful one, fixing the currency to the £ is far more rational than tying it to or joining the euro, but unfortunately for him, it comes with certain conditions and disadvantages – the stuff that gets whitewashed out.

THM = LLPOF

I don’t think I’ve suggested that independence might not be a reasonable choice ( [?mg]strawman.gif[/?mg] 😉 ) any more than anybody is suggesting that iS will collapse in an unsustainable heap, simply that it won’t bring about the changes some seem to imagine. It’s those unrealistic “advantages” of iS which are the fairy tale.

Are you confused by the idea that not having a currency union doesn’t mean you won’t use the pound or a currency tied to it?

Are you confused by the idea that not having a currency union doesn’t mean you won’t use the pound or a currency tied to it?

Not confused about anything, you know what’ll happen as much as I do. And that is we don’t know.

I just don’t think that what happens in Scotland is currently given much thought when deciding on monetary policy, so at worst it’ll be no different but we’ll have control over other things that we have no or little say in now.

seosamh77 – Member

” in fact it was offered decades ago but most Scots initially showed little interest in devolution.”

so little interest that it took 51.6% of the vote?

No. Only 32.9% of the electorate voted in the referendum of 1979. And of those about half voted yes, so roughly 17% of the Scottish electorate voted in favour of devolution in 1979.

My comment that it was offered decades ago but most Scots initially showed little interest in devolution is correct. And your acceptance of facts is poor.

Or you could argue that only 83% didn’t want devolution in 1979. Question is, how many of them would rather go back now? Think about what the answer will be in 20 years from now if there’s a yes vote in September?

Junkyard – lazarus
THM = LLPOF

Now you are at it!

In which case I’m confused by why you think the currency union not happening is significant. Oh, and I think you’ll find that no difference is a best case because as THM points out you do currently at least have representation where decisions are made about the currency you use, so it’s possible there is some influence (OK, so you’ll also have representation for a few years after independence, which will be interesting, though that’s probably the point you’ll realise that Scottish MPs weren’t ignored before).

In which case I’m confused by why you think the currency union not happening is significant. Oh, and I think you’ll find that no difference is a best case because as THM points out you do currently at least have representation where decisions are made about the currency you use, so it’s possible there is some influence (OK, so you’ll also have representation for a few years after independence, which will be interesting, though that’s probably the point you’ll realise that Scottish MPs weren’t ignored before).

You keep saying I’m confused, I’m not. I’m just fed up of THM arguing that every possible outcome of every possible decision will result in a situation that is worse than just now, which isn’t true. It follows the “this is as good as it gets’ line of reasoning for voting no and its a shit line of argument.

Judging by the past actions of Westminter governments I find it hard to believe they do anything that isn’t what’s best for themselves and their mates in London. **** everyone else.

You keep saying I’m confused, I’m not. I’m just fed up of THM arguing that every possible outcome of every possible decision will result in a situation that is worse than just now, which isn’t true.

Except that is not what I am saying. I am simply falsifying the deceitful points laid out by AS, of which there are many. I have listed before the pros and cons of different proposals. In stark contrast to yS who tend to only admit the pros.

Don’t forget WNB, I am a strong advocate of devolved power and less centralised government. It’s just that I prefer to see it done properly and without the deceit.

You could trying being a bit less deceitful yourself, that’d maybe be a start.

naargh, naargh, naargh, naargh
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Judging by the past actions of Westminter governments I find it hard to believe they do anything that isn’t what’s best for themselves and their mates in London. **** everyone else.

Well at least it will be mates in Edinburgh benefiting post-independence.

Do you think if you just shout strawman at every argument you enter, it means you win? ffs!

aracer – Member

We can predict that iS will be a Western capitalist democracy (there I go answering my own questions). All of the things the fairy tale merchants think can be changed in an iS are fundamental issues with a Western capitalist democracy.

What are these fairytales you keep talking about then? Can you name me, oh, 3 major things that the Yes campaign wants to achieve, that are impossible in a western capitalist democracy?

Judging by the past actions of Westminter governments I find it hard to believe they do anything that isn’t what’s best for themselves and their mates in London. **** everyone else.

A bit like Edinburgh council then?

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/council-to-write-off-5-5m-statutory-repairs-debt-1-3398976

And who oversaw this whole debacle? The Scottish government

can’t wait to see what comes to light in the future over the who was ‘looking after their mates’ regards the Tram scheme, or the Holyrood building…

Easy

Independence means that Scotland’s future will be in our own hands. Decisions currently taken for Scotland at Westminster will instead be taken by the elected representatives of the people of Scotland in the Scottish Parliament. (Intro to the BoD)

Except decisions on interest rates, money supply, FX policy, fiscal policy, stability of (that all important) financial sector etc under the policies proposed. Just “little” decisions like that. These decisions will be devolved back to a foreign country ie the unelected representatives of a foreign country.

Not even a magician can pull that trick off – western capitalist democracy or not.

seosamh77 – Member
Do you think if you just shout strawman at every argument you enter, it means you win? ffs!

At least he was able to post the picture this time.

You know the situation in Westminster where a party leader promotes someone despite that person having shown little sign of success in their job (in fact the opposite) but because they represent a particular interest group that you need to curry favour with….

….couldn’t possibly happen in H’rood could it?

teamhurtmore – Member

Except decisions on interest rates, money supply, FX policy, fiscal policy, stability of (that all important) financial sector etc under the policies proposed. Just “little” decisions like that.

Ah, the is the “monetary union means having no control of anything at all” argument? Nice one, DO.

No, only every argument where somebody has used a strawman 🙄

😆 😆 😆 😆

I suggest you try checking exactly what I posted last time before you claim incompetence

Believe what you will. The evidence is there ask Mark Carney. Oh then again perhaps not, he tells it as it is….”conceding sovereignty” must lose something in translation. Is he a DO as well?