new low in the LBS today

It definitely cuts both ways.

There are good LBSs and bad ones.

One near me (Julie’s Cycles in Leicester), gets a groan from anyone I speak to who has dealt with them. They prey on newbies, sell them bikes and kit that are the wrong size and pass it off as ‘most people find that a smaller/large (delete according to which item they need to shift) size than actually recommended is best’.

I went on a group ride around Calderdale a few years ago and there was a bloke from Lancashire there. He had used Julie’s for an online deal that he really shopped around for – they then proceeded to mess him about something rotten – they had probably over-offered a discount and were desperately trying to recoup it somehow.

Now this reputation seems to be spreading far and wide, but they are still in business – they must have a hard core of roadie regulars who they treat well, because anyone I talk to who has used them just shakes their head or gets quite cross.

In many shops there is a definite ‘clubbiness’ so that if you are a new customer or infrequent, you are basically ignored by staff talking to regulars, or even abandoned mid-transaction when one of ‘the gang’ walk in.

In others, they are open, helpful and welcoming.

I would never dream of taking the piss in the way that the OP said, but I am also not prepared to be messed about. One bad experience could be an accident, two bad experiences means that the shop is on a yellow card. Three and they are permanently blackballed.

You might argue that I am not worth retaining as a customer with this ‘attitude’, but I think this is quite reasonable – and I suspect most other people would too.

In many shops there is a definite ‘clubbiness’ so that if you are a new customer or infrequent, you are basically ignored by staff talking to regulars, or even abandoned mid-transaction when one of ‘the gang’ walk in.

Really? That is bonkers.

Geoffrey Butler Cycles in Croydon- thats one shop I’d go back to. Everytime I went in I thought they were quoting/charging me too cheap. Said as such and was told ‘you mountain bikers pay too much’.

Really? That is bonkers.

Yes, really.

I have been left standing at the till with the part the staff had got for me, just about to pay when one of ‘the gang’ walks in. The bloke behind the counter mumbled something like, “ooh, can you just hang on a minute whilst I sort this out for Alan?” (can’t remember the other guy’s name).

Stupidly (and not wanting to appear pushy) I agreed. The bloke then disappeared into the workshop for a good five minutes, appeared with the part for ‘Alan’ who then left. Then he said “and how can I help you?”

Since then I have tried to use that shop as little as possible.

I also remember an incident in a jewellers a few years back. I think it might have been when my wife and I were shopping for an engagement ring or an eternity ring – a high ticket purchase (although there aren’t many low ticket purchases in jewellers I grant you). Anyway, the smarmy shop assistant basically ignored us in preference to a procession of posers who she thought were more likely to spend money.

In the end I went to get the store manager, asked him to stand next to the shop assistant and announced that I was going to spend several thousands of pounds (I might have got a bit carried away at this point) in his shop, but that the attitude of said sales assistant had meant that I was going to buy from elsewhere, no matter what.

A small blow struck back (they probably didn’t believe me anyway, but the look on the assistant’s face was worth it).

Geoffrey Butler are an interesting one.

They’ve been around a long time and (my understanding is) used to specialise in selling older stock and knock-down prices. They also carried a lot of stock, which hints at storage elsewhere.

I’ve not been there for something like 20 years, but given the above if it were my business I’d look to maximise that storage by buying end-of-line products in bulk, and negotiate a better discount with the distributor because you’re taking a load of older stock off their hands (similar to one of CRC’s models). You can then pass that saving onto the consumer. Bloody brilliant for the customer if they don’t mind end-of-line products, or last year’s colours.

This does create a problem for smaller retailers though, who pay bigger prices for the same product. However, I would argue that this isn’t a model a smaller retailer should be looking to compete with.

The OP’s story is blatantly taking the piss.

However, you do have to wonder what the strengths of a LBS are. That is a genuine question. What can a LBS do better than any other bike retailer and then really focus on doing outstandingly well?

Customer service and advice are one thing but often not enough to bridge the gap to the massive increase in prices for parts. Especially since there is a wealth of information and advice available online too.

I’ll happily buy lower value parts from the LBS and not worry about the extra few quid as they are good fun to chat to and do a pretty decent job in the workshop when I don’t have the required tools. However, on higher value parts there no way the LBS can match the online retailers and that is just a fact of the cycling market.

I’d love to support the LBS but not at the expense of a few hundred quid, regardless of how friendly they are and how nice the shop is. One LBS where I used to live offered a pretty hefty discount on everything across the shop for club members and had a really active online forum with group rides every day of the week. That seems like a decent way to go but wouldn’t attract the more casual rider and could look a bit cliquey.

