More Tory Lies?

The point is the hypocrisy that this exposes in the heart of the Tory party – or if you want to be less generous lies and corruption

surely the message from the ashcroft story is that political party funding is inherently flawed, electioneering is an expensive business donors on the scale of ashcroft expect a return on their investments
He wants power and influence with the most powerful man in the country so So hes buying it, doesnt sound very much like democracy

Because it isn't. Anyone who actually thinks their vote means something is deluded.

Holy thread insurrection batman!

Ashcroft has now admitted to being non dom for tax despite leading us to believe he would become domiciled for tax purposes once ennobled. tory party policy is that non doms should not be in parliament. Lots of weasel words from the tories

Hypocrite and a liar.

Funny watching them squirm though wasn't it?
Is it just me or does the Eton Mess seem to be in self destruct mode recently?
Dave's uncomfortable interviews with Johann Hari and Jenni Murray weren't exactly a PR triumph.

And now you're back, can we get round to finding out what's happened to Ernie – not been insulted by the little scamp for weeks.

Perhaps you ought to find a source to back up your assertion that he said he would become domiciled in the UK before you accuse of him of hypocrisy.

The actual text of his promise has not been released under FOI yet. However the public pronouncements at the time and since have made it clear that tory party policy is that he should be domiciled in the UK and paying tax, and that he would comply with this. He might have complied with the letter of this but he sure as heck has not complied with the spirit.

I think you will find it on his website, he said he would become permanently resident in the UK, that is not the same as being domiciled. Domicile is not elective it is a matter of fact, hence the need for the concept of deemed domicile for Inheritance Tax (and IHT only) where you are regarded as domiciled if you live in the UK for 17 out of 20 years.

He did not give an undertaking regarding domicile because he couldn't change it at a whim, whereas he could regarding residence which he met.

Mefty – thats what he is claiming but not what others understood it to mean. Until the actual text has been released we don't know but its clear he has intended to mislead and some things are not resolved such as his electoral status – Cameron has said he is registered to vote but no one has been able to uncover him on any register.

He may have complied with the actual words of the declaration but he sure as heck has not done so with the spirit of it and nor does he meet the standard espoused in tory party policy.

So – a hypocrite and a liar

Just to bring a little balance to what Comrade Jeremy has said:

"My precise tax status therefore is that of a “non-dom”. Two of Labour’s biggest donors – Lord Paul (recently made a privy councillor by the Prime Minister) and Sir Ronald Cohen, both long-term residents of the UK, are also “non-doms”."

Statement from Lord Ashcroft.

Just because some choose to misunderstand something to suit their political purposes does not make one a hypocrite or a liar. As I stated above you can not change your domicile on a whim, you can change your residence. He undertook to change what he was able to and did so. As he is resident here he is entitled to vote there is no requirement to be domiciled here to vote.

As far as Tory policy is concerned they want to change the law so that a member of either House is deemed to be domiciled and resident here for tax purposes. It needs to be done this way because as stated already domicile can not be changed on a whim.

A neat sidestepping of the important questions. The two labour peers have never tried to hide their status nor have they been caught telling lies.

Ashcroft has been caught out lying as has Cameron over this and no amount of weasel words can hide that. Cameron has said Ashcroft is registered to vote – he is not. He said he would be domiciled for tax purposes and he is not. Tory party policy is that all in the commons / lords should be full UK residents as stated in the past. Now modified to say only if in the legislature.

When the full text is released we will see more. It took a FOI request and years of fighting to get this admission from Ashcroft

No point in letting lack of sources get in the way of a rant. Show us where any this was said TJ, Ashcroft's memo to Hague detailing the terms of the undertaking are on his website.

We do not know yet exactly what the agreement was – thats going to be released under FOI soon.

As for cameron – he was quoted as saying that Ashcroft was registered to vote but no one can find him on the electoral register. The change in emphasis on the policy is clear for anyone to see from numerous public pronouncements on this. You may choose to believe its all above board. It clearly is not

Source?

Any newspaper website or BBC.

Link?

mefty – The truth doesn't really matter in this case.
It's the outright refusal to answer the question, the dodgy manoeuvring and the perception that the public have been misled AGAIN that is the real story.

The Tories will never convince the electorate that they are not the party of privilege unless they are honest and transparent.
Thankfully in this case they have prevaricated, misled and refused to answer questions to which they admitted they knew the answers.

Just goes to further undermine Dave's assertions that they are the party of the people.

RS – I can see your point of view and have some sympathy with it, I am just not too keen on false allegations.

i think its unfair to single out the torries
although they have been particularly sneaky and evasive about this one

it just highlights that
a) the tax system is more a collection of loopholes for the privileged
b) the party political funding system is dirtier than rab c nesbits y-fronts
c) the way we 'elect' mps; commomns and lords is massively flawed and needs overhauling depserately

mefty – what false allegations?

TJ – just provide some sources

For what?

Gentlemen, shall we just call it a draw?

The point is that the BBC is now leading with this story as another example of political sleaze – later this afternoon they will start to emphasize Ashcroft's statement as quoted above by Cranberry, just to give the story some legs and to provide some balance.

Still doesn't negate the fact that the Tories have known the answer to this question all along and refused to provide an answer – hopefully this is what the electorate will remember.

