Mick Lynch for PM

And of course our government(s) and electoral systems are so beneficial to the working class…

It’s possible for two things to be true. One, that there was and is a principled left wing argument for brexit. Two, that the aims of that argument will never ever be achieved.

He and the other union leaders seem to be the only opposition at the moment.

Can’t see why there’s so much enthusiasm about him on here personally.

Re. his Brexit views; nobody is perfect, but at least he articulates an opinion that is based in his and his members honest experience, that isn’t obviously rooted in underlying fear of brown people. So he’s worth listening to, even if only to understand where we are now.

Other than that, his sublime ring running around reporters, interviewers and MPs time after time are just golden to watch. I don’t think he’s destined for politics, he’s too straight forward. But he’s a likeable, obviously dedicated individual who knows his stuff and isn’t afraid to speak his mind. More power to his elbow.

Max has a good take on mick and his deluded Brexit stance,

that isn’t obviously rooted in underlying fear of brown people.

What is the connection between brown people and the EU?

What is the connection between brown people and the EU?

You tell us.

What is the connection between brown people and the EU?

You’d have to ask that one to a ‘brexiteer’ 😉

You tell us

How can I? I didn’t know that there is a connection between brown people and the EU.

I know that there’s a lot more brown people in the UK than there is on average in the EU.

And that the EU is run mostly by white people for populations which are mostly white. Is there an EU commissioner, or for that matter any senior EU politician, who is brown?

Also that the EU tries, with some success, to keep a lot of brown people out.

Other than that I can’t see the connection and I suspect neither can Mick Lynch. I also suspect that like me Mick Lynch doesn’t give a monkeys what Nigel Farage has to say about anything, since the apparent reference to the bloke.

for that matter any senior EU politician, who is brown?

Yes, The current Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar.

The Taoiseach isn’t an EU politician – if Ireland left the EU tomorrow Leo Varadkar would still be Taoiseach.

I wasn’t asking if there are any senior politicians in the EU who happen to be brown, there obviously are.

Edit: My point was, quote : “the EU is run mostly by white people”.

Yes, and mostly populated by white people… but many people voted Leave because of the lies peddled by Farage about keeping out people who aren’t… of course others fell for the lies told by the other Leave campaign about saving the NHS… and a much smaller number went along with the “the only way to nationalise” line of people like Lynch… and here we are…

If anyone could come up with a good reason for leaving it would make my day.

There are good reasons (think about what the EU did to Greece) but pragmatically it was only ever going to go one way.

How can I? I didn’t know that there is a connection between brown people and the EU.

I suppose it depends on whether you’re looking for an actual connection or what a number of people think is a connection. I just gave you an answer to the latter. If I’m wrong and Garage’s poster is baseless then… well, it’s almost like the British public were sold brexit on a lie, isn’t it.

Edit: My point was, quote : “the EU is run mostly by white people”.

The EU is run mostly by Europeans.

Odd, that.

I didn’t know that there is a connection between brown people and the EU.

As you can see from this very informative graphic, if we had not voted for Brexit we would now be inundated with brown people from Turkey, Iraq and Syria.

Your pre-edited comment cougar:

WTF is your point here Ernie? That white-dominated countries are represented by a white-dominated parliament?

Obviously you decided to edit because even you could see that you had hit the nail on the head:

I asked what the connection was between the EU and brown people, after someone appeared to suggest that there was one.

You then told me “you tell us”, which was a bit weird bearing in mind that it was me asking the question.

I said that I didn’t know of any apart from the fact that there aren’t many brown people in Europe.

Now your latest post appears to agree with me – there isn’t a connection.

The EU is run mostly by Europeans.

Odd, that.

It would be odd if it were true.

Who else apart from Europeans are running the EU?

The EU isn’t mostly run by Europeans, it is only run by Europeans. Unless you are some sort of New World Order conspiracy theorist.

Your pre-edited comment cougar:

I edited it to be less confrontational.

I asked what the connection was between the EU and brown people, after someone appeared to suggest that there was one.
…
Now your latest post appears to agree with me – there isn’t a connection.

No, I don’t disagree. There isn’t a connection. I’ve made this point several times over now.

But there is a persistent belief amongst brexity types that there is.

The EU isn’t mostly run by Europeans, it is only run by Europeans. Unless you are some sort of New World Order conspiracy theorist.