Hats off to the guys and girls trying to run a decent business but man it must be tough!

However, you do have to wonder what the strengths of a LBS are. That is a genuine question. What can a LBS do better than any other bike retailer and then really focus on doing outstandingly well?

As luck would have it: http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/tuesday-treats-93-rule-5-bikes/

“How do you compete against the big onliners?

In short, being nice – we know the online shops can kill it on price points but they can’t give you the after sales care that an independent can.”

In short, being nice – we know the online shops can kill it on price points but they can’t give you the after sales care that an independent can

Is it really enough though? What after sales care can a LBS offer that CRC can’t. It is easier for me to return something to CRC than to the LBS, the LBS have taken longer to sort warranty stuff (I guess the big retailers just give you a new one and can afford to sort out the costs later), etc, etc.

I can see the LBS being part of the local cycling community and having the benefits for both sides as a result of this being a massive plus. It still doesn’t really bridge the massive price differences unless the customer is either fiercely loyal to the LBS or made of money. I just can’t think what the LBS can say or offer a prospective buyer of a medium to high value item to justify paying significantly more for.

The OPs story is a joke to be honest. I’d have told him where to go, especially on a busy day. Either that or charge for the advice that was offered! I can understand coming down and asking for some stuff to be written down as I may have done the same if I was buying a new build and had no idea what I was asking for. I wouldnt insist on exact specs tho, just enough to check out reviews for the parts online to make sure I was completely happy with the spec.

As for other LBS stories, im no expert but would it not be a good idea to offer discounted repairs and service on any bike bought through the LBS? Perhaps increase all workshop services by 5% and offer a 10% workshop discount on all bikes bought through the LBS. Effectively giving everyone who has bought a bike through them a 5% workshop discount on current workshop prices. LBS have a massive advantage in being able to offer workshop services to people so you may as well play on it. If possible I would also try and offer a discount on replacement parts when the bike is being serviced. This also gives an advantage against workshop only competitors and generally increases loyalty and repeat business.

mikey3 – I,m amazed some people are moaning on here about the decathlon thing(some tounge in cheek of course).The something for nothing generation is taking over,and it wont get any better,lets just put them all on an island and they can rob and hoodwink each for eternity.

I looked at that with disgust, there are some Facebook friends who were posting about it, that I’m seriously considering unfriending as it was the online equivalent of looting in the riots, multiple orders, etc.

I’m glad decathlon are taking the flak and have said up yours to thos that tried to exploit it.

What decathlon thing?

As for other LBS stories, im no expert but would it not be a good idea to offer discounted repairs and service on any bike bought through the LBS? Perhaps increase all workshop services by 5% and offer a 10% workshop discount on all bikes bought through the LBS. Effectively giving everyone who has bought a bike through them a 5% workshop discount on current workshop prices. LBS have a massive advantage in being able to offer workshop services to people so you may as well play on it. If possible I would also try and offer a discount on replacement parts when the bike is being serviced. This also gives an advantage against workshop only competitors and generally increases loyalty and repeat business.

Is the complaint not then that people aren’t prepared to work for free wages to pay buisness to run etc etc

Bluntly if you can’t compete your going to lose anyway to the big fish that’s the monopoly they might eventually get if largely based on price.

In fact I might wonder if some of the bigger companies with supposed poor service as advertised on here can actually afford to stick two fingers to the customers who do actually take up more time than they are worth ,sales and profit for time spent and all that

It is easier for me to return something to CRC than to the LBS…

Really?

…the LBS have taken longer to sort warranty stuff (I guess the big retailers just give you a new one and can afford to sort out the costs later)…

Unfortunately I think that’s normally true.

It still doesn’t really bridge the massive price differences unless the customer is either fiercely loyal to the LBS or made of money. I just can’t think what the LBS can say or offer a prospective buyer of a medium to high value item to justify paying significantly more for.

An LBS will make most of its bread and butter on cheap tyres and inner tubes as the mark-up on a frame or bike is also significantly less (as a percentage) than the mark-up on a gear cable or inner tube. A one-off large spend is more difficult to justify for a small shop, especially when the customer may not take it, which leaves a unique and expensive item sitting in the shop devaluing. This could explain why a lot of shops can’t match CRC when quoting on a £2k frame.

Unless the shop has organised some demo rides so the customer is confident of what they’re getting, there is a financial argument that sometimes it works for both parties if the frame is bought outside if the shop then gets the labour of building it up.

