Packed show watching the RMT's Mick Lynch at @mattforde's live podcast show this evening. Lynch was very funny – and there were some genuine insights into his experience as a union leader

— Josiah Mortimer (@josiahmortimer) October 3, 2022

Lynch: “I’m elected – and yet it’s Viscount Rothermere’s paper that calls me a ‘baron'”

Any relation?

hahah!

On LBC this morning… putting his members’ case/position as well as ever.

Yep he still knows what he is one about and has more experience and knowledge of his industry than anyone trying to ask him ‘difficult’ questions.

The Govt try to portray the RMT as overpaid drivers, but as I understand it, most drivers are ASLEF, whereas RMT look after a lot of the lower paid staff.

Indeed. And, as Lynch addressed on LBC just now, the whole “other unions have accepted the deal” government line refers to small numbers of back office staff that don’t work on the lines and aren’t hit by the elements of the deal pushing for more unstaffed stations and single person operated services.

As others mentioned he is a great bloke, but a frothing brexiteer, for that reason I am out.

As long as he is representing his members best interests I don’t care. Its Unionistas like Red Len who uses disputes for personal agendas that I can’t stand.

As others mentioned he is a great bloke, but a frothing brexiteer, for that reason I am out.

He gets questioned on his support for Brexit below, I fully agree with the strikes, but he’s **** deluded on Brexit

'So you did realise you were jeopardising potentially holiday pay, data protection rights, collective consultation, protection for pregnant, part-time and fixed-term workers? I could go on. I did a minute ago. You can play the tape.'@mrjamesob challenges Mick Lynch on Brexit. pic.twitter.com/SprxMip7V6

— LBC (@LBC) January 4, 2023

To be fair, he does say he would have to see a new ballot on brexshit. I’m happy that he will change his mind, at least he is not a fixed opnioner. Still a bit of a frother though. Hmmm. I’m still a no.

but a frothing brexiteer

Leave was official RMT policy. I heard Eddie Dempsey, who is assistant general secretary of RMT, and imo an even more articulate speaker than Mick Lynch, speak at a trades union council organised EU debate, I don’t recall much frothing when he made the case for leaving, just a class conscious critique of the EU and who it exists to serve.

just a class conscious critique of the EU and who it exists to serve.

Ha ha I am not falling for this or debating with any other frothers.

Well I have to tolerate the endless frothing on countless threads from ranting and inconsolable remainers. So I guess we all have our crosses to bear.

I have zero sympathy.

just a class conscious critique of the EU and who it exists to serve

And of course our government(s) and electoral systems are so beneficial to the working class…

You do get the feeling that they are willing to die on the hill of having a nationalised industry as a matter of principle, rather than what that actually looks like in practice.

It’s almost like they have never heard of or are desperately trying to ignore government owned private companies. Sure, feel free to bid against the SNCF to run their services. I’m sure the French government will take your bid very very seriously.

Technically it’s private. In practice it’s nationalised. And no matter which right wing nutter government gets elected in the next French election, French people still aren’t going to lose their EU guaranteed rights.

Politicians who are more interested in principles than the real world can get in the sea, as far as I’m concerned.

Politicians who are more interested in principles than the real world can get in the sea, as far as I’m concerned.

This, so much this, I may kiss you.

I have a question.

What do train drivers actually do?

In a world where we’re increasingly frotting on about driverless cars, we seemingly can’t work out driverless trains* and they’re on rails. What controls are in a train beyond Stop and Go?

Sincere question and I mean no disrespect to any train drivers reading, I genuinely don’t understand what it entails and I’m curious.

(* – aside from the DLR)

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-do-train-drivers-do.86947/

I didn’t read it all but apparently they don’t even have steering wheels

I may kiss you

I’ve got Covid so there’s not a queue at the moment.

I’ve got Covid so there’s not a queue at the moment.

You flirt.

Politicians who are more interested in principles than the real world can get in the sea, as far as I’m concerned.

100% this, evidence based politics please!

Mick Lynch may be a great union leader but on Brexit he’s just being a useful idiot for the Brexiteers and their ‘Singapore on Thames’ project.

I have a degree of sympathy for those who voted leave in good faith but anyone sufficiently politically aware to be using expressions like ‘class conscious’ who still thinks Brexit will deliver any kind of tangible benefit for UK workers is a mug.

Has anyone here tried going through the selection process to be a train driver? It’s the most thorough one I’ve ever tried.

They’re looking for very particular people with a very specific skillset.

What precisely did Mick lynch find so objectionable about being able to take sausages on holiday?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-do-train-drivers-do.86947/

I didn’t read it all but apparently they don’t even have steering wheels

Interesting read that, thanks. (I probably should have just googled it…)

It is to do with the idea that you cannot nationalise trains within the EU system.
He tne goes on to admit in fact each country can change the eu laws at their whim, plus he can’t expalin france, spain, germany, holland, who all have a near as dammit nationalised system.
The more I read about him, the RMT  and their brext stance, the more I am against the OP’s idea of ML for PM. He is a great union guy, but he isn’t any more than that. lets not undermine the brilliant work he is doing.
I want Bruce Wee for PM.

They’re looking for very particular people with a very specific skillset.

