All now being reversed. Poverty increasing, waiting lists increasing, inflation up, growth down

Because labour spent all the money, it was a false promise, unsustainable spending , they knew damn well the tories would be left to pick up the pieces and be blamed.

Or it could be seen as a vehicle for one bloke’s political ideas, using people’s inertia and brand loyalty to manipulate them.. just sayin.

Which is why I said

(or a measure of the public’s ability to form an opinion)

are you selectively quoting me to twist my words, or did you just not spot my acknowledgement of exactly the same point you made?

the bullingdon club photos remain as pertinent as ever as it shows in a simple and straightforward way the way these people get their positions by patronage and privilege

Because labour spent all the money, it was a false promise, unsustainable spending , they knew damn well the tories would be left to pick up the pieces and be blamed.

perfectly sustainable. Other countries manage it and more.

are you selectively quoting me to twist my words

I’m not like that 🙂

or did you just not spot my acknowledgement of exactly the same point you made?

I’m more like that.

Other countries manage it and more.

I think they tax more. I think that their electorate is happier with higher headline tax rates.

OK OK….before TJ goes off on one and rants himself into a lather.

Hijack

Who is the poshest on STW?

the bullingdon club photos remain as pertinent as ever as it shows in a simple and straightforward way the way these people get their positions by patronage and privilege

Out of interest, do you know how the fate of everyone in that picture? How many have “made it” in politics or industry or civil service? How many are dead? How many in prison? How many just doing “normal” jobs or not a lot?

mcboo – Member

molgrips – Member
Toys – there’s different kinds of clever.

Really? If there is a choice can my kids have the kind that George Osborne has please?

Unlikely – it’s the kind of clever that you use to get born into a family which already has wealth and privelige. Which I think I can assume isn’t yours

I like elitism.

As do most forlock tugging serfs happy to live off the scraps thrown from their masters tables. Which I suspect includes you.

Synopsis?

TJ – be sensible, loads of people do things at Uni or when young that they may or may not regret be they drinking/dining clubs at one end or anarchic clubs/antisocial at the other. Remember Ed Balls in his Nazi kit? Do you not have embarrassing photos from your late teens/early 20’s? But it adds nothing to the debate except making a very stale and largely irrelevant point. Your basic point has more validity if you stick to the Oxbridge question, but even this is not a clear cut as you pretend.

The real question/challenge for Osborne is whether he does the correct things in the budget as a result of the promising trends “suggested’ by today’s figures. Then it is far more pertinent to bring in a personal element, but even then I doubt that there would be much difference from whichever politician was chancellor or party in power. Personalising these things merely leads into the trap of being fooled by randomness.

Synopsis?

Usual

Who are the 8 folk with numbers above their head in the Bullingdon picture?

perfectly sustainable. Other countries manage it and more.

Well it might have been had the government of the day had the courage to hike taxes to actually pay for it!

As it was the spending was unsustainable and **** us for the forseeable future.

Synopsis?

big hitters tea party although they’ve run out of ketchup.

Why do you keep harking on about Labour? I thought it was Osbourne under discussion.

Under labour – decreased child poverty, unprecedented long period of growth and low inflation, huge investment and improvement in public services.

By spending money that we didn’t have?

Putting us in a situation where hard line cuts have to be made?

I think some perspective in necessary here isn’t it?

mcboo – Member
Who is the poshest on STW?

English ex-pat with beginnings of Edinburgh property empire, spent much of youth travelling and experiencing exotic delights now with part-time job in media friendly “caring profession”…

…sounds kinda posh to me 😆

No teamhurtmore – its not the same at all. this is a club for the poshest and richest where the contacts made are used in future careers.

its all about the perpetuation of the “old boys club” and promotion of privilege and concentration of power into the hands of the rich. You simply cannot break into this group no matter how able you are witout the money and the connections and women cannot at all.

this has where these people are now
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-447223/Oxford-1992-Portrait-classless-Tory.html

this has where these people are now
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-447223/Oxford-1992-Portrait-classless-Tory.html

Well that’s 8 of them. Most successful, one dead, two doing jobs open to any bright graduate who works hard (journalist and mgmt consultant).

The other 12 – if Mail can’t find them, do they have no public profile? In which case likely to be working in the City or something like that.

OK TJ – close down the Harvard Business School/Insead etc. Close down any club where business contacts are made. Close down LinkedIn or lets get extreme, Facebook. Would that make life any better? I doubt it!

I believe you that the BC was exclusive for the reasons that you suggest, not least I should imagine that their bar and restaurant/ tailoring bills put access beyond the reach of most students. But so what?