However, this doesn’t negate the usefulness of an LBS, or mean that people should take the urine in one.

Ultimately though, to survive a LBS has got to offer something that makes people want to go there and spend money.

Well what would you visit a LBS for anyway?…..for me the only things, Bike-fit (by someone who knows what they are doing which is quite rare), servicing – when I don’t have the time or the tools, or maybe wheel building.

GRUM – http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-40-off-decathlon

I think the one massive advantage that an LBS has over t’internet…. You can touch stuff

LBS’s over the years have had countless sales for me when I’ve gone in and looked at a pair of shorts I was umming and aahing over at say CRC then strolled into a shop to waste 1/2 hour to find those same shorts and either another brand or the next up in the price scale and bought them there and then.

That and the sale rail !!

If my nearest bike shop did shock/forks/dropper servicing I’d definitely use them.

I think the one massive advantage that an LBS has over t’internet…. You can touch stuff

But even this is dying off. You can buy a handful of stuff you are thinking about buying from CRC, give it a once over at home, then send back the bits you don’t want. Browsing in your living room if you like… and more often browsing from a far wider range than available in store at the LBS. Now that Paypal funds don’t move anywhere for a few weeks, you aren’t even out of pocket to buy a bunch of surplus parts which end up getting returned to just keep the one you want.

This isn’t something I’m in the habit of doing and agree that it is nice to see something for the first time in a display case at the LBS… but it is getting harder and harder for a LBS to justify their place for many people I guess

Interesting discussion this.
I guess I’m one of those that is seeing off the lbs. The only time I set foot in one nowadays is if I need something today and can’t wait for online delivery. Eg I found a broken spoke on my back wheel on Sunday so nipped down to James’s to purchase a replacement. Don’t think the 66p I spent will make any difference to their year end position though.
However living in sheffield we seem to have more bike shops than we need with new ones appearing all the time. Somebody must be spending money in there. In recent years we’ve had EBC and Evans open and most recently a giant store. Obviously none of these is independent but others like the bike tree seem to be doing ok.
There was also someone renting out bike stands and tools by the hour I think (or talk of it) which seems like a novel idea.
I saw some guys wearing “support your LBS” t shirts at the steel city DH last weekend. On the back it said “cos the internet can’t fix your bike”. So in other words the only people that need LBSs are those that can’t or don’t want to fix their own bike…. This maybe a small and shrinking customer base? I’m not in that demographic. Last time a bike shop mechanic touched one of my bikes was 2007. And that was to fit a hope BB I’d bought at a price that was cheaper than online. Offered free facing and fitting so I thought why not. Wouldn’t have paid for the service though.
I wonder if things will go the way of bookshops? It’s my son’s 13 birthday tomorrow. On the list of required presents was a certain book. As I was in town on sat I went into waterstones. They hadn’t got it in but it was in the warehouse. They could get it in for Wednesday (ie tomorrow, his birthday, a day too late really). As I sat on the bus on the way home I ordered it from amazon to be delivered today. Amazon price was 20%+ cheaper. Even paying for guaranteed delivery it was cheaper than paying RRP on the high street as I’d have needed a second journey into town to get it. Waterstones has quite a busy coffee shop in the back though. And I did browse and “almost” purchased a book that caught my eye which I would never have searched out. On another day I might have spent some money.
Shops need to get people through the door I suppose.

I think the one massive advantage that an LBS has over t’internet…. You can touch stuff

Why would you need to though. Unless its aesthetics (road) why do you need to visually hold, heft etc.

Of course if Amazon actually paid UK taxes, offered their staff more than minimum wage and longer than zero hours contracts, it might be a level playing field and the high street stores may well have been able to meet your needs.

I hate everything that Amazon stands for….

If my nearest bike shop did shock/forks/dropper servicing I’d definitely use them.

Without wishing to appear too rude Hora, it’s probably why they don’t offer it to you. 😉

I hate everything that Amazon stands for….

But they are annoyingly good at what they do.

But they are annoyingly good at what they do.

Yes, a virtual Argos.

ha 😀

I absolved myself of that particular guilt by getting a coffee from an independent rather than Starbucks next door 😀

My LBS story….

…..had a bad case of stuck pedal with allen key only fitting, tried a few times, realised I didn’t have the tools to do it and didn’t want to damage anything by excess bodgery. Pootled up to LBS with mind to buy long arm allen key. Mechanic said give it here, I’ll get it off for you – 1/2 hr later and 1 broken workshop tool we realised it was going nowhere.
Mechanic said he’d try dismantling pedal, axle in vice, give it some beans – still nothing.
So, warning me worst case is new crank, said he’d try some extreme angle grindery, pop back next day and see if it’s done.
Before leaving shop, we checked chainset price from Madison, eeeek nearly £200 RRP, then over to a leading online retailer, almost 1/2 that.

