new Shand Oykel – in carbon!

I would love a Drove. Think they look stunning!

Me too
and I applaud Steven for getting involved in the discussion even if he would rather the thread died. I love the idea of things of beauty that are made by real people that you know.

Would still love another Shand

RestlessNative – Member
If you google “Shand Oykel” this thread is the top result

It’ll certainly be top for any STW user.

I’m still not getting how this affects anything to do with the steel frame business, other than maybe creating a bit of profit to help sustain the business. But then I buy on practical considerations and not because I’m hoping my buying choices change folks perception of me.

It’ll certainly be top for any STW user.

Nah, comes up regardless.

I can live with Shand using off the shelf Chinese frames to grow the business etc. It’s the fact its basically a rip off of a Trek Stache that niggles.

“Our solution is to move the chain stay out the way altogether”

Er, you mean Treks solution?

The Trek complete bike is only a few hundred quid more than the Shand frame only price. I understand it’s Alu and doesnt have Shand on the downtube, but the Trek has better drop outs and a lifetime warranty.

But then I buy on practical considerations and not because I’m hoping my buying choices change folks perception of me.

Nice underhand dig.
As a lot of people have pointed out it’s not other peoples perceptions of themselves they are interested in, but their own perception of the people behind the company they are buying from. You may find this odd but the points highlighted in this thread regarding the marketing of this frame on Shands website will give some people pause for thought.

I’ve read this thread and get the feeling that a lot of you are just trying to bully the guy. He’s come on here and given his thoughts, explained his position etc.
What do you think it will achieve by repeating the same comments over and over?
What will make you happy?
Are you happy that you could have potentially ruined the sales of this bike with all this negativity?

Some of you come across as complete tosspots with your opinions on how he should run his business and marketing. I bet you wouldn’t be so rude if you met him in person. If you’re so wonderful and knowledgeable set up your own bike company and try to be successful.

It’s just a new bike for God’s sake, it really isn’t that important. You either like it or you don’t.

Er, you mean Treks solution?

Alpinestars by Ben Cooper[/url], on Flickr

Didn’t those alpinestars have a new headset standard as well 😉

Certainly an interesting direction for Shand. I wonder if the further developments are a lot more frames down this route. I can see how full custom is a fairly saturated market and even high end UK made stuff will have a fairly small market too. So you must look around and see the loads of ‘manufacturers’ badging up Chinese stuff and selling by the load, might as well cash in on brand perception. I’m not sure how the UK made steel stuff can coexist though. If they are saying this carbon bike is good enough to sell as a Shand why would you buy the steel one? FWIW I bought a Planet X once over a Chinese carbon frame because there wasn’t much in the price but at twice the price I’d certainly not have bought it.

And Nishiki before that afaik

Some of you come across as complete tosspots with your opinions on how he should run his business and marketing. I bet you wouldn’t be so rude if you met him in person. If you’re so wonderful and knowledgeable set up your own bike company and try to be successful.

Nothing seems to get people so irate as someone buying something and selling it for more money – even though it’s the foundation of every shop in existence, it seems to really wind people up.

I soooo wanted one those e-stay alpinestars back in the day…till i tried a mates 3 week old bike and snapped the rear stays at the dropouts doing a small drop-off 😳

Some of you come across as complete tosspots with your opinions on how he should run his business and marketing. I bet you wouldn’t be so rude if you met him in person.

You do know what a forum is, yes? 😆

You do know what a forum is, yes?

I know, but there’s a difference between spouting shite and shouting spite.

I know, but there’s a difference between spouting shite and shouting spite.

Good work sir. Is that one yours? I may ask to borrow it. 😆

Ben, can’t see the pic on my work computer but guessing its a cro-mega?

I nearly mentioned Alpinestars in my original post knowing someone else probably would, but weren’t both the stays elevated on that so not quite the same? 😉

Edit: I also really wanted one of those!

I know, but there’s a difference between spouting shite and shouting spite.

For the love of god, stay out of the politic threads infecting the forum. It’ll bring a tear to your eye.

Back to the bikes. They look nice, maybe adjust the wording a little bit on the product page, and possibly disregard everything I have said as I am just a keyboard warrior with no experience of making, selling, and given it’s STW, possibly riding bikes.

*wheelspins off in Clio*

I’ve read this thread and get the feeling that a lot of you are just trying to bully the guy. He’s come on here and given his thoughts, explained his position etc.
What do you think it will achieve by repeating the same comments over and over?
What will make you happy?
Are you happy that you could have potentially ruined the sales of this bike with all this negativity?

Some of you come across as complete tosspots with your opinions on how he should run his business and marketing. I bet you wouldn’t be so rude if you met him in person. If you’re so wonderful and knowledgeable set up your own bike company and try to be successful.

It’s just a new bike for God’s sake, it really isn’t that important. You either like it or you don’t.

This is my exact thoughts as well. Some folk on here really need to get a grip.

Brand devaluation, absolutely happens. In Shands case, I think before the Oykel came along, it was incredibly easy to work out what they were all about, and more importantly what you would be getting if you bought one. Now that perception is a bit fuzzy. If I buy a Stoater, am I really getting a UK designed, UK made, boutique frame, which my heart desires over my head. Or am I getting something masquerading as such.

