new low in the LBS today

If I left my LBS to sort out my bikes every time they needed something doing I’d a) never have them at home b) have to sell my house to pay for it and c) ride with 120psi in the tyres.

Had the same situation as the OP a few times, spend ages going through spec lists, what to go for, needed etc, get to pricing, internet etc, price matching, usually with them having the phone out tapping away. It normally came to one of two conclusions, pay rrp and get free fitting, or they do one, buy online, only to come back in store and getting hammered on fitting charges to save a 5er on the initial purchase price.

When they have the “guru” mates, the “guru” normally ends up being an idiot.

I like bike shops, but do always feel they are a bit of a let down, this is someone used to work in bike shops. What I want is something with the stock and prices (well maybe with 10%) of CRC, with proper riders that work there.

Had one the other day, wanted some clipless pedals. Knew all about float, ohhhh yes. As I listened I realised that he didn’t really know much at all, so I asked, and it turned out that, no, he’d never actually used them in his life…. He had not the first clue what he was on about,

That’s every store though, no? I went looking for some raw jeans a couple of months ago, wandered in, didn’t have a clue, but you can’t let the assistant *know* you don’t have a clue – that’s admitting defeat! I admire the shop owner/ assistant who nods along, doesn’t cut you down to size, but still manages to steer you right, despite your misinformation.

Having moved to a country where ecommerce is more some kind of sci-fi ideal than a practical reality, I’ve come to appreciate the value of in-store expertise and assistance, and accept that it may result in paying a higher price for things.

Listen to Trimix folks! He has it.

I get the impression from reading through countless LBS threads that despite people churning out the trite ‘they have to add value’ to what they purvey, very few know what that actually means.

Promoting skill’s days, uplift days, maintenance classes are all good ideas but it’s even more simple than that! People buy from people is another cliche and yet also a truism. Buying online is an impersonal experience. It can be prudent too, efficient, convenient and many other things. A personal human experience it is not. So, take an interest in the person who has just walked over the threshold, what bike do they ride? What type of riding? Chat about local trails, conditions. Most of all, ask questions, listen and engage an interest as them as people.

Many years ago, I sold outboard engines in a retail shop, so very similar in terms of specialism to bikes and adopted this approach from the owner. Massively successful, rewarding and the customers kept coming back for spares, service and replacement engines.

My own experience suggests that very few people are actually interested enough in other people to bother ask questions with genuine interest.

I’ve been in ‘a lot’ of LBS, and it’s a sad reflection that many of them are staffed by folks who are dismissive, ignorant, and opinionated. Been shopping recently for a new road bike, and the difference in price and spec between the on line sellers (planet X and Ribble specifically) and damn near every LBS is astonishing. My budget was £1800, now I know that prices have gone up, and my money doesn’t stretch as far, but on line my budget buys carbon, Ultegra, mavic etc, in a shop my money buys me inattentive and rude staff, no test rides and in one case; telling me I need a 58″ despite me being 5’10”. and bikes? 105/alivio, and low rent wheels.

Cuts both ways this retail malarky

Philby have you test ridden the Canyon or Rose, you may have but I’d not have a clue where to go to road test either of those.
Bikes you can touch feel test and spec do seem to be dearer than mail order bikes. And put into perspective it’s not too big a price to pay, and sometimes it can be eased a little with a small discount.
I mean that you can wheel a shop bought bike back for work if needed, and probably enjoy a relationship with the shop over the bikes life.

With so many Canyon, Rose, Planet X, Ribble etc bikes on the road now its quite possible you can get a quick test ride on a mate’s bike or from someone in your bike club. One problem, particularly with carbon, is that each manufacturer has their own grading system therefore making comparison of quality impossible between brands, unlike comparing different grades of steel or aluminium.

I really want to support my LBSs but I have a budget of around £2000-£2250 for a new road bike – I can get a full Ultegra bike with Ksyrium wheelset from Canyon, Rose etc for around £1800 or a part Ultegra or full 105 with a poor wheelset for £1900-2000 from an LBS. To get an equivalent groupset and wheels on the models I have been looking at in the LBS I am looking at £500-£600 more – if it was £100 or so difference I would have no hesitation buying from an LBS but 500 quid difference on a £2k budget is clearly ridiculous. Plus to get my Number 1 choice in Campag Athena, with decent wheels and in the colour I want will take around 10 weeks and will be around £2500 – Rose have a comparable bike for the CSL 3500 for £1650. OK it won’t look as good as the Italian stallion but it doesn’t look £850 worse.

However if I do end up buying a bike from the internet I will take it to the LBS for parts and servicing that I cannot do, so will be supporting them in some more limited way – I already buy most of my consumables from LBSs and only occasionally use Wiggle, Ribble etc.

