@ Tom and Jambalaya
you’re quite happy to point out that you think Hamas should keep firing its rockets at Israel…but Israel has a right to respnd to this to protect its citizens…does Hamas as the democratically elected party of the Gazans have the same same right…how many Israelis have died as a result of the Hamas rockets compared to Palestinian deaths as a result of the Israeli bombardment?
i suspect you chose not to read the article that indicates that Israel is the one that broke the ceasefire

When John Kerry said, “some pinpoint operation,” he was asking the obvious question: Why is it that over half the people Israel has killed in Gaza are women and children? More than 150 children. If Israel is trying to avoid hitting civilians, why are over 70 percent of the casualties civilians?

Israel claims it is because Hamas has been using civilians as human shields, but U.N. investigators disproved that claim when Israel made the same claim in 2009. The real explanation is much simpler: Israel is not really trying to avoid killing civilians.

Israel is bombing densely populated areas. Its warnings to civilians have been inadequate and ineffective. A video shows Israel bombing a home 57 seconds after a warning was given — not enough time to escape the blast. Israel told 100,000 Palestinians to evacuate their homes at once — an impossible task in a war zone.

The warnings are mostly for show. Israel is publicizing them to try to excuse its indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas. Indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas meets the definition of a war crime.

And there is plenty of evidence (from Israeli journalist Gideon Levy and others) that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians. That is also a war crime. An Israeli drone targeted a taxi and killed a family of four. A navy ship targeted and killed four Palestinian children playing on the beach. (The navy has admitted it saw the children.)

Israel targeted a hospital and a nursing home, even after the doctors inside called the Israeli army and pleaded with it not to bomb them.

The real question is: Why would Israeli soldiers deliberately target civilians? It turns out that extremist rabbis instructed Israeli soldiers to show no mercy to civilians, even children. The instructions are in a pamphlet called “The King’s Torah,” which was distributed to soldiers. (The pamphlet is available on the Internet, and in an article in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, “The King’s Torah: a rabbinical text or a call to terror?”)

The attitude of showing no mercy to civilians is present in many Israeli soldiers today. It has been reported by the soldiers themselves, in a counseling program in Israel called “Breaking the Silence.”

Israel has the most precise weapons in the world. If it were really trying to avoid civilian deaths, would more than half the dead be women and children?

The reality is: 1.8 million Palestinians are being held captive by Israel inside Gaza, and they are being bombarded with the most advanced weapons in the world, supplied by the United States. Human rights groups and people of all faiths are calling for an immediate end to this cruel slaughter of defenseless people.

But isn’t Israel just trying to stop the rockets from Gaza?

No. Israel can easily stop the rockets from Gaza at any time by simply negotiating a truce with Hamas,which it did in 2012. Hamas obeyed that truce. Israel violated it frequently. Hamas has consistently called for a return to that truce (in which Israel had agreed to allow humanitarian supplies into Gaza).

But didn’t Hamas start this war by firing rockets at Israel?

No. Israel started this war by invading the West Bank on June 14, 2014, in retaliation for the kidnapping of three settlers who were hitchhiking. In that invasion, Israel killed seven Palestinians, invaded and ransacked hundreds of Palestinian homes, and kidnapped hundreds of Palestinians.

In response, Hamas retaliated by firing rockets from Gaza, which killed no one. Israel used those non-lethal rockets as an excuse to launch the current massive bombardment of Gaza that has so far killed over 800 Palestinians, 70 percent of them civilians.

That disproportionate military response by Israel is also a war crime. That is why people of all faiths, including many Jews, are calling for Israel to stop bombing Gaza immediately and for the U.S. to end military aid to Israel.

But aren’t the rockets from Gaza a real threat to Israel?

Not really. The rockets from Gaza are small and inaccurate. Even if hundreds are fired, most land in empty fields. They almost never kill anyone. And Israel can stop them anytime it wants, by simply negotiating a truce.

Then why is Israel bombing Gaza?

The bombing of Gaza is a continuation of Israel’s 66-year-long policy of driving the native Palestinians out of their homes and taking their land. Israel is doing to the Palestinians the same thing that was done to the Native Americans a hundred years ago. The proper term for it is ethnic cleansing. That too is a war crime, and a crime against humanity.