I know a driver who qualified two years ago, it sounded like a lot more professional training than I’ve had in my entire working life… before they got to even start driving. I suspect there’s good reason for that.

There is an attitude in the UK that everyone else has a easy job, most common with people who would never even entertain doing that job for a day, never mind setting out to prove their suitability for the role, commit to the training, and then hold down the job long term.

I suspect there’s good reason for that.

And at least part of that good reason will be the fact train drivers are strongly unionised and the threat of strike action has headed off any attempt by owners or management to water down driver training and cut corners in order to undermine their pay and conditions in the interest of profits.

Do you want corners cutting in a safety critical role?

He’s a good union leader, but PM is stretching it a bit.

And at least part of that good reason will be the fact train drivers are strongly unionised and the threat of strike action has headed off any attempt by owners or management to water down driver training and cut corners in order to undermine their pay and conditions in the interest of profits.

That and the consequence them screwing up would be headline national news, I suppose.

Years ago I took over from a sysadmin who was leaving the company. One of his tasks was a monthly backup which required a load of moving this, copying that, deleting the other. It was fraught with potential for risk and took him half a day. I said to him, this is madness, why don’t you script it? His reply was “oh, it’s far too important to trust to a script.”

I’m reminded of this after reading the forum discussion Ernie linked to. The narrative is that there is a huge scope for human error. Which makes total sense, there’s a lot of variables and the consequence of error could be hundreds of deaths. A signalman got the junction wrong; it’s raining that day; the train is unusually packed; etc. So why not seek to minimise the dependence on humans? Not necessarily to get rid of train drivers but to at least make the job less perilous.

I’m reminded of this after reading the forum discussion Ernie linked to. The narrative is that there is a huge scope for human error. Which makes total sense, there’s a lot of variables and the consequence of error could be hundreds of deaths. A signalman got the junction wrong; it’s raining that day; the train is unusually packed; etc. So why not seek to minimise the dependence on humans? Not necessarily to get rid of train drivers but to at least make the job less perilous.

In that forum some posters alluded to France and Germany being far more automated. It doesn’t sound like it takes less time to train a driver in these countries but it does sound like a train driver is a train driver and they could probably all swap between routes or even parts of the country without too much bother.

In the UK it sounds like local knowledge is far more important and not knowing the peculiarities of your route is borderline dangerous.

In answer to Kerley wondering about his Brexit stance, he’s just been interviewed by James Obrian, I’m sure you’ll all find it if you google. Can’t see why there’s so much enthusiasm about him on here personally.

In that forum some posters alluded to France and Germany being far more automated. It doesn’t sound like it takes less time to train a driver in these countries but it does sound like a train driver is a train driver and they could probably all swap between routes or even parts of the country without too much bother.

In the UK it sounds like local knowledge is far more important and not knowing the peculiarities of your route is borderline dangerous.

Yup. And there seems to be a lack of consistency in standards, which is frankly terrifying.

It’s ancient infrastructure and rolling stock that’s the problem here, isn’t it. They could automate the DLR because it’s a relatively simple route and they got to start again from scratch.

Yup. And there seems to be a lack of consistency in standards, which is frankly terrifying.

This would probably explain why UK train drivers get paid so much more than their European counterparts (as well as when compared to other jobs within the UK rail network).

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/12/23/train-strikes-these-are-the-countries-that-pay-train-drivers-the-most-and-the-least-in-eur

I would imagine the levels of training to drive a train on the continent is similar to that of the UK. However, the level of specialisation required for the UK is far higher.

A high degree of specialisation is a double edged sword. On the one hand, it means more money because you are so difficult to replace. On the other hand, if you are considered surplus to requirements you can’t take your specialist knowledge with you and you and you run the risk of being completely out of work.

It’s interesting because train drivers and therefore the unions have little incentive to standardise the system because it would almost inevitably lead to a reduction in wages. At the same time, a non-state owned private company has few incentives to upgrade infrastructure or standardise systems. The increased wages must be a pretty small price to pay compared to upgrading infrastructure.

Elected governments have little interest in spending money on infrastructure because any benefit is almost certainly going to be enjoyed by future governments.

It’s almost like the only way to get a country to take infrastructure seriously is to put an entity in place that is only interested in the railways but whose majority shareholder is the people it serves.

Great as a union leader and all round spokesperson for the left but not PM material.

His Brexit position is similar to that of Jeremy Corbyn’s, only Mick Lynch is honest about it. Corbyns tepid support for Remain did more to help Brexit happen than had he come out for Leave.

Sorry to bring the old fart into the thread but it’s true isn’t it, the hard left are as Brexit mad as the hard right and that’s probably why the left are finding it harder to find a voice within the Labour Party.

Great as a union leader and all round spokesperson for the left but not PM material.

Definitely this. His message seems to resonate with a lot of ordinary folk, and you’d think would set the tone for Labour to put some clear water between themselves and the Tories.

In a world where we’re increasingly frotting on about driverless cars, we seemingly can’t work out driverless trains* and they’re on rails.

This has also been trotted out for London Underground drivers too. The big stumbling block is that tunnels have to be wide enough to get the passengers out safely. Our Victorian tunnels and such like preclude driverless anything on old infrastructure without spending a metric ****-tonne of money on enlarging things. It’s cheaper to pay top dollar to the well-trained drivers.