Muslims offended again

Konabunny, can you give more input to this thread?

flattering, but there’s no way I’m getting involved in an Israel/Palestine discussion online. they’re futile and they dont even have good jokes.

CAIR (muslim civil rights group) have just been on the news slamming the recent rise in antisemitism, as they think it will provoke a backlash of islamaphobia. At the same time, I’ve just read an article by an ex IDF officer on the Guardian that claims that Israeli and IDF attitudes have hardened considerably since 2002.

Along with the rise of Hamas, I can’t help but feel that divisive rhetoric has helped fuel this hardening of both sides. Which brings me back to the original debate about fundamentalists.

Even if we accept your “accepted” figure, it’s a big jump further to declare all religious fundamentalists “nutters” as you have.

If that’s the case Northwind, why aren’t you attacking those that brand zionists evil/crazy as well? My point being, is that I still suspect many on here are trying to hold Israelis to a higher standard than we would expect from Muslims. And if that isn’t divisive antisemitism, I don’t know what is. Personally, I think both sides are as mad each other but I try to tone that opinion down.

And before you all start screaming off saying that I’m trying to defend Israelis, I’m not. I’m trying to stoke a debate about how the rest of the world should interact with the parties involved in this conflict.

And before any attempts to murder me, I equally dislike those that use similar rhetoric in regards to Palestinians.

Ernie, Northwind and Junkyard, I respect your opinions. I don’t want the discussion to devolve into who’s pwzwned who.

Tom_W1987 – Member

If that’s the case Northwind, why aren’t you attacking those that brand zionists evil/crazy as well?

Because nobody did that in this thread? Or at least, not at that point. Inevitable whataboutery is inevitable. You clearly don’t respect my opinions as when you’re not ignoring them you’re misrepresenting them.

Tom_W1987 – Member

My point being, is that I still suspect many on here are trying to hold Israelis to a higher standard than we would expect from Muslims.

I’d be happy if you’d just hold yourself to the same standard that you demand from muslims.

My point being, is that I still suspect many on here are trying to hold Israelis to a higher standard than we would expect from Muslims. And if that isn’t divisive antisemitism, I don’t know what is.

If that’s true…. isn’t it the opposite of anti-semitism? If anything that’s racist against Muslims surely.

I think actually though we hold Israel to a higher standard because:

They are a close ally of the US and UK
They are a major purchaser of US and UK weapons
They receive billions of dollars of US aid
They claim to be a modern, liberal democracy that cherishes concepts like human rights
The Jewish history should have taught them that persecution and murder is wrong, whoever is doing it.

My point being, is that I still suspect many on here are trying to hold Israelis to a higher standard than we would expect from Muslims. And if that isn’t divisive antisemitism, I don’t know what is

I think it is plausible to hold an “international community member” like israel [ my arse IMHO]to a higher standard than say ISIS or Assad and not be doing it because you are an anti semite

In this scenario my opinion is simply that if you steal peoples land, ignore international law, settle their land, embargo their country, etc then it is likely that some of them will want to kill you and destroy the state that does this
Nothing israel is doing right now will lead to peace it will lead to more hatred and more terrorists.

Would it defend it . no but i will understand why it will inevitable lead to what some folk call terrorism

FWIW as the US complained [ gently]about Israel tactics they have resupplied them with armaments as they are running out

I think actually though we hold Israel to a higher standard because:

They are a close ally of the US and UK
They are a major purchaser of US and UK weapons
They receive billions of dollars of US aid
They claim to be a modern, liberal democracy that cherishes concepts like human rights
The Jewish history should have taught them that persecution and murder is wrong, whoever is doing it.

Very well articulated, agree entirely.

Is it fair to suggest that Hamas and it’s policy of seeking the end of what it calls the Israeli “entity”, only exist because of the Israeli creation of the Gazan misery in the first place?

No.

yes

Is it fair to suggest that Hamas and it’s policy of seeking the end of what it calls the Israeli “entity”, only exist because of the Israeli creation of the Gazan misery in the first place?

No.

The Arab states wanted to destroy Israel since it was created. They have also tried to destroy it numerous times and have come pretty close on occasion.

What I don’t understand about this whole thing is why you’d waste your time replying to someone who said in another thread that they enjoy windng people up?

To all the IDF supporters read the following.

This was 10 years ago and just scrapes the iceberg of attrocities that the IDF has committed before and since… In this case the review panel concluded that the Commander didn’t act ‘unethically’. That speaks volumes about the so called ethical standards of the IDF and it’s operations (thankfully the Israeli Military Police charged the Commander seperately).