@ Tom and Jambalaya
you’re quite happy to point out that you think Hamas should keep firing its rockets at Israel…but Israel has a right to respnd to this to protect its citizens…does Hamas as the democratically elected party of the Gazans have the same same right…how many Israelis have died as a result of the Hamas rockets compared to Palestinian deaths as a result of the Israeli bombardment?
i suspect you chose not to read the article that indicates that Israel is the one that broke the ceasefire

Gonzy, I believe the Palestinian people have the right to armed resistance.

I don’t think that involves Hamas launching rockets from residential areas and not giving the locals enough time to leave. Just as I don’t think Israels right to defend itself includes using **** mortars against targets in heavily built up areas.

The whole thing is insane.

Got a link to those maps, Tom?

Google image search is your friend. Right click the pictures on this forum and then perform a search.

Um. Are you suggesting that Israel only retaliates after rocket attacks? You need to learn your recent history- the justification for the breaking of the 2008 ceasefire was to destroy a single tunnel. Not one that had even been used for an attack, mind. And the end result was 900 dead palestinian civilians and a country in ruins, and a massive increase in the number of rocket attacks.

So the suggestion that using other attacks wouldn’t lead to as many deaths is totally false.

Course, Shin Bet claimed after the war that it curtailed rocket attacks- pure fantasy, as there were on average 4 attacks a month during the ceasefire, which increased tenfold after the end of the war.

Hmmm, mind if I have a look into that before I respond? The 2008 war? Lots of other facilities and rocket launch sites were attacked during that war as well, so I’m not sure that’s proof that most of the casualties are caused by going after the tunnels.

Konabunny makes a good point that the most extensive damage has been where a lot of the tunnels are, I’ll have to look into that as well to verify it.

I don’t think that involves Hamas launching rockets from residential areas and not giving the locals enough time to leave

so if its not Hamas who should be firing the rockets, who should? the civilians themselves?
this would make their killing at the hands of the IDF more justifiable then wont it?
as for not giving them enough time to leave, that isnt down to Hamas…its due to the IDF only giving the Palestinians what they think is a reasonable time to get out i.e. 57 seconds

as for residential areas…the whole of Gaza is one giant residential area…so where else should they shoot from? it not like as if there is a designated Hamas firing range…

Tom_W1987 – Member
Google image search is your friend. Right click the pictures on this forum and then perform a search

Well I will rephrase, any link which says who made these maps (in 2009)?

I’m not going to run around looking for something to back up ‘evidence’ you’ve posted.

so if its not Hamas who should be firing the rockets, who should? the civilians themselves?
this would make their killing at the hands of the IDF more justifiable then wont it?
as for not giving them enough time to leave, that isnt down to Hamas…its due to the IDF only giving the Palestinians what they think is a reasonable time to get out i.e. 57 seconds

Total balls, there have been plenty of reports of Hamas coming into residential areas, firing, and not giving any of the locals warnings about their activity. Hamas have a duty of care as well.

as for residential areas…the whole of Gaza is one giant residential area…so where else should they shoot from? it not like as if there is a designated Hamas firing range…

Have a look at a map. It’s not quite as densely populated as you might believe.

(when did this degenerate into more Hamas v IDF sniping ? The Onion had this one solved years ago http://www.theonion.com/articles/northern-irish-serbs-hutus-granted-homeland-in-wes,305/)

I never knew that about Muslims and Dogs, surely that is just more trad/tribal stuff in Muslim countries, like GFM ?

And surely the Daily Mail are taking the piss ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

Well I will rephrase, any link which says who made these maps (in 2009)?

I’m not going to run around looking for something to back up ‘evidence’ you’ve posted.

Will have a look.

‘Terrorists’ have a duty of care? How can they create terror if they behave nicely? The Jews are just punishing the entire Palestinian population for those kidnappings. It’s deplorable and if it was any other nation besides the Jews, then the world would be up in arms.