So member 2 now works for the Daily Mail. How has being in the BC made any difference to that? Surely there are non BC members working there as well (sorry X post with Stu).

So you make friends and Uni and stay with them and they help you with jobs occassionally. Big deal, that’s life. To pretend otherwise (and I am not suggesting that YOU are) is simply naive.

But to show how pointless this argument is – ask the question, would you disqualify Ed Balls from public office merely for the fact that he wore Nazi uniforms to a student party and was a member of the Uni Tory Party. Probably not.

Hmmmmmmmmm. The Bullingdon Club equivalent to Facebook?

I think the interweb may be about to blow up in a critical mass of spuriousness. I’m hiding under my desk just in case

But to show how pointless this argument is – ask the question, would you disqualify Ed Balls from public office merely for the fact that he wore Nazi uniforms to a student party and was a member of the Uni Tory Party. Probably not.

Thats not the argument as you well know. I have not made anything of the thuggish behaviour of the bullingdon club

the point is that this rich mens drinking club is used to perpetuate privilege. Other things you mention anyone can get to – bullingdon club you cannot unless you are already wealthy

Its one of the mechanisms by with wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of the few

TandemJeremy – Member
Its one of the mechanisms by with wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of the few….

….with the background and heritage to handle it properly 🙂

TJ I totally agree with you about the BC accessibility. So we can move on from that. If you believe that a tiny membership club has a real and material impact on social mobility and the performance of the UK economy then so be it.

Binners – only to the farcical extent that any type of club/forum/society can be used to perpetuate different types of exclusivity and/or priviledge. But the BC photo (like the one of Hester on horseback) are red herrings and frankly obscure the real debate that each of these characters could be the focus of far more obviously. Dont worry you can come out from the desk – I am just pointing out that taking the BC issue too far is a complete red herring.

I’d rather have our cabinet ministers well educated and intelligent rather than scrapeing the barrel of humanity!

Anyone can become an MP you can see that from the rank and file but I’d rather ministers were the pick of the crop.

Foolish. The point being made here is that Osborne has had the benefit of a good education through privilege, which does not necessarily mean he got to where he did through merit, although if you chuck enough money at a problem it may get solved. The same goes for a large number of the current Government.

So how can this group represent the interests of the majority, when they are not from this group?

OK TJ – close down the Harvard Business School/Insead etc. Close down any club where business contacts are made. Close down LinkedIn or lets get extreme, Facebook. Would that make life any better? I doubt it!

Trying to polarise the argument into pure left/right politics. Instead of closing down those particular education establishments where these people are educated, how about opening them up to all based purely on academic achievements. In other words make them free, like all education should be.

Then we shall see who rises to the top. I suspect it won’t be as many of those who currently reside in the corridors of power.

The BC thing is actually quite ironic really. Do you think that they are truly aware of the visceral hatred that kind of image generates in large parts of the population.

They certainly wouldn’t be displaying the breath-taking, strutting, preening arrogance at the time, if they did. And you could put that down to the bravado of youth. But when I look at George Osbourne today, I seriously doubt he even begins to understand it, even know

TJ I totally agree with you about the BC accessibility. So we can move on from that. If you believe that a tiny membership club has a real and material impact on social mobility and the performance of the UK economy then so be it.

Clearly it does as a significant amount of the cabinet and other influential Tories were members, Do you really think Osborne is there on merit? or because he is Camerons chum?

BoardinBob – Member

You’re using pictures from David Icke’s site?

Seriously?

I’m still waiting on the lizards to erupt from Arran or whatever other nonsense he suggested.

yeah you wont be laughing when davids illuminatii lizards do reveal themselves
there is something reptilian/amphibious about george osborne after all

that corfu jolly where he got busted scrounging money off nat rothschild/oleg derpraska/mandleson was probably a secret lizard meeting about how to wreck the greek economy
now hes working his magic on the uk economy….

in all seriousness its good that borrowing is down

as i understand it thats only half the story- growth in the economy is also essential for georges plan A that will be the test of whether hes useless or not

El-bent – I agree with bringing higher levels of education to all completely and on the basis purely of academic ability (ditto schools). But equally, feel that it is frankly stupid to argue that just because someone has been lucky to enjoy the privilege of the best education in the UK (which take away the personality and merely look at St Pauls and Oxford) that this should automatically disqualify him from public office.

TJ – like many aspects of life, I expect a combination of the two. Is he the best qualified (as an economist) then no – for example both the labour party and the Tories are misguided in their over-reliance on QE for example. It indicates a failure to understand A level economics. So I would rather attack Osborne on that than harp back to the red herring of what he (and others) did in their youth. Where would Branson have got to on that basis?

