[Closed] Osborne. How useless is he, then?

[i]January's finances are often in surplus because of a spike in tax receipts.[/i]

So nothing he's done then, really.

I think that's the bit the BBC sticks in for "balance"... 😉

How useless - very. Worst chancellor I can remember. clueless and thick

How useless - very. Worst chancellor I can remember. clueless and thick

no room for grey in your life eh, TJ? 🙂

How useless - very. Worst [s]chancellor[/s] government I can remember. clueless and thick

Edit that might be a teeny weeny bit harsh, I can remember Thatcher 🙁

Major was grey and dull. Obsbourne is not

I blame Sharon

Imagine a Chancellor making a decent fist of balancing the books.

How about Baron Lamont of Lerwick? Seen here with his Special Adviser, who clearly learnt a thing or two

[img] [/img]

mcboo - Member
Imagine a Chancellor making a decent fist of balancing the books.

I know! Appalling, isn't it?

Doesn't he know he needs to get called an "Iron" chancellor or something and just stand there looking smug?

I think you'll find he did a bit more than just stand there looking smug actually Woppit!

He [s]bankrupted the country[/s] ended boom and bust, then saved the world

mcboo - Member

Imagine a Chancellor making a decent fist of balancing the books.

Mind you I had forgotton Lamont. Probably worse but we have yet to see the full stupidity of Osbourne come to fruition.

Mind you he has played a blinder so far. He claims Labours quantitative easing is wrong so he put the brakes on the economy big style - now a complete u turn and pumping money into the economy.

now a complete u turn and pumping money into the economy.

Or not. As the case may be. The last round of quantitative easing went straight down the ever-open gullet of the banks, and never re-emerged. Not one bit of it made it into 'the economy'. Its sat in vaults, balancing overstretched over-leveraged balance sheets. Oh... actually.... some of it got skimmed off in bonuses

I doubt the next lot will fare any differently

The banks bankrupted the country [s]ended boom and bust,[/s] then he [s]saved[/s] organised a bailout model that the world copied and admired. 😉

How useless - very. Worst chancellor I can remember. clueless and thick

So a man who has succeeded in becoming an Oxford graduate who won a dean rusk scholarship to study at Davdison (in the top ten of us colleges), and has managed to get himself elected to arguably the 2nd highest office in the land, is thick in the eyes of a bloke who has so far only managed to succeed at being a big [s]s[/s]hitter on here.

We will see how history plays this one out.

Worst chancellor I can remember. clueless and thick

Forgot about that bloke.... what was his name? You know the one that sold gold at its lowest price and er left the country in £4trillion debt? Flash Gordon, Gordon the gopher or something?

Toys - there's different kinds of clever.

Plus I reckon TJ has done more good for the world.

The government are returning us to 100 years ago when the rich got richer - and the general public got poorer - all our business and industry is owned by other countries - low and behold they have been concerned that manufacturing was down - given Thatcher destroyed manufacturing we dont have any manufacturing - it seems the only people making any money is the banks and their executives -but! they have had a 40% cut in their bonus!!!

when you have a government who are all millionaires how on earth are they going to understand ?? there is also an arrogance - NHS everyone says its wrong - but they continue to push it!
Here in Somerset they are selling off the parts of the Quantocks even though many people have signed a petition(s) saying dont do it - yet the Tory Chair Ken maddock still takes £34000 expenses and they are still continueing with the disasterous 'SouthWest One' privatisation that is costing millions.
Children in a sweet shop is an analogy - there is money, we dont need all the cuts they just decide to spend it on what they want so the 'Quick Buck Boys' can move in - we will soon be 'doffing our caps' to them - and dont even get me started on the Queens Jubilee...... Olympics etc......
I sound like Mr Angry!!!

If we put TJ and Osborne head to head I reckon the only things TJ could do better is wiping bums and be more irritating.

molgrips - Member
Toys - there's different kinds of clever.

Really? If there is a choice can my kids have the kind that George Osborne has please?

What TJ says is generally true and supportive of the many 'working' people out there - Keep it up TJ!

Up the Workers!

(Teej has a fan)

Toys - I bet I'm better on a mountainbike.

You really think he is there on merit?

[img] [/img]

given Thatcher destroyed manufacturing

Contentious. If your dog is terminally ill and the vet puts it down, do you blame the vet for your dog's death?

Note I am not a Thatcherite or a Tory, this is an academic question.

I'm struggleing to understand the angry bile being spouted here. Why is he useless for generating a surplus? How else do you expect our enourmous debts to be paid off?