I never fail to get a lump in my throat reading this text and the incredibly sad vision it creates.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

I think it is plausible to hold an “international community member” like israel [ my arse IMHO]to a higher standard than say ISIS or Assad and not be doing it because you are an anti semite

In this scenario my opinion is simply that if you steal peoples land, ignore international law, settle their land, embargo their country, etc then it is likely that some of them will want to kill you and destroy the state that does this
Nothing israel is doing right now will lead to peace it will lead to more hatred and more terrorists.

Would it defend it . no but i will understand why it will inevitable lead to what some folk call terrorism

FWIW as the US complained [ gently]about Israel tactics they have resupplied them with armaments as they are running out

I agree with this entirely Northwind. However would you not agree that so far it has seemed acceptable to use terms like crazy and evil to describe Zionists, yet labeling Muslim fundamentalists as nutters provokes a response. I’m not trying to do you over in a game of whataboutery here…..

This comes back to my point about CAIR, who are aghast the the rise of antisemitic language on twitter and attacks across the globe – as they believe this will only lead to further polarization of both sides. If someone like CAIR is saying that, then I think people need to listen.

This is from an organisation that has been accused of antisemitism in the past.

@Bennyboy1 – soldier in question was found not guilty and apparently was even compensated for his “ordeal”.

you mean like the jewish community in the wake of what’s going on in Gaza?
Er, no.

so what you’re saying is that when 4 British Muslims went to London and killed 52 innocent civilians and injured 700 more…the British Muslim community had no choice but to publicly condemn the attack…but when Israel and the IDF kill nearly 1400 Palestinians, many of who are innocent women and children, injure 7000 more…there is no need for the Jewish Israeli community to come out and publicly condemn the Israeli action…
by your logic it seems to me you condone the type of military violence where hospitals and schools are bombed at will, civilians are deliberately targeted with women and children being killed for fun…

http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/idf-sniper-admits-on-instagram-to-murdering-13-gaza-children/

so what you’re saying is that when 4 British Muslims went to London and killed 52 innocent civilians and injured 700 more…the British Muslim community had no choice but to publicly condemn the attack…but when Israel and the IDF kill nearly 1400 Palestinians, many of who are innocent women and children, injure 7000 more…there is no need for the Jewish Israeli community to come out and publicly condemn the Israeli action…

Let’s not forget that there is debate among the Jewish world about Israeli policy, even within Israel. Unfortunately both sides have become increasingly polarized and this is not true to the same extent that it once was.

And I think there is a public desire for Israelis to explain their support for their current government. You could also ask the same question of the Palestinian people.

Tom_W1987 – Member

I agree with this entirely Northwind.

We’ve established you won’t read entire posts, but could you at least read the name at the top? No wonder you were raving at me earlier about things I’d never said.

We’ve established you won’t read entire posts, but could you at least read the name at the top? No wonder you were raving at me earlier about things I’d never said.

Well at least the first line anyway, some of the rest is a bit dubious but I don’t feel like starting another flame war on whether Israel has the right to exist. It does now, whether people like it or not.

Do Junkyard and I the courtesy of reading the posts, would you? Thanks.

In this scenario my opinion is simply that if you steal peoples land, ignore international law, settle their land, embargo their country, etc then it is likely that some of them will want to kill you and destroy the state that does this
Nothing israel is doing right now will lead to peace it will lead to more hatred and more terrorists.

I have, I agree with some of this and but feel that you are veering dangerously close to legitimizing Hamas, Hamas could have fought a campaign that didn’t involve launching rockets from built up areas. So whilst I agree with many of the points you make I can’t agree with your conclusion.

taken from the other thread on the same issue…courtesy of Ernie_Lynch…the author of the article is spot on IMO…well done to Ernie for finding it
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/opinion/contributors/2014/07/25/make-mistake-israel-targeting-citizens-gaza/13159377/

No really, read my post. I know you’ve spent the entire thread studiously ignoring anything inconvenient but

Northwind – Member

could you at least read the name at the top?

Damnit! Sorry Junkyard. 😳

Can anyone join the IDF?…do they pay well?, pension?, upper age limit?

….i hate Muslims as much as the next bloke but i’m a bit powerless to do anything about it in this country….the UK seems to be sleepwalking to Islamification but Israel can see the problem.

….that’s if i had to pick a side of course, ideally i’d like the middle east nuked into a giant lifeless sand pit, should sort the situation, no people no problem.