I can get discounts at several bike shops from my bike club membership, but the one where I have looked at two bikes don’t have an agreement. I asked whether they would be able to do anything and the first staff member I spoke to suggested they could offer some add-ons such as pedals etc. When I went for a test ride I mentioned this to another staff member and he looked at me as though I had arrived from Mars – surely every LBS should have a policy for discounts / add-ons.

I think that those LBSs that survive and flourish will be the ones who innovate as a couple of posters above have suggested.

Having said all that I have never tried something in a bike shop (or indeed any other shop) and then bought on-line, so my sympathies with the OP. Indeed I will pop into his shop next time I’m up in Leeds

The OP does not need sympathy, he needs a new business plan.

The internet is a tool, use it well and it could help grow your business. Ignor it, moan about it, and you will end up like Blockbusters.

I’d love to support a bike shop however unless you are a high-flier who is working silly hours and can you give all your business to one retailer?

I think gone are the days where we looked in the back of MBUK at ads as the best indicator for deals.

The only ‘local’ that I’ll do are coffee shops. Everything else in your life is a global economy.

With any business though- how can you not maximise your wage to make it go further? Bikeshop employers are just the same. They wouldn’t shop in one shop for their hobby (forget the shop discount, if that didn’t exist you wouldn’t).

When people take the piss though – using the shop as a free resource, that is very wrong.

Interesting story- I popped into a bike shop (no where near home), browsed (as everyone does- and I imagine how most sales happen). Staff came over and asked if I was ok (I was trying on a knee pad). He talked for a few minutes and then left me alone. I couldn’t get my head round the £50 price so I left it. I later popped on here and had a moan about the price/why so much/are they worth the money?

Next time I dropped into that shop the owner pulled me aside as he’d seen my post on STW and said his staff aren’t free/dont waste their time with try on/shop elsewhere stuff.

For me, you pop into a shop post-ride and usually walk out with something bought that you didnt intend to. If I was specifically looking for a brand/pad why would I aim for a small shop for this purpose on the wild off-chance that they’d hold that stock? Hence my intent was browse not malicious using a shop.

Not been back since and wont. Sad really. I often pop into 18bikes again post ride for a browse. Again I’ve walked out with grips, tshirts, tubes. Maybe one day a Bronson alu?

Some people are just hard-faced ****s! Its as simple as that really (I blame Thatcher, obviously)

In a similar vein … the amount of times, as a deigner, I’ve spent a lot of time and effort working up concepts for designs, presented them to a potential client, only to be told they’ve decided not to take the project any further.

Then a couple of months later, you open a magazine to see pretty much exactly what you came up with, that they’ve clearly got someone else to knock up on the cheap, basically just ripping off all your ideas.

You’d be amazed how many people think this is a perfectly acceptable way to carry on. Its depressing.

Bike shop owner/employee having to work for a living and not getting a sale shocker, what is it you expect some given right that everyone through your door abandons their freedom of thought

If you dont like the game!!!

I cant believe people would go into a bike shop and do what the OP described,but then I,m amazed some people are moaning on here about the decathlon thing(some tounge in cheek of course).The something for nothing generation is taking over,and it wont get any better,lets just put them all on an island and they can rob and hoodwink each for eternity.

Bike shop owner/employee having to work for a living and not getting a sale shocker

Not every enquiry results in a sale. Try working in any other business in the land and you’ll see my point.

What is it- as soon as you walk through the door you are bound to purchase. Is this pressured sales? I know alot of bike shop employees are sales-targetted. Doesn’t make ‘LBS’ sound so cosy…

binners- I remember you telling me that years ago too. Plus those that rollover their company and want to business you again!

I think they expect that people don’t use them as an advisory service then take their business elsewhere. My feeling is that if I’m going to ask for help from an LBS, I should bung them a few quid either via the thing I’m asking advice about or something else.

Agree but unless you said ‘can you help me on this please’ I don’t see how you’ve entered any sort of moral contract. Its in the bikeshops interest to make the item competitively priced.

I’ve never been into a shop with the intent to try on/buy elsewhere. Evans would be the one ripe for this but they price match.

Why? Why are cyclists that lazy to learn?

No. Plenty of my riding mates use the local (very good) shop as they get a cup of tea and a chat. Often they aren’t interested in maintaining their bike – or don’t have the time due to family commitments – and usually they are fortunate enough to be in a position to afford it (let’s face it – MTBing isn’t as cheap as it once was).

Bike shop owner/employee having to work for a living and not getting a sale shocker, what is it you expect some given right that everyone through your door abandons their freedom of thought

You are a troll and I claim my £5.

In a similar vein … the amount of times, as a deigner, I’ve spent a lot of time and effort working up concepts for designs, presented them to a potential client, only to be told they’ve decided not to take the project any further.