I only said “mostly” to hedge my bets because I figured if I said “only” you’d have pulled out some random non-European diplomat I’ve never heard of from 30 years ago in order to prove me wrong.

I don’t understand what battle you’re trying to win here. It’s your bedfellows that don’t approve of swarthy foreigners, not mine. See above.

BREAKING POINT
THE EU HAS FAILED US ALL
WE MUST BREAK FREE OF THE EU AND TAKE BACK CONTROL
[A gurning Farage imposed over a photo of refugees walking miles to get to Slovenia, bollocks all to do with the UK]

That’s your “brown” link, right there. UKIP et al deliberately stoking up racial hatred. And you’re dancing on semantics in order to defend it.

Gents
Do not feed the trolls. We can all see you mean well, but Ernie entered this conversation earlier with a crappy motte and bailey fallacy and has been shooting out other fallacy bait and intellectual dishonesty ever since.
He does not represent the majority opnion on here, or in the country, I think he does not even represent his own opinon. So why are you all wasting your time filling up a decent discussion by arguing with attention seeking trolls? You have to learn not scratch that little mossie bite.
There are lots of people with thought proving intelligent arguments in the discussion above here that can sway us or at least make us think. Talk to them…
The OP was Mick Lynch for PM.
Yay or nay?

I am liking v8ninetys summary:

Re. his Brexit views; nobody is perfect, but at least he articulates an opinion that is based in his and his members honest experience, that isn’t obviously rooted in underlying fear of brown people. So he’s worth listening to, even if only to understand where we are now.

Other than that, his sublime ring running around reporters, interviewers and MPs time after time are just golden to watch. I don’t think he’s destined for politics, he’s too straight forward. But he’s a likeable, obviously dedicated individual who knows his stuff and isn’t afraid to speak his mind. More power to his elbow.

and agree, that its not enough for Lynch to be Pm..

@ransos

There are good reasons

Come off it, you can do better than than a sketchy rant about the Greeks. Give us some reasons.

I think the British public have become so used to seeing either:
a) beige, interchangeable Tory politicians with too little to say (in fact, their sole objective is to say nothing of value), and too much media training, or
b) Tory Politicians who seem so ill prepared to say anything to the press, that they stumble through an interview repeatedly contradicting themselves and tying themselves in knots/lying, that they lose any credibility that they had in the first place.

I think Mick and some of the union spokespeople just appeal to the public because they are neither of those things ^

I’m singling out tory politicians above, because I actually think the Labor front bench has got some decent people in it who can speak with the same passion and coherence as Mick – I don’t think it’s fair to lump them in with Tories.

As for Brexit, I’m disappointed but not surprised that he supported Brexit on a single, ideologically-based issue, rather than taking a more considered view of the potential harm to his members.

Brexit means something different to almost everybody who voted for it. It’s success/failure is entirely dependent on whether those implementing it are aligned with what it means to you. I think anyone voting for Brexit thinking that it was going to be anything other than what it’s turning out to be is (hopelessly?) naïve – as people/activists on the far left tend to be.

I support re-nationalization (in some form) of key industries in the UK, but wouldn’t have voted for Brexit in order to achieve that (nor would I need to have) – it’s just too great a cost.

Can’t see this shambles touting nationalisation as a Brexit bonus. Removing workers rights to withdraw their labour on the other hand…

I think Mick and some of the union spokespeople just appeal to the public because they are neither of those things ^

I think maybe he appeals because he doesn’t put up with those things.

It just goes to prove that people who voted for brexit didn’t really think it through.

Come off it, you can do better than than a sketchy rant about the Greeks. Give us some reasons.

It wasn’t a rant and I voted remain. I gave you a reason but clearly you’re not interested so I’ll leave it there.

It just goes to prove that people who voted for brexit didn’t really think it through.

*Some* didn’t.

I do feel that perhaps the same is going on with the rail strikes.

The government without a doubt is clueless over the future of the railways. Most of the private companies just seem to be stumbling along trying to turn a profit. The current arrangement of companies and contracts of staff is causing part of the chaos.

That said, I feel that a lot of the ‘wants’ of the union are either unrealistic or not pragmatic. In feel that thier ideology is contributing to the chaos.