Pure ignorance too say the least?

Yes I used to have a chip on my shoulder about rich young toffs but I grew out of it, worked my ass off and beat them at their own game. What did you do TJ?

double dip george?

hes a genius

funnily enough by destroying public services hes managed to save money

have another line of coke with your prostitute friend mr O

[img] [/img]

mcboo - Member

Yes I used to have a chip on my shoulder about rich young toffs but I grew out of it, worked my ass off and beat them at their own game. What did you do TJ?

I have spent my life looking after the old, the frail, the vulnerable. Making the world a better place in small ways.

Teej, by posting that picture you have committed a logical fallacy already showing that not only Osborne is smarter than you, but I am too. 😆

I'll let you work out what it is.

Meanwhile consider this:
Oxford being either the best or 2nd best uni in the country depending on your opinion, surely it's likely to produce the highest flyers? Is it not likely that those types will be attracted to each other at uni right? How else do you imagine people are selected for political office?

Was Brown selected because he was the best man for the job, or because he did a deal with Tony in a restaurant. Sounds like the same thing to me..

Frodo - Member

I'm struggleing to understand the angry bile being spouted here. Why is he useless for generating a surplus? How else do you expect our enourmous debts to be paid off?

Pure ignorance too say the least?

How about making the rich pay their fair share of taxes - like in countries such as Germany and France? How about clamping down on tax avoidance. How about stimulating growth?

A lot of individuals on self-assessment make their return for 2010-2011 and pay final instalment of their tax. Also get VAT from the pre-Christmas period coming in, and January is one of the months that most big companies make their third quarterly instalment payment of corporation tax for 2011. Chuck all tha together and you get a spike in government income. Government expenditures will be fairly even throughout year - so income up and expenditure flat = monthly surplus. Simple.

How exactly does a one-month surplus make Osborne the worst chancellor ever?

How is that relevent to generating a surplus ...?

You've conveniently forgotten some of the current governments moves already made to restrict tax avoidance, increase the personel allowance etc.

Would anyone else have done a better job in the situation?

Oxford being either the best or 2nd best uni in the country depending on your opinion, surely it's likely to produce the highest flyers?

Should our political parties not be made up of representatives, not 'high fliers'?

And since when is going to Oxbridge an indication of intelligence?

I'd rather have our cabinet ministers well educated and intelligent rather than scrapeing the barrel of humanity!

Anyone can become an MP you can see that from the rank and file but I'd rather ministers were the pick of the crop.

Should our political parties not be made up of representatives, not 'high fliers'?

And since when is going to Oxbridge an indication of intelligence?

Well consider this. The sun is arguably the most widely read newspaper in the uk (2.7m copies sold daily), it could be seen as a baromter of public opinion (or a measure of the public's ability to form an opinion) imagine what our country would be like if our democracy reflected this?

I like elitism.

TJ re fair taxes. I don't remember labour doing much to make taxes fairer do you?

edit: frodo beat me to it.

double dip george?

hes a genius

funnily enough by destroying public services hes managed to save money

have another line of coke with your prostitute friend mr O

You're using pictures from David Icke's site?

Seriously?

I'm still waiting on the lizards to erupt from Arran or whatever other nonsense he suggested.

Why do you keep harking on about Labour? I thought it was Osbourne under discussion.

Under labour - decreased child poverty, unprecedented long period of growth and low inflation, huge investment and improvement in public services. All now being reversed. Poverty increasing, waiting lists increasing, inflation up, growth down

it could be seen as a baromter of public opinion

Or it could be seen as a vehicle for one bloke's political ideas, using people's inertia and brand loyalty to manipulate them.. just sayin.

This thread merely confirms pre-determined prejudices and leads to a tired and pointless debate. No need to personalise the debate around Osborne or individual posters surely? And the Bullingdon Club, c'mon that was tired and cliched years ago!!

So some good news - fine. But like bad news how much of it actually down to one individual - Osborne? A very, very small percentage, if any. So yes, he may take credit to this tiny extent in the same way that he should take the appropriate level of blame if the opposite would happened.

But really this specific news (which may be revised at a later date) is about the local authorities who reduced borrowing, the corporations who did well enough to pay more corporation tax, the individuals who "created' more VAT revenues far more than any individual politician.*

Toys - you did forget to mention St Pauls School - the home of intellectually challenged individuals!

(edit * p.s. and interesting given past debates here, the fact that, according to FT, income tax receipts held up despite fears that the 50p tax rate would lead to either higher levels of avoidance and/or falling receipts.)