Aye RaveyDavey, the British Empire turned half the globe pink charming people with cups of tea and cucumber sandwiches.

No, I’m sorry but Hamas has played an equal role in escalating this situation by launching more rockets from Gaza in response to the Israelis going after the kidnappers in the west bank. How can you declare “all Israelis” as targets and then expect treatment that is any different? I deplore the Israelis acting in a similar manner but to absolve Hamas is just utterly biased.

The blame game of who did what which caused what is absolutely pointless.

Hamas have demanded the lifting of the (illegal) blockade. Could this be achieved if UN peacekeepers took over security?

who has absolved Hamas?
no one has said what they are doing is right but what has been said is that as the democratically elected party representing the people of Gaza it has every right to respond to the Israeli attacks…
you should read the article to see that it is widely known that it is Israel that has repeatedly broken the truce.
this attack has always been a pre-emptive strike designed to kill and drive out the Gazan population in order to obtain security of the gas field that are underneath Gaza, which the Israeli government is stealing for itself…the murder of the 3 boys was a smokescreen designed to whip up public hatred of the Palestinians therefore swaying public/Israeli opinion in the government’s favour in order to justify the attacks

Are you sure it wasn’t Elvis, gonzy ? or Lord Lucan ?

but seeing as, by your own admission on here, you are now beginning to see where we are coming from with regards to our criticism/condemnation of the Israeli onslaught…i’m glad that the “fog of war” is now lifting from over your eyes Tom

Wouldn’t it be a bitter irony to see Israelis appearing in war crimes trials this time as the accused?

Are you sure it wasn’t Elvis, gonzy ? or Lord Lucan ?

are you trying to say that i have, at some point, absolved Hamas for their actions?
prove it

in response to the Israelis going after the kidnappers in the west bank

can you ‘kidnap’ a member of an occupying army – isn’t it ‘capture’?

No gonzy I am saying those sound very much like conspiracy theories, but don’t worry I can show you a neat trick with some tin-foil.

I mean think about it – Hamas tunelling in a gas field ? Are you sure they won’t find Elvis down there ?

if it was any other nation besides the Jews, then the world would be up in arms.

The Jews. Well, the Jews and the Russians. Okay, the Jews, the Russians and the Congolese. But it it was anyone else fighting in a war in which civilians died, the world would be up in arms. Well, the Jews, the Russians, the Congolese, and the Syrians. And the Nigerians. And maybe the Pakistanis – well, and the Afghans.

But if it were anyone else, the world would totally be up in arms.

kidnap sounds better…as it takes it out of the military conflict context to whip up public uproar

from channel4 news: #Israeli soldier captured by #Hamas is British born cousin of Israel´s Defence minister #c4news understands

Soldier kidnapped now which will most probably prompt the IDF to take the gloves off and get really nasty for 24hrs or so.

And to the invevitable question no they haven’t got really nasty yet, which is terrorfying

Hamas tunelling in a gas field

how deep do you think the gas fields are? a couple of metres under the soil or have the Palestinians suddenly acquired the technology to tunnel hundreds of meters below surface…which if it is that latter then the Israelis bombing Gaza on the context that they are trying to destroy the tunnels would be a bit useless as they wont do any damage to something that deep in the ground…

for your information Elvis went home..
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9YfEZtQBtY[/video]

not much of a conspiracy theory now is it?

War and Natural Gas: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza’s Offshore Gas Fields

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12971-the-truth-about-israels-new-war-on-gaza–the-energy-rush

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israel-invading-secure-palestinian-4bn-gas-reserves-1457356

from channel4 news: #Israeli soldier captured by #Hamas is British born cousin of Israel´s Defence minister #c4news understands

I wonder if he’ll return back having been radicalised, and potentially wage a terrorist campaign in Britain? Are there any more British born jews, who having been indoctrinated in synagogues across the country, and are now waging a holy war (kosher jihad?), who will present a threat to national security and need to be monitored on their return

And to the invevitable question no they haven’t got really nasty yet, which is terrorfying

what could be nastier than killing women and children?
they have been using flechette shells, white phosphorous and allegedly depleted uranium shells…i dont think it can get any worse

EDIT: i forgot to add this link
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-israeli-military-using-flechette-rounds-in-gaza-strip-9617480.html

interesting point well made, binners.