The fact this tread is now in page 4 suggests that the lust for the Shand brand is out there, people feel an ownership in such cases. And sometimes it feels like a brand has betrayed what some think it should be. Personally, if they had to up financial solidity, I would have preferred them to have offered less “perfect” steel frames for a lower price, than straying into carbon imports. But I’m just one potential customer, I’m sure there are 100s out there who think the opposite.

Much better to be talked about on a forum, than for nobody to notice what your up to.

Shand make lovely lovely bikes, but so do many many other companies. For the record, deep down, my heart still desires that Rohloff Stoater I’ve been saving for, more than any other bike I’ve seen, over and above what my head says!

Good work sir. Is that one yours? I may ask to borrow it.

eddie11 – ’tis something I heard many years ago but feel free to use it
😉

I presume Trek aren’t bothered about this rip off of their design?

It’s a funny one..

When Alpkit posted a trade event photo, there was what appeared to be a loop bar copy. Everyone went a bit mad.. HERE

When Shand sell a China frame that copied the Trek, no one cares about that. What’s the ethics here? Is it left to slide because Trek are big boys and can take a hit?

Probably made in the same factory/province as trek

Thing about all this is… branding/brand identity can be a pretty complex and irrational thing. I’m still very tied to Cotic, frinstance, even now I don’t own any 😆 And totally no attachment to Trek even though my main bike is a Remedy and it’s probably the best bike I’ve ever ridden. Personally, the carbon frame doesn’t fit with my idea of what Shand do in the slightest; but on the other hand, I’m just some dude.

I daresay that for some people the most important thing about owning a Shand, is exclusivity and being all artisan and that. That doesn’t mean it’s important to Shand, it means it’s important to those owners, it’s the deal they’ve made in their head. It’s the same thing that made an Orange G3 taiwanese hardtail “worth” more than a far superior Carrera

But owners don’t own the brand. This isn’t, say, Muddy Fox! Everything Shand did, they still do. Now they do another thing too. If the intangible aura was the most important thing to an owner then yes they are likely to be annoyed but that’s just a thing that happens to you, if you’re spending hundreds of quid based on something so wooly.

I hope it’s a good move for Shand- I’d assume it’ll widen their appeal far more than it narrows it.

Really?

Really.

company A known for selling good value, lower quality kit, selling a cheaper version of a premium product.

company B dressing up a catalogue frame and trying to sell at a premium.

Love a Stoater.
This bike doesn’t make me want one any less.

And if this a ‘similar’ design to the Trek/whatever, built with the same materials, by the same people, I can’t see the issue.
Didn’t it get rave reviews and a multipage frothathon on here?

Only heard very good things about Shand’s customer service.

Same with Paul Hewitt, who does a similar thing to almost universal acclaim.
He’ll hand build you a beautiful frame, but also sells excellent off the peg frames sold by other people.
They’re great frames and I’ve never heard anyone say they devalue his skills or brand.

There are so many hurdles and pitfalls for the discerning bike buyer to negotiate. I was lined up to purchase 1,000 Specializeds recently but they tortured a cafe. I like cafes so that put me off. Prior to that there was the Lance thing – i was about to pull the button on 1,000 Lances – but he murdered every cyclist who ever lived, and now this? No one will be impressed with my buying skills and refined executive taste if i turn up on 1,000 Shands that are just bikes. So i’ll be looking to spend my considerable wealth elsewhere. Shame on you Mr Shand.

I just think it is lazy and doesn’t really fit the brand. Why not use the in house geometry expertise to get something unique built overseas?

But then I’m never going to buy a Shand because I can’t stand their cable routing, so you discount my view.

totally no attachment to Trek even though my main bike is a Remedy and it’s probably the best bike I’ve ever ridden.

It’s funny I thought like this till I got my Trek which is amazing and now at least on the mtb side I pay quite a lot of attention to what the brand is doing.

What is a Shand?

For what it’s worth I think Treks original designed frames are all alloy, I might be wrong though

What’s the real fear of the brand being ‘devalued’ though? Is it that some people are worried that their ‘exclusive’ branded product will somehow seem less exclusive? Why is that an issue? Don’t you want a UK company to do well and expand?

Treks original designed frames are all alloy

They are because it’s supposed to be hard riding ‘affordable’ bike, right now a full Trek Stache would cost the same as the Shand F&F.

On the bright side, I’ve been looking at buying one of these from China and now have some good pics to look at and a degree of confidence that the geometry, etc is ok. Thanks Shand 🙂

(FWIW, yes, those in the know will obviously recognise the Oykel as the black sheep of the family but I can’t see how it devalues any other models. YMMV)

Trek’s all rigid Stache 5 is an alu frame, CF tapered HT forks

My Stache 5 is probably the most fun bike I’ve ever ridden.

The WCB-M-078 is shorter, taller, slightly slacker HTA, steeper STA, less BB drop, longer wheelbase, longer HT, slightly longer CS compared to the Stache and as others have said Trek is Alu so it isn’t a Trek carbon copy…

Reported because chainstay.

Be more interesting when the carbon Stache is released.

I’ve been vaguely considering the Workswell etc versions of this frame, versus a Stache, interesting that Shand have ‘endorsed’ this version at least, how does the geometry compare to their steel MTBs?

And because some people were comparing the concept of Shand doing an open mould frame to On-One, it might intrigue people to be reminded of the thread on here showing On-One’s ‘prototype’ of basically this frame at one of the bike shows last year:

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/on-one-carbon-raised-stay-tyre-prototype

(There are some small differences, the on-one version is from a different open mould version of the same thing, they were still claiming it was a prototype!)