Then a couple of months later, you open a magazine to see pretty much exactly what you came up with, that they’ve clearly got someone else to knock up on the cheap, basically just ripping off all your ideas.

Yeap. A certain surfing charity use a graphic very similar to one I submitted to them. But as it’s them and I admire the charity I can’t get too would up over it.

OP – I used to work in a high-end road shop. The number of riders that would buy Campag from Ribble (who sold it retail at trade prices because they were an importer, so buying it at cost) and then ask us to fix it was pretty high. We had a special Ribble-rate. 🙂

It’s been going on for a long time, but the web has magnified it.

Been shopping recently for a new road bike, and the difference in price and spec between the on line sellers (planet X and Ribble specifically) and damn near every LBS is astonishing.

Ribble tend to buy abroad and avoid the main UK distributor (very naughty in the case of something like Shimano, where Madison is the official sole distributor), and their frames are not great quality.

I worked on a couple of ‘brand new’ Ribbles as a mechanic, generally bought in because the owner ‘felt’ something was wrong; off the top of my head, the first had a bent rear triangle and the second had a bent dropout, and the specified tubing only actually constituted one frame in the tube (it was the Reynolds octagonal butted tubing, so quite easy to spot) – not technically illegal, but certainly misleading. The wheels were generally incredibly hit-and-miss too in their build quality too.

The shop I worked in had a good reputation and we did thorough post-delievery-inspections on all bikes, including tensioning wheels. There’s little chance of one of our bikes (certainly a ‘high end’ bike, like a Ribble) leaving in the condition they were bought to us in.

Personally I wouldn’t touch a Ribble with yours.

Well I visited both PlanetX and Ribble pre-purchase. The two were far apart in the showroom for service and I just thought Ribbles bikes looked ‘cheap’. Glad with what I’ve gone for. It also rides very similar to a Giant carbon Defy (but without the insulting spec).

I can’t comment on Planet X, but I would imagine elements of their operation are similar – mainly because Madison took them to court recently.

However, the Planet X stuff does appear to be better designed with plenty of input from sponsored riders and the like – of the two options, it’s where I’d prefer to buy.

You are a troll and I claim my £5.

You will need the 5 quid to spend in a shop that hasn’t realized that the marketplace is competitive

Ribble tend to buy abroad and avoid the main UK distributor (very naughty in the case of something like Shimano, where Madison is the official sole distributor), and their frames are not great quality.

Err think you’ll find this is perfectly legal according to the EU despite distrubutors throwing their toys out the pram

Mountain biking doesn’t need to be expensive. I wont be buying a 2.7k carbon frame ever. Some will- saves them 600gm’s and makes their purchase feel special- good for them.

I’ve bought my new mtn bike frame last week- £440, any replacement kit was bought by seeing who is selling what/where. The internet enabled this. If I need pre-purchase advise I ask the company or post on a forum. The web enabled this.

I don’t need biscuits and cups of tea. Arnold Clark car sales also employs the same tactic. Its a retailer. It sells goods for profit not for friendship.

Err think you’ll find this is perfectly legal according to the EU despite distrubutors throwing their toys out the pram

Depends where they get it from.

In the case of Shimano I believe it comes from the Netherlands office as opposed to Japan – often as OE – but then sold retail. It may be legal, but that legality is often quite murky.

The final customer can also lose out if there’s a problem because no-one in the ‘official’ channels will normally want to know.

You will need the 5 quid to spend in a shop that hasn’t realized that the marketplace is competitive

Most have. Some are slower to catch up, others don’t care.

The problem the OP is getting at is that he’s providing a service that ultimately probably won’t see a return. The flipside is that when numpty customer wants to build a new bike again, his LBS won’t be there to provide advice or rectify faults in his build because it’s gone bust. You could argue that this is how competition currently works (which it is) but it’s also a very short-sighted model, in which the customer will ultimately suffer.

I don’t need biscuits and cups of tea.

You’re a hard customer, Hora. 😉

A hard customer? Given his track record of subsequent spurious and questionable warrenty claims for stuff that ‘doesn’t work’, he’s any business owners worst nightmare.

I’m sure there must be some kind of ‘more trouble than they’re worth’ industry blacklist, with his name right at the top, underlined and highlighted!

…he’s any business owners worst nightmare.

Probably best he doesn’t deal with his LBS then. 😉

Given the amount of frames he shifts, I’d imagine it’s a bit of a catch 22 for them. He buys stuff but is a bit “difficult” whilst he does it

I dont buy new frames and I tend to keep them a year 😉

Ironically I recently bought a new road bike. Its my first NEW bike in almost three decades. I imagine most STW’ers change whole bikes yearly at their LBS 😀

Hora I’m quoting you here;

“When people take the piss though – using the shop as a free resource, that is very wrong.

