It’s often just because mothers get longer/better paid maternity leave.

It goes way beyond that; it pervades all kinds of societeal attitudes and norms not to mention the legal system which has been utterly flacid in addressing the huge number of wrongs that women (as mothers) have done to the fathers of their children regarding access.

If only men and women were equal in society and we didn’t have to pass laws to try and make it happen.

Like I said before, the wrongs are on both sides and if you think women dont have power in society, then you’ve clearly not got children.

Third wave feminism promotes ownership of reproductive rights, better employment rights, and opposition to physical/ sexual abuse.

All positive and laudible things.

It also promotes the idea of over throwing the capitalist patriarchy and gave us the concept of ‘white male privilege’, which is as offensive a concept as saying all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks are drug dealers.

Like I said before, the wrongs are on both sides and if you think women dont have power in society, then you’ve clearly not got children.

If you think that then I expect you have not had a serious conversation with a woman. You need to get out of your bubble and see the real world.

You’re going to be needing this before long. The one you’re using must be worn out by now…

I thought he was using one of those machines they built the Channel Tunnel with

If only men and women were equal in society and we didn’t have to pass laws to try and make it happen.

I’m not sure what you are getting at here, I disagree with little in that article other than that line – and perhaps the one where we are also then asked to protect women in all situations (isnt this a bit patriarchal and infantalizing??? ). The whole tone of the article was pleasantly patronising as well, like I said, I don’t feel it will do anything to actually bring more men on board.

It also promotes the idea of over throwing the capitalist patriarchy and gave us the concept of ‘white male privilege’, which is as offensive a concept as saying all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks are drug dealers.

It says that power in society is held mostly by white men. Which is so obviously true that anyone objecting to it must have a very large chip on their shoulder.

It also promotes the idea of over throwing the capitalist patriarchy and gave us the concept of ‘white male privilege’, which is as offensive a concept as saying all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks are drug dealers.

You really aren’t getting this are you? Please. Get help. You really do need it.

Which article Tom?

Guardian article… first page.

Right, nice and caught up then….
as I said before it’s a good step for those who have no idea how to behave in a modern world
phwor, crikey look at the baps on that etc.

It also promotes the idea of over throwing the capitalist patriarchy and gave us the concept of ‘white male privilege’, which is as offensive a concept as saying all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks are drug dealers.

It just isn’t though is it?

I don’t think you can convince those men anyway Mike, they already understand the morality of their actions and choose to carry on.

Instead what the Guardian appears to be doing, is winding up their own male readership.

Great idea.

Instead what the Guardian appears to be doing, is winding up their own male readership.

As a male, Guardian reader, I can assure you that the article didn’t wind me up at all.

geetee1972 – Member
If i were to step into a room with a bunch of third wave feminists and expect anything other than a hostile response I’d be crazy.

And yet when you get that same response from a forum of wood-burning-coffee-drinking-Skoda-driving men then they are still the ones in the wrong?

Ah yes the give up approach, find the video I posted about racism and see what you think of that approach.

FWIW I will spend November beardless campaigning for Men’s Health issues, none are forgotten

.
As a male, Guardian reader, I can assure you that the article didn’t wind me up at all.

Maybe that is the case then, the comments section seems more frothing than usual though.

+1 ransos

As we appear to have gone full circle back to page 1, it might be worth revisiting what women feel about the situation: https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3059623-to-ask-for-a-diary-of-sexual-harassment?pg=1&order=

It just isn’t though is it?

Of course it is and lots of people agree that idea.

You really aren’t getting this are you? Please. Get help. You really do need it.

But with what exactly? Help me understand specifically what it is I am saying that is so morally transgressive you think I need psychiatric help?

I asked this two pages back and all I could see that was causing a problem was the suggestion that the proble wasn’t asymmetric, which I explained having acknowledged the error of trying to use the term metaphotically and the idea that women score higher on neuroticism (which might lead some of them to experience the otherwise innocent approach to them as harassment) and men score lower on agreeableness (which might make them more likely to be confrontational, rude or even aggressive).

Why does that lead you to think I need help?

And yet when you get that same response from a forum of wood-burning-coffee-drinking-Skoda-driving men then they are still the ones in the wrong?

Oh the irony! I drive a Skoda, have a wood burning stove and I love coffee! 😀 Seriously that did make me smile. Perhaps we’re not so different afterall.

Maybe, the comments section seems more frothing than usual though.

In doesn’t take very much for BTL to work itself into a froth of self-righteous indignation. Mostly by people who spend their days looking for stuff to be annoyed about.

Quick check
G20 leaders

UK cabinet
Equality rules

Well Zokes, perhaps the Guardian should post those horrific stories.

Do any of you think that the political polarisation in the US has worsened things and that we need to find a way to bring the extremes on both ends of the political/gender divide back into the fold and create more dialogue?