I wonder if he’ll return back having been radicalised, and potentially wage a terrorist campaign in Britain? Are there any more British born jews, who having been indoctrinated in synagogues across the country, and are now waging a holy war (kosher jihad?), who will present a threat to national security and need to be monitored on their return

seeing as Cameron and his cronies refuse to criticise/condemn Israel, i wouldnt be surprised if he is given a hero’s welcome…at worst he will play the victim card and get away with it

gonzy: it could get a lot worse, imagine if they they turned the whole of Gaza into a freefire zone, with the weapons they have at their disposal they could literaly level the place. It depends how the people who have the soldier play it.

but if they did that they would get worldwide condemnation including the US and UK…who wouldn’t have any choice but to condemn them…they are being very clever about their method of extermination…
why else are they killing women and children? to eradicate the future population.
why are they targeting the hospitals? to prevent the injured from receiving medical treatment.
why target ambulances? so they cannot reach the injured and dying.
why target the reporting media? so what they are doing cannot be reported by anyone but those who are sympathetic or ignorant to their cause.
why target the power station? to cut off the power supply so that basics such as food cannot be safely stored, thus increasing famine and risk of disease from consuming poorly kept food.
why cut off the water supply? to starve them out and increase the risk of water-borne diseases through the drinking of unclean water.
why target UN buildings? to create an environment that the UN deems is unsafe for its staff and orders an immediate withdrawal.

Thats why I said 24hrs untill America tell them to rein back.

I dont agree with your statement above, if they had been deliberately targetting women and children then in the few weeks this war has been going on for they could of killed tens of thousands.

The loss of one child any child is too many and Israel should stop right now what ever the perceived provocation from Hamas.

The Jews. Well, the Jews and the Russians. Okay, the Jews, the Russians and the Congolese. But it it was anyone else fighting in a war in which civilians died, the world would be up in arms. Well, the Jews, the Russians, the Congolese, and the Syrians. And the Nigerians. And maybe the Pakistanis – well, and the Afghans.

Maybe it was only in Viz but I’m sure all of these conflicts have been harshly critisized by world leaders.You forgot Iraq by the way.

hels – Member

Aye RaveyDavey, the British Empire turned half the globe pink charming people with cups of tea and cucumber sandwiches.

There is no logical connection between the behaviour of the British Empire and the behaviour of Israel today.

At one stage the British Empire supported slavery and used slaves extensively, I never heard anyone justify Apartheid on those grounds.

ernie, your unlikely to have a logical conversation with anyone who believes that the worlds natural gas reservrs are located 10-20 meteres below the ground!

Of all the comparasions made about this conflict and others from history the one that gets the least mention, and is my mind the relevant, is the treatment of the Jews in the ghettos of eastern europe during world war 2, perhaps the idea of the oppressed becoming the oppressor is a little to un-comfortable for some of those that bang the drum for Israel.

You’re just not taking this arguing on the internet seriously enough Hels 😆 You’re stopping us fixing the world’s ills!

but seeing as, by your own admission on here, you are now beginning to see where we are coming from with regards to our criticism/condemnation of the Israeli onslaught…i’m glad that the “fog of war” is now lifting from over your eyes Tom

Gonzy, I understand and sympathize with your opinions. Respectfully, I disagree with the extent of the blame you place on Israel. My position is entirely based on my opinion that there needs to be moderate dialogue between the two sides to resolve this.

If you could find it within you to try and build dialogue with Jewish Israeli supporters local to you, then you may actually play a small part in ending this.

Sometimes it is futile to talk surely STW, if not life, has taught you this

Some people you just cannot reach

I’ve already explained why I think the Israelis have a seige mentality Junkyard and there are plenty of Palestinian academics who feel that boycotts have only given more ammo to the right wingers within Israel.

If you can come up with a counter to that, other than a picture of Chamberlain – be my guest. I really don’t think a ratcheting up the rhetoric, outside of the condemnation of the actions by both sides, is good for the conflict.