All now being reversed. Poverty increasing, waiting lists increasing, inflation up, growth down

Because labour spent all the money, it was a false promise, unsustainable spending , they knew damn well the tories would be left to pick up the pieces and be blamed.

Or it could be seen as a vehicle for one bloke's political ideas, using people's inertia and brand loyalty to manipulate them.. just sayin.

Which is why I said

(or a measure of the public's ability to form an opinion)

the bullingdon club photos remain as pertinent as ever as it shows in a simple and straightforward way the way these people get their positions by patronage and privilege

Because labour spent all the money, it was a false promise, unsustainable spending , they knew damn well the tories would be left to pick up the pieces and be blamed.

perfectly sustainable. Other countries manage it and more.

are you selectively quoting me to twist my words

I'm not like that 🙂

or did you just not spot my acknowledgement of exactly the same point you made?

I'm more like that.

Other countries manage it and more.

I think they tax more. I think that their electorate is happier with higher headline tax rates.

OK OK....before TJ goes off on one and rants himself into a lather.

Hijack

Who is the poshest on STW?

the bullingdon club photos remain as pertinent as ever as it shows in a simple and straightforward way the way these people get their positions by patronage and privilege

Out of interest, do you know how the fate of everyone in that picture? How many have "made it" in politics or industry or civil service? How many are dead? How many in prison? How many just doing "normal" jobs or not a lot?

mcboo - Member

molgrips - Member
Toys - there's different kinds of clever.

Really? If there is a choice can my kids have the kind that George Osborne has please?

Unlikely - it's the kind of clever that you use to get born into a family which already has wealth and privelige. Which I think I can assume isn't yours

I like elitism.

Synopsis?

TJ - be sensible, loads of people do things at Uni or when young that they may or may not regret be they drinking/dining clubs at one end or anarchic clubs/antisocial at the other. Remember Ed Balls in his Nazi kit? Do you not have embarrassing photos from your late teens/early 20's? But it adds nothing to the debate except making a very stale and largely irrelevant point. Your basic point has more validity if you stick to the Oxbridge question, but even this is not a clear cut as you pretend.

The real question/challenge for Osborne is whether he does the correct things in the budget as a result of the promising trends "suggested' by today's figures. Then it is far more pertinent to bring in a personal element, but even then I doubt that there would be much difference from whichever politician was chancellor or party in power. Personalising these things merely leads into the trap of being fooled by randomness.

Synopsis?

Usual

Who are the 8 folk with numbers above their head in the Bullingdon picture?

perfectly sustainable. Other countries manage it and more.

Well it might have been had the government of the day had the courage to hike taxes to actually pay for it!

As it was the spending was unsustainable and ****ed us for the forseeable future.

Synopsis?

big hitters tea party although they've run out of ketchup.

Why do you keep harking on about Labour? I thought it was Osbourne under discussion.

Under labour - decreased child poverty, unprecedented long period of growth and low inflation, huge investment and improvement in public services.

By spending money that we didn't have?

Putting us in a situation where hard line cuts have to be made?

I think some perspective in necessary here isn't it?

mcboo - Member
Who is the poshest on STW?

English ex-pat with beginnings of Edinburgh property empire, spent much of youth travelling and experiencing exotic delights now with part-time job in media friendly "caring profession"...

...sounds kinda posh to me 😆

No teamhurtmore - its not the same at all. this is a club for the poshest and richest where the contacts made are used in future careers.

its all about the perpetuation of the "old boys club" and promotion of privilege and concentration of power into the hands of the rich. You simply cannot break into this group no matter how able you are witout the money and the connections and women cannot at all.

this has where these people are now
http://www.****/news/article-447223/Oxford-1992-Portrait-classless-Tory.html

this has where these people are now
http://www.****/news/article-447223/Oxford-1992-Portrait-classless-Tory.html

Well that's 8 of them. Most successful, one dead, two doing jobs open to any bright graduate who works hard (journalist and mgmt consultant).

The other 12 - if Mail can't find them, do they have no public profile? In which case likely to be working in the City or something like that.

OK TJ - close down the Harvard Business School/Insead etc. Close down any club where business contacts are made. Close down LinkedIn or lets get extreme, Facebook. Would that make life any better? I doubt it!

I believe you that the BC was exclusive for the reasons that you suggest, not least I should imagine that their bar and restaurant/ tailoring bills put access beyond the reach of most students. But so what?

So member 2 now works for the Daily Mail. How has being in the BC made any difference to that? Surely there are non BC members working there as well (sorry X post with Stu).