Equality rules

25% of them are women including the PM. Does it have to be 50/50 and if so why?

Do any of you think that the political polarisation in the US has worsened things and that we need to find a way to bring the extremes on both ends of the political/gender divide back into the fold and create more dialogue?

Advocating the violent overthrow of the patriarchy would be extreme. Wanting men to stop harassing women? Not so much.

Do any of you think that the political polarisation in the US has worsened things and that we need to find a way to bring the extremes on both ends of the political/gender divide back into the fold and create more dialogue?

How have both sides gone extreme there? One holds all the power and the other doesn’t.

But with what exactly? Help me understand specifically what it is I am saying that is so morally transgressive you think I need psychiatric help?

The way you dismiss facts, try and move a discussion to what you want to talk about and dismiss facts, plus the massive whataboutery of your latest post.

As I said before, I’ve checked out my ideas with a lot of other people I know personally and I get a very different response.

That might just be because you personally selected the members of that group. There’s another group made up of people who just happened upon your obsessive sense of grievance while browsing the OT forum.

Do any of you think that the political polarisation in the US has worsened things and that we need to find a way to bring the extremes on both ends of the political/gender divide back into the fold and create more dialogue?

We should look at what happens in those countries that are the most progressive in their approach to gender equality. Maybe that would help solve the argument.

Well Zokes, perhaps the Guardian should post those horrific stories.

Perhaps it should. I assume you can use email. Perhaps you could furnish the editor with the link.

25% of them are women including the PM. Does it have to be 50/50 and if so why?

close to 50/50 would show that equal opportunities were a real thing, you have a point when it’s 75/25 to women based on history. Until then keep digging

Advocating the violent overthrow of the patriarchy would be extreme. Wanting men to stop harassing women? Not so much.

It’s not that, it’s the derisory and combatitive language and techniques used by both sides to make their points.

You are’t going to convince alt righters to stop harrassing women with articles like that, they are probably going to **** themselves to death in their basements out of amusement and link and laugh about the article on various MGTOW boards.

That might just be because you personally selected the members of that group.

Well of course I have, they’re people I know! But being in a minority doesn’t make you wrong just like being in the majority doesn’t make you right.

Advocating the violent overthrow of the patriarchy would be extreme. Wanting men to stop harassing women? Not so much.

100% agree.

The way you dismiss facts

OK what facts have I dismissed again?

We should look at what happens in those countries that are the most progressive in their approach to gender equality. Maybe that would help solve the argument.

Canada seems like a good starting point.

Well done GeeTee, you have made discussion about equality and harassment about you. It’s quite an achievement, I’m off to sleep, perhaps you should log out, find a good female friend who isn’t afraid to speak the truth and ask about what she feels.

close to 50/50 would show that equal opportunities were a real thing, you have a point when it’s 75/25 to women based on history.

No that would show that equality of OUTCOME was a real thing. The fact that the split is not 50/50 now does not prove it’s because women are in some way prevented from accessing these roles.

It might be but it would be very hard to prove that given that if you could, then someone would have broken the law.

It might be that women make different choices.

Even more likely is that it might be a bit of both. And even more likely still, is that an awful lot of men are also barred from accessing these positions because of who they are also.

Men in true power positions run a very narrow spectrum of background and profile that the vast majority of men don’t conform to either.

But being in a minority doesn’t make you wrong

And in this instance it doesn’t make you right, either

And back to “what is it that makes us think you need psychiatric help?”: take a look back over your contributions, noting not only their content, but also the manner in which they were posted. That’s not normal behaviour.

Well done GeeTee, you have made discussion about equality and harassment about you. It’s quite an achievement, I’m off to sleep,

#metoo

It’s not that, it’s the derisory and combatitive language and techniques used by both sides to make their points.

You are’t going to convince alt righters to stop harrassing women with articles like that, they are probably going to **** themselves to death in their basements out of amusement and link and laugh about the article on various MGTOW boards.

You aren’t going to convince the alt-righters of anything, regardless of how it’s presented. But in terms of language and presentation, it’s interesting that people are exercised by one or two mildly controversial points in an otherwise reasonable article.

Canada seems like a good starting point.

Gender pay gap of 13%.

All the Nordic’s are about the same and Finalnds is 19%.

Gender pay gap of 13%.

Yeah, but that’s because women don’t want jobs that pay more.

I don’t agree at all Ransos, alt righters were convinced to move away from the centre ground… they can be brought back.

I’m also interested in some of Grahams and aracers posts, they kind of touch upon (pun intended) a complaint of a Spanish friend of mine – that English men are cold and frigid, for her – touching friends (not strangers) was normal and psychogically healthy (as we are primates). She was of the opinion that Brits are emotionally unhealthy, one small step below the Japanese in terms of crazy.

That article seems to tie in with that when it questions whether men ahoukd be touching women at all (I assume female friends as well).