Pretty conclusive evidence from an Italian journalist now outside of Gaza, so he can speak freely, backing up Israeli video which shows that the first school was hit by errant Hamas fire. He also reported of the intense pressure exerted on them by Hamas to report in a pro-Palestinian manner, they are only granted access to sites after Hamas has cleared them and they are in constant and real danger from Hamas, which is why this journalist decided to leave Gaza.

Israel reported that Hamas where firing at them from next to the UN shelter.

Rockets have now been found in 3 UN schools. I don’t know how many UN schools there are so I cannot comment whether represents 25%, 50% or 100%. Whilst the UN statement about it’s abhorence about the deaths at its shelter was headline news it’s equally strong condemnation of Hamas hiding rockets there was buried in the article.

@gonzy the Israeli public support the military action as they are fed up with incessant rocket attacks which have escalated throughout 2014. Hamas has been doing it’s upmost to kill Israeli citizen with their rockets. The extent of the attack tunnel network which has been discovered has only galvanised public support for the IDF action. Those tunnels have been built at great monetary and human cost (allegedly with a lot of child labour and with estimates of 200-300 fatalities) for the sole purpose of killing Israelis both military and civilian.

The Israeli government has made clear it will apologise if its been found that Israeli shells hit the shelter. None of us are expecting any similar statement from Hamas about the 1000’s of rockets it has fired at Israeli civilians.

However as I’ve posted many times civilians almost always form the majority of casualties in modern conflicts especially such guerilla style conflicts. The fact there are civilian deaths is sadly to be expected. When you hide your weapons, tunnels and fighters in civilian buildings (including mosques and UN facilities) that is only going to intensify the amount of civilian casualties.

It makes absolute sense for the moderate British Muslim population to denounce the terrorist attacks on UK soil, if for no other reason so as to distance themselves from exteamists so as to ensure their own safety from potentially rising prejudice and even retaliatory attacks.

deviant – Member

Can anyone join the IDF?

I don’t think you fully understand the nature of a racist state.

Hamas could have fought a campaign that didn’t involve launching rockets from built up areas.

Not an easy thing to do in the sixth mostly densely populated place on earth.

i hate Muslims as much as the next bloke scumbag but i’m a bit powerless thick

jambalaya – Member

@gonzy the Israeli public support the military action as they are fed up with incessant rocket attacks

Course, they also supported Cast Lead, which followed on from the quietest spell on the borderthis century- a ceasefire which the IDF broke more often than Hamas, then shattered with a land invasion.

Not an easy thing to do in the sixth mostly densely populated place on earth.

There most successful attacks so far have been cross border assaults using the tunnels, sniper attacks and anti-tank missile attacks.

That wouldn’t involve so many Palestinians dying in a media friendly fashion though.

😯

Tom_W1987 – Member

There most successful attacks so far have been cross border assaults using the tunnels, sniper attacks and anti-tank missile attacks.

That wouldn’t involve so many Palestinians dying in a media friendly fashion though.

Um. Are you suggesting that Israel only retaliates after rocket attacks? You need to learn your recent history- the justification for the breaking of the 2008 ceasefire was to destroy a single tunnel. Not one that had even been used for an attack, mind. And the end result was 900 dead palestinian civilians and a country in ruins, and a massive increase in the number of rocket attacks.

So the suggestion that using other attacks wouldn’t lead to as many deaths is totally false.

Course, Shin Bet claimed after the war that it curtailed rocket attacks- pure fantasy, as there were on average 4 attacks a month during the ceasefire, which increased tenfold after the end of the war.

There most successful attacks so far have been cross border assaults using the tunnels, sniper attacks and anti-tank missile attacks.

the biggest destruction of civilian buildings has been along the border precisely because the IDF says they shelter those tunnels!

so what you’re saying is that when 4 British Muslims went to London and killed 52 innocent civilians and injured 700 more…the British Muslim community had no choice but to publicly condemn the attack

Essentially, yes.

..but when Israel and the IDF kill nearly 1400 Palestinians, many of who are innocent women and children, injure 7000 more…there is no need for the Jewish Israeli community to come out and publicly condemn the Israeli action…

Nope, didn’t say that, not even remotely are you deranged?

Nope, didn’t say that, not even remotely are you deranged?

i never suggested that you said that…i asked the question that while you think it is right that the Muslim community is given no choice but to condemn 7/7, the Jewish community is allowed to stay silent over Israel’s actions in Gaza?
you think i’m deranged because of this??

Maps with boxes drawn on them from Wikipedia? Unimpeachable.

you think i’m deranged because of this??

I wouldn’t worry too much about what enfht thinks.

I wouldn’t worry too much about what enfht thinks.

i dont…but the questionning of my sanity made me laugh