So you make friends and Uni and stay with them and they help you with jobs occassionally. Big deal, that's life. To pretend otherwise (and I am not suggesting that YOU are) is simply naive.

But to show how pointless this argument is - ask the question, would you disqualify Ed Balls from public office merely for the fact that he wore Nazi uniforms to a student party and was a member of the Uni Tory Party. Probably not.

Hmmmmmmmmm. The Bullingdon Club equivalent to Facebook?

I think the interweb may be about to blow up in a critical mass of spuriousness. I'm hiding under my desk just in case

But to show how pointless this argument is - ask the question, would you disqualify Ed Balls from public office merely for the fact that he wore Nazi uniforms to a student party and was a member of the Uni Tory Party. Probably not.

Thats not the argument as you well know. I have not made anything of the thuggish behaviour of the bullingdon club

the point is that this [i]rich[/i] [i]mens [/i]drinking club is used to perpetuate privilege. Other things you mention anyone can get to - bullingdon club you cannot unless you are already wealthy

Its one of the mechanisms by with wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of the few

TandemJeremy - Member
Its one of the mechanisms by with wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of the few....

....with the background and heritage to handle it properly 🙂

TJ I totally agree with you about the BC accessibility. So we can move on from that. If you believe that a tiny membership club has a real and material impact on social mobility and the performance of the UK economy then so be it.

Binners - only to the farcical extent that any type of club/forum/society can be used to perpetuate different types of exclusivity and/or priviledge. But the BC photo (like the one of Hester on horseback) are red herrings and frankly obscure the real debate that each of these characters could be the focus of far more obviously. Dont worry you can come out from the desk - I am just pointing out that taking the BC issue too far is a complete red herring.

I'd rather have our cabinet ministers well educated and intelligent rather than scrapeing the barrel of humanity!

Anyone can become an MP you can see that from the rank and file but I'd rather ministers were the pick of the crop.

Foolish. The point being made here is that Osborne has had the benefit of a good education through privilege, which does not necessarily mean he got to where he did through merit, although if you chuck enough money at a problem it may get solved. The same goes for a large number of the current Government.

So how can this group represent the interests of the majority, when they are not from this group?

OK TJ - close down the Harvard Business School/Insead etc. Close down any club where business contacts are made. Close down LinkedIn or lets get extreme, Facebook. Would that make life any better? I doubt it!

Trying to polarise the argument into pure left/right politics. Instead of closing down those particular education establishments where these people are educated, how about opening them up to all based purely on academic achievements. In other words make them free, like all education should be.

Then we shall see who rises to the top. I suspect it won't be as many of those who currently reside in the corridors of power.

The BC thing is actually quite ironic really. Do you think that they are truly aware of the visceral hatred that kind of image generates in large parts of the population.

They certainly wouldn't be displaying the breath-taking, strutting, preening arrogance at the time, if they did. And you could put that down to the bravado of youth. But when I look at George Osbourne today, I seriously doubt he even begins to understand it, even know

TJ I totally agree with you about the BC accessibility. So we can move on from that. If you believe that a tiny membership club has a real and material impact on social mobility and the performance of the UK economy then so be it.

Clearly it does as a significant amount of the cabinet and other influential Tories were members, Do you really think Osborne is there on merit? or because he is Camerons chum?

BoardinBob - Member

You're using pictures from David Icke's site?

Seriously?

I'm still waiting on the lizards to erupt from Arran or whatever other nonsense he suggested.

yeah you wont be laughing when davids illuminatii lizards do reveal themselves
there is something reptilian/amphibious about george osborne after all

that corfu jolly where he got busted scrounging money off nat rothschild/oleg derpraska/mandleson was probably a secret lizard meeting about how to wreck the greek economy
now hes working his magic on the uk economy....

in all seriousness its good that borrowing is down

as i understand it thats only half the story- growth in the economy is also essential for georges plan A that will be the test of whether hes useless or not

El-bent - I agree with bringing higher levels of education to all completely and on the basis purely of academic ability (ditto schools). But equally, feel that it is frankly stupid to argue that just because someone has been lucky to enjoy the privilege of the best education in the UK (which take away the personality and merely look at St Pauls and Oxford) that this should automatically disqualify him from public office.

TJ - like many aspects of life, I expect a combination of the two. Is he the best qualified (as an economist) then no - for example both the labour party and the Tories are misguided in their over-reliance on QE for example. It indicates a failure to understand A level economics. So I would rather attack Osborne on that than harp back to the red herring of what he (and others) did in their youth. Where would Branson have got to on that basis?