Anyway TJ I’m off for a quick ride now, but (in a non-provocative manner) will try to think of jobs where people are there exclusively on being the best candidate for the job rather than a combination of multiple factors eg, merit, luck, connections, golf handicap, political persuasion, type of handshake etc.). I look forward to being enlightened on my return.

I’m more like that.

molgrips, I thought so, just checking 8)

Well it might have been had the government of the day had the courage to hike taxes to actually pay for it!

I agree. I would happily pay more tax to make sure the NHS is free and unprivatised.

As do most forlock tugging serfs happy to live off the scraps thrown from their masters tables. Which I suspect includes you.

Logical fallacy 101 it’s called “abusive analogy”. Look it up.

I’m reasonably well off thanks to two things:

1) My ex marine brother took me in as a teenager when I was effing my ‘A’ level’s up, kicked me back to the straight and narrow which allowed me to go to Uni and carve a reasonable career.

2)a 5k loan from a relative in 1999 which we invested in property, now have a mini property empire through hard work, capitalist opportunism and nous.

I guess both of things could be called privilege, or you can call them scraps from the masters table. I took my scraps and worked with them. What have you done? Or have you just developed a sense of entitlement without actually having to work for it?

I’ve got photos of my pals and I acting like a bunch of boorish prats at university……so what? I was 20.

And I knew a bunch of guys back then who were from properly priveliged backgrounds, were arrogant and a bit unpleasant, though not to me. I’ve met some of them again in recent years and they are to a man all very nice, relaxed 40-something dads. People grow up, move on, the world turns. We dont all spend our time waving our ethical purity on the internet.

jobs where people are there exclusively on being the best candidate for the job rather than a combination of multiple factors eg, merit, luck, connections, golf handicap, political persuasion, type of handshake etc

There are not any.

Its one of the mechanisms by with wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of the few

Hmm.. I wonder how many of the top 1% grew up with this kind of privilege? What about the top 5%?

So another academic question. What’s the difference between inheriting a load of money and connections, or inheriting genes giving you the aptitude to do well in business and make good?

How about making the rich pay their fair share of taxes

Under 1 per cent of taxpayers are expected to pay a quarter of all income tax this year, according to official projections.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/969a605e-3616-11e0-9b3b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1n1fFDkTg

When tax rates were high, relatively little income fell into the top bands. In 1978, when top rates were 83 per cent, the richest 1 per cent paid only 11 per cent of total income tax.

By contrast, the top 1 per cent of income taxpayers – a group that includes some who fall just below the £150,000 threshold – are this year expected to account for 12.4 per cent of income and 26.6 per cent of income tax.

I went to Oxford University, and then trained as a nurse.

I despised the Bullingdon & “Piers Gav” brigade then – & I despise ’em even more now. 👿

or inheriting genes giving you the aptitude to do well in business and make good?

i reckon that ones more nurture than nature!

I heard he’s a shape-shifter.

Him and Boxcar Willie.

When tax rates were high, relatively little income fell into the top bands. In 1978, when top rates were 83 per cent, the richest 1 per cent paid only 11 per cent of total income tax.

By contrast, the top 1 per cent of income taxpayers – a group that includes some who fall just below the £150,000 threshold – are this year expected to account for 12.4 per cent of income and 26.6 per cent of income tax.

That’s actually just an indication of how much richer the top 1% have got, and the worsening gap in wealth distribution.

Osbourne is doing a great job if you are rich.

The rest of us need to speak up by voting against them.

Be prepared to take it up the backside till the next election – if people vote against him.

But equally, feel that it is frankly stupid to argue that just because someone has been lucky to enjoy the privilege of the best education in the UK (which take away the personality and merely look at St Pauls and Oxford) that this should automatically disqualify him from public office.

your interpretation of what I said tells it own story. If someone gets into these positions via academic ability and not through wealth and connections, then they deserve to be there.

So take away the wealth and connections in education level the playing field, and let the real competition over who gets to the top begin.

So take away the wealth and connections in education level the playing field, and let the real competition over who gets to the top begin.

I can’t really see how this can be done, but assuming that it can be, and the competition is more open, then the people who get to the top will still be the most ambitious and the most willing to put their needs above others.
Sure they’ve got there by merit of their own wit,
but that won’t make them any more pleasant leaders, or more likely to care about the needs of others.
But that’s a meritocracy for you 🙂

When the playing field has been levelled and everyone is given the same access to nutrition, education etc, those at the top will be berated because they were born with better genes or more intelligent etc. Fairness is arbitrary.