Where Ashcroft said he was domiciled in the UK

Where David Cameron said he was registered to vote (although he is entitled to based on his residency)

After Ashcroft's nomination for a peerage was rejected in 1999 – in part because he was then considered a tax exile – Hague wrote to Downing Street demanding that it reverse its decision. Hague said Ashcroft intended to become resident in Britain for tax and added: "This decision will cost him (and benefit the Treasury) tens of millions a year in tax, yet he considers it worthwhile."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/31/tory-donor-lord-ashcroft-transparency-lib-dems

Clear quote with the implication Ashcroft would be paying UK tax on all his income.

Ashcroft has given more than £5m to the Tories in recent years. The Observer established last year that Bearwood Corporate Services Limited, the British-based company Ashcroft uses to make donations to the Tories, is ultimately controlled by a company in Belize, Stargate Holdings. At the time, a Conservative spokesman said all the donations complied with the law. The Electoral Commission launched a formal investigation into the donations in January.

Edit – crossed posts.

Both those things are clear in the public domain. On the residency Ashcroft may have complied with the letter of the undertaking but certainly not the spirit. I'll get you the stuff on Cameron.

Same article – the mechanism that Ashcroft uses to transfer money tot eh tory party is being investigated and on the surface is questionable at best.

Plenty more out there about the constantly changing tory policy on this area, plenty more there about the parallel investigations into him and the information commissioners remarks, easy to find Camaron quoting that Ashcroft is registered to vote but no one can find him on the roll.

The point about being registered to vote is a complete red herring because sitting Lords aren't entitled to vote anyway.

He did become resident for tax purposes as Hague said he would. Still waiting for sources.

mefty – it does matter because of the donations and because Cameron has said he is registered to vote

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-blue-baron-how-the-tories-rely-on-ashcroft-1812270.html

On Sunday, David Cameron said donations by Lord Ashcroft were "within the law" because he was resident in the UK and on the electoral register

.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8416116.stm

Now no one can find him on the electoral roll.

Mefty – nothing will convince you so I shall not bother any more.

He might just be within the letter of the declarations and statements from various people but he is not within the spirit. He is under investigation on several fronts. The tory party policy has clearly been changed to accomodate him. The tory party have done their very best to avoid the questions and to frustrate the investigations into the holding company and the information commissioner has been very scathing.

It stinks to high heaven.

The only quote is "within the law" the rest appears to be supposition.

You will not persuade me because as so frequently you rant and rave according to your prejudices without being able to back it up factually. This is playing out much as I predicted it would on the first page of this thread.

Found the full quote here, the BBC report was supposition.

“If people give money individually, they have to be resident in the UK and on the electoral register and that’s a rule that we apply and if it’s a UK company giving you the money it has to be a proper operating company.

“So we always make those checks, all the donations that have been made by Lord Ashcroft or by any British companies associated with him. As far as we’re concerned, we’ve checked and they are within the law. The Labour party and the Liberal Democrats should do exactly the same thing.”

Mefty. You are the blind one here. Information commissioner criticises him, his holding company is under investigation.

Its my prejudice to hate hypocrisy cant and humbug for a ny politicians.

Ashcroft has been forced into a declaration by the information commissioner, and is still blocking the investigation into his holding company.

there will be more lies to come out yet but the tories are hoping it will be delayed until after the election.

We have a liar bankrolling a liar here and the blind do not see it.

You've failed to produce any source for your first set of allegations so true to form you rant and rave about another lot to try and cover this up.

TJ you sh*t stirrer.

Mefty – what do you want more sources for? What don't you believe? Everthing I have alleged is in the public arena and proven

I guess what this thread proves is that those of a left of centre bias will not see or understand those of a right of centre bias. And vice versa. Some of it is very amusing "banter" but sometimes it gets a tad heated as all of the keyboard warriors rise up and a bit out of hand and personal. Not ideal.

Personally, I cannot stand G Brown as I believe him to be the worst Chancellor in living memory and not much better as PM and hope very much that he is dumped firmly out of No 10 at the election. But that's my personal opinion and one that will not resonate with everyone. We have freedom of choice and those who disagree and would want to see another 5 years of him will have their opportunity to vote for him. But even 20 years from now I won't be wishing for a funeral pyre and a street party when he dies.

………….what's happened to Ernie – not been insulted by the little scamp for weeks.

Sorry geezer ……………. I've given it up for lent 😐

But you sound disappointed ………..try starting a thread announcing that you are Marxist Christian Homeopathic pill-popping Tesco shopper, who lives in a caravan on disability benefit………… the insults should start flying in,
in no time at all 💡

you are Marxist Christian

Strange but true

Sorry had other things to do, TJ you are yet to provide one source. I repeat

Where Ashcroft said he was domiciled in the UK

Where David Cameron said he was registered to vote (although he is entitled to based on his residency)

mefty – its all there if you want it. Search the archive of any decent paper or just have a google.

Nothing I say or point to will satisfy you but it is clear that he intentionally mislead people and Cameron has as well. Read it in the papers!

There may be a form of weasel words he can use but it is clear he has intentionally mislead both own party, parliament as a whole and the public at large.

If you cannot smell the stench of corruption then you have no political nose.