Interesting story- I popped into a bike shop (no where near home), browsed (as everyone does- and I imagine how most sales happen). Staff came over and asked if I was ok (I was trying on a knee pad). He talked for a few minutes and then left me alone. I couldn’t get my head round the £50 price so I left it. I later popped on here and had a moan about the price/why so much/are they worth the money?

Next time I dropped into that shop the owner pulled me aside as he’d seen my post on STW and said his staff aren’t free/dont waste their time with try on/shop elsewhere stuff.

For me, you pop into a shop post-ride and usually walk out with something bought that you didnt intend to. If I was specifically looking for a brand/pad why would I aim for a small shop for this purpose on the wild off-chance that they’d hold that stock? Hence my intent was browse not malicious using a shop.”

Funny how people’s memories differ. I was the shop assistant who spent over an hour going through various knee pads with you, giving you valuable feedback on the different models. Obviously enough information you to make a firm decision on which one to buy as your later post on here was about where to buy that model cheapest!

I’d call that taking the piss! Your words in fact up there ^^^^^^^

For the record this wasn’t the only time you wasted my time and bought on the web. Previous subjects had been tyres, frames and forks.

This is the problem all shops face these days. We all want super service and cheap ass prices. Can’t have both, if you want the advice then be prepared to pay for it. A shop has lots of overheads and staff need training. If you don’t get the service you require go elsewhere. If you do get looked after then pay the premium. If you’re not prepared to pay the premium don’t ask the millions of questions, it’s just bad manners really.

PMJ, so essentially what you’ve said is

“Some bikes are built better than others” this is true of Ribble…and pretty much every one else, I’ve seen any number of Friday afternoon builds in my time. It’s certainly not the case that every shop build is perfect and every Internet build isn’t TBH this is true of any commercial operation, and for every shop mechanic horror story there’s an equally terrifying customer “look what these numpties did to my bike” story

The point of my post was to say that it’s a tough market ( mail order has always been an option) and the Internet makes it harder still.

For the record this wasn’t the only time you wasted my time and bought on the web. Previous subjects had been tyres, frames and forks.

kapow.

ding ding….

I love it when the other side of a story comes out!

If I were the OP I’d probably say something along the lines of why do you need a detailed list if you’re considering ordering from us? I can give you a summary quote based on the requirements we’ve discussed, and should you wish to order those details are saved on our computer against the quote number, at which time we’ll provide you with detailed confirmation of the parts and services you’ve ordered.

spent over an hour going through various knee pads with you

At the end of a ride, in a marked parking bay with my partner and child waiting for me? Err no. I already owned Roach pads. Just couldn’t justify spending an extra 50 for what benefit.

For the size of shop, be real how many knee pads do/did you hold? Three types max?

I’d put it at 10mins max. I don’t think I’ve ever spent more than 10mins in a bikeshop in my life. Nice try though 😉

Err no. I already owned Roach pads. Just couldn’t justify spending an extra 50 for what benefit.

so you admit you went in to waste time then? Were you expecting 10-quid pads?

Read above- I went in for a post-ride browse. As also said, I never intend but often walk out with stuff I didnt need/intend to buy. Saw the pads and thought ‘they look nice’ – then the salesman comes over.

I imagine thats how the vast majority of others buy kit outside of the internet too.

The point of my post was to say that it’s a tough market ( mail order has always been an option) and the Internet makes it harder still.

And I agree 100%.

I admit to having a particular bee in my bonnet about Ribble, primarily from my own experience working on their faulty goods, but also from the way they undercut the market ‘back in the day’.

It’s no different now (and probably worse with China only a few clicks away) but it also smacked because riders were paying good money for sub-standard equipment being sold as top quality.

You may argue it’s the rider’s fault (you get what you pay for, etc. etc.) but it still offends my sense of morality, and highlights one of the problems with distance selling.

Going the other way I suppose we should have thanked Ribble for sending all the extra servicing work our way… 😉

Read above- I went in for a post-ride browse.

With partner and child in the car? Why did you bother?

Personally I’d be heading home for a shower and a brew.

Think the attitude of some on here is that in a LBD scenario customers are an inconvenience. If you think a customer is in to try before buying on the web then that’s your opportunity to offer him something extra that they won’t get on the web.

The Hora baiting above would make me think your shop isn’t the kind of place I’d be spending my money.

Best thing in any retail business is to banish the phrase “time waster” if you get that out of your head then you’ll probably have less of them

I buy most of my stuff online on the basis that I don’t have time to go to bike shops, especially as I don’t really have any good ones local to me. However, I also do all my own work on my bike and have bought things like a headset press, crown race installer over the years.

However, what happened in the original OP is taking the mick big time I think. Bike Shops are their worst enemies though with some of the people that they emply who seem to specialise in putting people’s backs up.

The Hora baiting

*puts down sandwich*