Was given option to order myself and be charged a small fitting fee or go via Madison (with loyal customer discount price) with free fitting.

Next day, phone call saying pedal’s out, crank fine come collect your bike and if you bring the new pedals we’ll fit them – no charge!

And while bike was there brakes and gears had been fettled 🙂
Was told chain was almost at limit of wear, so new one bought and fitted there and then, total bill – nothing, except for price of chain.

Lunch was indeed bought for the mechanic.

So big up to Switchback Cycles, one small shop working hard for their customers 🙂

Why would you need to though. Unless its aesthetics (road) why do you need to visually hold, heft etc.

Granted for parts you don’t need to. For clothing, shoes, helmets etc you do.

For clothing, shoes, helmets etc you do.

…and this is where free returns via Collect+ runs in and sucker punches the LBS in the back of the head.

You can order for free. Can get it cheaper. Try it on in the comfort of your own home, and then send back what you don’t want for free via the local shop.

Not sure how LBS can combat that.

… and as I said above, Paypal’s “pay after delivery” means you aren’t out of pocket either while ordering lots of stuff to try on in the comfort of your own home

You can order for free. Can get it cheaper. Try it on in the comfort of your own home, and then send back what you don’t want for free via the local shop.

Not sure how LBS can combat that.

you only have to wait two weeks for it to show… 😀

you only have to wait two weeks for it to show…

Wiggle – 2-3 days
CRC – 2-3 days
Merlin – 1-2 days
Amazon – Next day, including Sat/Sun
Tredz – 3-4 months 8)

Argos.

Ah now there’s the thing.
The reason I was in town at all was to go to Argos to get the main pressie. Cheaper at Argos than anywhere online.
Maybe a “click and collect” service would work for some of the bigger shops that have online presence as well as being LBS. Beat halfords at their own game. They’d need to get better at getting stuff to shops from the warehouse though.

Wiggle – 2-3 days

PITA if you want to go riding tomorrow. 😉

Tredz – 3-4 months

😆

Maybe a “click and collect” service would work for some of the bigger shops that have online presence as well as being LBS.

Madison did a similar earlier version called Ultimate Pursuits several years ago. Unfortunately it was charging full retail though.

Dannyh,

Julies cycles is the reason why I can fix everything on my bike, they made me feel like a complete dick every time I visited, be it by bring ignored, sneered at or just condescended.
It wouldn’t bother me if lbs’s disappeared.

Why would you need to though. Unless its aesthetics (road) why do you need to visually hold, heft etc

Trying things on? Like kneepads for example?

As I have stated on here in the past I would LOVE to have a decent Bikeshop to patronise close to but the local ones to me are the aforementioned Julies Cycles in Leicester (15 min drive and useless) and Pedal Power in Loughborough (circa 20min drive and mediocre.)

So I tend to give my trade to Merlin/Wiggle/Superstar/On-One for “normal stuff”, Charlie the Bikemonger for niche stuff and ebay for small random things.

With regard to returning things Collect+ makes this very very simple indeed, so things like shoes you can order 3 pairs and return 2. My Collect+ place is in my village.

You can order for free. Can get it cheaper. Try it on in the comfort of your own home, and then send back what you don’t want for free via the local shop.

Not sure how LBS can combat that.

tell you how hot you are looking?

hora – Member
You can order for free. Can get it cheaper. Try it on in the comfort of your own home, and then send back what you don’t want for free via the local shop.
Not sure how LBS can combat that.

you only have to wait two weeks for it to show…

Or longer if you have bought from Dave Hinde…eh Hora? 😉
[recollects a very old thread on Chocolatefoot]

tell you how hot you are looking?

Hmm. Could work. Maybe have some touching.

PITA if you want to go riding tomorrow.

Look at it as punishment for bad planning 😀

Loved Dave Hinde. Its very hard to find someone who will be blatantly rude to you. Dave H fills this niche to perfection.

We should have a national windup Hinde day.

I remember I rang up his store and popped him on speaker phone before a ride and asked where my forks were. It was 😆 and mildly annoying to boot as his price was by far the cheapest so I had to wait..

I bet nowadays people just call up their credit card company and claim fraud/ask for a charge-back for goods still not received.

Bizarrely the wheel I also ordered from DH turned out to be very well built.