The government don’t want a debate about the future if railways – so they keep turning this back to (only) a pay issue.

So I have every sympathy with the rail workers looking for more money. I’m running out of any sympathy when ‘workers rights erosion’ includes rights that no-one else has, or pay requests that are unreasonable, when thier union’s have contributed to the chaos.

Sadly, I think we’re about to see the collapse/near collapse of the railways.

My own organisation this week has put effort into investigating long distance buses and bookings, into a new hire car contract and we even discussed it from a Health and Safety point of view, having had staff unable to complete rail journeys and left abandoned and struggling to get home at the end of a working day. I’m due in London at end of February – I paid £210 for tickets yesterday, and yet I’ve also ensured my own big car is available as I am betting I’m going to end up driving it.

You can’t trust the trains, and the union is contributing to that lack of trust.

That said, I feel that a lot of the ‘wants’ of the union are either unrealistic or not pragmatic. In feel that thier ideology is contributing to the chaos.

Its about negotiation isn’t it, they have to have an aim, I expect they will be lucky to get a tiny amount of what they want. If govts will be successivley dishonest and negotiate hard you can’t say  “give us reasonable pay and conditions and we will be happy” because they will gut that in negotiations.

He has some good points but is still an intransigent Brexit moron which rules him out as a reasonable person. It’s not just getting it wrong in the first place, but the inability to learn from reality. Moron.

He has some good points but is still an intransigent Brexit moron which rules him out as a reasonable person. It’s not just getting it wrong in the first place, but the inability to learn from reality. Moron.

I fundamentally disagree with his stance on Brexit, but think he’s doing a great job for his members, and in exposing the incompetence of the government and the media.

To dismiss people as “morons” because we disagree with one aspect of their beliefs is unwise and self-centred, and will not help any of the issues facing the country be resolved.

Having converted two whole brexiteers I refuse to write anyone off. He is parroting a line. he said he would see the result of any new ballot, so that at least shows a willingness to change. Everyone makes mistakes, if he changes with better evidence then thats fine.
However, he isn’t PM material..

“great job for his members”

Yeah it’s all worked out so well for them. They must be delighted.

Yeah it’s all worked out so well for them. They must be delighted

So what’s the alternative? Join the race to the bottom?

So I have every sympathy with the rail workers looking for more money. I’m running out of any sympathy when ‘workers rights erosion’ includes rights that no-one else has, or pay requests that are unreasonable, when thier union’s have contributed to the chaos.

Just because others have had their rights taken away doesn’t mean everyone has to

Having read a few articles I now see I disagree with him on

Brexit: he’s supported it on misleading grounds and I disagree with it.
Electric cars: I own one that costs half what he claims and it provides cheaper transport that the equivalent ICE for places not reached by public transport.
Working from home: it eliminates commuting and some people prefer being “a battery chicken in their own home”.

And I agree with him on:
NHS, academy schools and the welfare state in general
An extensive subsidised affordable rail network

His image: Arthur Scargill, Red Robbo… union leader on an ego trip and forgetting to act in the best interests of his members because his life has become divorced from the workplace, his lifestyle divorced from that of the working man and he’s too rich to feel the pain of going on strike or losing his job.

PM? No ta. Good orator, lousy negotiator.

So what’s the alternative? Join the race to the bottom?

It is not the bottom – some of the requests and protections are things that no-one else in any other industry enjoys. It is a modernising of the service.

Just because others have had their rights taken away doesn’t mean everyone has to

Exactly, also arguing amongst ourselves is what they want us to do.
Surely the railworkers getting increased rights just sets the precedent for the rest of us. Let them have it, then we all might get it.
Or are you just working on the politics of envy?

– some of the requests and protections are things that no-one else in any other industry enjoys.

So those other industries are the bottom then?

Why should workers just give up protections and perks, it is a constant to remove these from workers and the only people who benefit are the boards and shareholders

It is a modernising of the service.

It is about the jobs of his union’s members and others they work with. Those working in ticket offices, as cleaners, as guards… the government (it is not the train companies, they have no say in this, they are being paid and instructed directly by the government now) wants to get rid of their jobs. To sack them. The terms being offered mean the end of their roles.

1 good thing from Brexit: Agricultural policy can be better than the shitshow that was the Cap. Seems to be in Wales? IANAF.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55320005.amp