Anyway TJ I'm off for a quick ride now, but (in a non-provocative manner) will try to think of jobs where people are there [b]exclusively [/b]on being the best candidate for the job rather than a combination of multiple factors eg, merit, luck, connections, golf handicap, political persuasion, type of handshake etc.). I look forward to being enlightened on my return.

I'm more like that.

molgrips, I thought so, just checking 8)

Well it might have been had the government of the day had the courage to hike taxes to actually pay for it!

I agree. I would happily pay more tax to make sure the NHS is free and unprivatised.

As do most forlock tugging serfs happy to live off the scraps thrown from their masters tables. Which I suspect includes you.

Logical fallacy 101 it's called "abusive analogy". Look it up.

I'm reasonably well off thanks to two things:

1) My ex marine brother took me in as a teenager when I was effing my 'A' level's up, kicked me back to the straight and narrow which allowed me to go to Uni and carve a reasonable career.

2)a 5k loan from a relative in 1999 which we invested in property, now have a mini property empire through hard work, capitalist opportunism and nous.

I guess both of things could be called privilege, or you can call them scraps from the masters table. I took my scraps and worked with them. What have you done? Or have you just developed a sense of entitlement without actually having to work for it?

I've got photos of my pals and I acting like a bunch of boorish prats at university......so what? I was 20.

And I knew a bunch of guys back then who were from properly priveliged backgrounds, were arrogant and a bit unpleasant, though not to me. I've met some of them again in recent years and they are to a man all very nice, relaxed 40-something dads. People grow up, move on, the world turns. We dont all spend our time waving our ethical purity on the internet.

jobs where people are there exclusively on being the best candidate for the job rather than a combination of multiple factors eg, merit, luck, connections, golf handicap, political persuasion, type of handshake etc

There are not any.

Its one of the mechanisms by with wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of the few

Hmm.. I wonder how many of the top 1% grew up with this kind of privilege? What about the top 5%?

So another academic question. What's the difference between inheriting a load of money and connections, or inheriting genes giving you the aptitude to do well in business and make good?

How about making the rich pay their fair share of taxes

[i]Under 1 per cent of taxpayers are expected to pay a quarter of all income tax this year, according to official projections.[/i]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/969a605e-3616-11e0-9b3b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1n1fFDkTg

[i]

When tax rates were high, relatively little income fell into the top bands. In 1978, when top rates were 83 per cent, the richest 1 per cent paid only 11 per cent of total income tax.

By contrast, the top 1 per cent of income taxpayers – a group that includes some who fall just below the £150,000 threshold – are this year expected to account for 12.4 per cent of income and 26.6 per cent of income tax.
[/i]

I went to Oxford University, and then trained as a nurse.

I despised the Bullingdon & "Piers Gav" brigade then - & I despise 'em even more now. 👿

or inheriting genes giving you the aptitude to do well in business and make good?

i reckon that ones more nurture than nature!

I heard he's a shape-shifter.

Him and Boxcar Willie.

When tax rates were high, relatively little income fell into the top bands. In 1978, when top rates were 83 per cent, the richest 1 per cent paid only 11 per cent of total income tax.

By contrast, the top 1 per cent of income taxpayers – a group that includes some who fall just below the £150,000 threshold – are this year expected to account for 12.4 per cent of income and 26.6 per cent of income tax.

That's actually just an indication of how much richer the top 1% have got, and the worsening gap in wealth distribution.

Osbourne is doing a great job if you are rich.

The rest of us need to speak up by voting against them.

Be prepared to take it up the backside till the next election - if people vote against him.

But equally, feel that it is frankly stupid to argue that just because someone has been lucky to enjoy the privilege of the best education in the UK (which take away the personality and merely look at St Pauls and Oxford) that this should automatically disqualify him from public office.

your interpretation of what I said tells it own story. If someone gets into these positions via academic ability and not through wealth and connections, then they deserve to be there.

So take away the wealth and connections in education level the playing field, and let the real competition over who gets to the top begin.

 

So take away the wealth and connections in education level the playing field, and let the real competition over who gets to the top begin.

I can't really see how this can be done, but assuming that it can be, and the competition is more open, then the people who get to the top will still be the most ambitious and the most willing to put their needs above others.
Sure they've got there by merit of their own wit,
but that won't make them any more pleasant leaders, or more likely to care about the needs of others.
But that's a meritocracy for you 🙂

When the playing field has been levelled and everyone is given the same access to nutrition, education etc, those at the top will be berated because they were born with better genes or more intelligent etc. Fairness is arbitrary.