…But if a woman feels that something constitutes abuse, maybe she’s just wrong?

Well abuse is a strong word and I’ve never for one moment suggest that ‘abuse’ be something that rests just inside the mind of any individual.

Abuse suggests that a physical act took place that almost certainly consitutes assault.

I was talking about harassment where the act of harassment isn’t clear cut as being thus; a misplaced ‘hello’ and ‘hey can I get your number’ a guy forced to stand too close to someone on the tube because it’s packed.

I gave the example above of approaching a woman to ask if I can take a photogrpah of her (there’s always context and an explanation if the person is willing to talk, I don’t just walk up and ask can i take your picture). This has happened to me once or twice; I’ve approached the individual, said excuse me and been met with a very rude and dismissive response.

I’m quite sure that in the mind of that individual they would claim I was harassing them. Do you think that’s what happened?

GT, do you honestly not feel that these two positions directly contradict each other?

So in answer to this no I don’t because I’m separating ‘abuse’ from ‘harassment’ based on them not being the same thing and the potential for ambiguity and misinterpretation.

But you make a valid point I think, which is you do have to be careful of what you say and to whom and going about the world and your engagement in it assuming a perspective of compassion and empathy is definitely something we should all try to do.

Many people have suggested you need some help, I have to agree

I know I read what they said. I re-read what I said. I have also checked out what I said with a number of people and the feedback is that my points are entirely valid.

I have no problem if you have a negsative opinion of me; it’s a shame because I think almost everyone has something really interesting to offer and most people are inherently good people. I guess you and I won’t be sharing a beer any time soon.

But, and I mean this sincerely since I almost certainly have a blind spot somewhere, can we do this.

Tell me what exactly it is I said that caused offence or made you think I need help and I will either acknowledge it as a mistake and offer an apology or else try to re-phrase it in a way that results in us either agreeing or agreeing to disagree.

Tell me what exactly it is I said that caused offence or made you think I need help and I will either acknowledge it as a mistake and offer an apology or else try to re-phrase it in a way that results in us either agreeing or agreeing to disagree.

We can start with

I’ve never met a woman who has never been made to feel scared for their wellbeing in the street due to unwanted advances

geetee1972
That’s just as likely to be the result of neuroticism (which women score higher on) than actual threat though.[/quote]
Next

My point is this.

ITS NOT AN ASYMMETRIC PROBLEM!

Stop making out like it is. Plenty of men, myself included, have been victims of assault and harassment by women, many times.
It is a massively asymmetric problem, it happens to more women than men as part of they way we have a male dominated society.

We could go on but start there

Good lord. Never has so much shit been written by one man in such a short period of time.

doris5000 – Member

And there always were – and still are – people saying, “But not all [ethnic majority] people are racist!!!!!!” because they feel insulted or attacked – but all the non-racists have a part to play in ensuring it is driven out, is no longer socially acceptable, even in minor forms. It’s not just rapists, not just people who harass others that need to help out here.

One key factor is that, by discussing the issue more publicly, we become aware of abusive behaviours around us that we may not have noticed, or are so ingrained into society that everyone just takes it as standard.

So we should be changing our ‘socialized behaviour’. This came up earlier in the thread, but you just can’t keeping saying shit like this

Just because it’s ‘socialized’ doesn’t mean it’s OK. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t count or isn’t hurtful, or doesn’t have measurable effects on people’s mental health.

We changed our behaviours with drink driving, with smoking around kids, with using casual racist slurs. We can do it with sexist slurs too, but people need to stop see it as an accusation and start seeing it as a challenge to make things better.

This is an interesting test and it certainly made me question some of my ingrained thought process on race ect…

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

OK fair enough, thank you (sincerely) for engaging.

So the issue of neuroticism. It’s important to separate out the cause and the effect.

The evidence is that a lot of women feel scared for their wellbeing in the street on a regular basis. I accept that this is a self reported fact.

Now we ask, what causes this?

It could be because they are experiencing genuinely predatory behaviour and they are right to feel scared.

Or it could be that they are prone to feeling highly anxious and tend to worry about things more than external environment would justify.

We have to first accept that these two explanations are at least possible. If you don’t accept that, then we aren’t going to reconcile our respective points of view. But let’s assume that’s not the case.

Think of this situation.

You’re terrified of flying to the point that it’s debilitating. There’s no evidence to suggest that that fear is justified because flying is the safest form of travel right? So your ‘fear’ is rooted in neurosis (someone on here started a thread on exactly this).

That neurosis is just something we experience and it causes us to fear things that other people might not.

In this instance of women fearing for their safety on the street, consider this:

Men are far more likely to be the victims of violence in this situation by a very large factor, I think somethling like three or four times more likely.

Men don’t tend to report this feeling of fear or insecurity despite the evidence to suggest that they should. Why?

Because men are less likely to score high on ‘liquorice allsorts’ (neuroticism but let’s take the politics out of the word) than women. And conversely it makes them more likely to take risks.

Ironcially the reason men are more likely to be the victims of violence (that is more likely to be perpetrated by men) is because they score far lower on agreeableness. They are much more OK with hurting people whereas women aren’t.

Does that make sense? I’m not saying women are ‘neurotic’ far from it (and I made that exact point on thursday) and I’m not saying that all those expressed fears are unfounded. I am saying that ‘SOME’ of that fear will be the product of that predisposition towards anxiety though and if that offends you, I’m sorry, it’s just a fact of life.

OK so regarding the ‘asymmetry’ point, I have fully addressed that above. We will probably have to respectfully disagree on this one.

Good lord. Never has so much shit been written by one man in such a short period of time.

Well if you can’t keep up intellectually Zokes, I suggest you just excuse yourself and **** off.

The evidence is that a lot of women feel scared for their wellbeing in the street on a regular basis. I accept that this is a self reported fact.

Now we ask, what causes this?
Bring evidence if you want to, otherwise you are trying to confuse speculation with fact deliberately.

Men are far more likely to be the victims of violence in this situation by a very large factor, I think somethling like three or four times more likely.

Men don’t tend to report this feeling of fear or insecurity despite the evidence to suggest that they should. Why?
Sexual violence or actual violence – are you trying to confuse the issues being discussed here?

OK so regarding the ‘asymmetry’ point, I have fully addressed that above. We will probably have to respectfully disagree on this one.

Yes you are wrong on that one and have chosen to try and interpret the facts in a false way.

Well if you can’t keep up intellectually Zokes, I suggest you just excuse yourself and **** off.

Distilling salient points from a large amount of irrelevant text is actually quite a rare skill. As you can see from my post about your turgid shite, thankfully it’s one that I possess. I think quite a few others have it too, judging by their collective responses.

If only you spent as much time reading as you clearly do on typing lessons.

you’re just a see you next Tuesday

Nice, thanks.

Just because you believe that you can argue a point well doesn’t make you right. You can hurl all the slightly dodgy facts (that back up your side of the argument) at the screen that you like, you’ll continue to come across as a right sausage because, deep down, your argument is that women are inferior.

At the very best you are a dyed-in-the wool sexist, whether that is due to your upbringing (I believe you told us earlier in the thread that you were abused, my apologies if I remember incorrectly) I expect we’ll never know.

My accusation that you were demented is due to your complete inability to consider or give credence to another’s point of view. Demented could maybe be honed slightly, though you definitely have some issues.

I seriously suggest visiting someone who can help you as I’m sure some of the issues that we see on the forum must spill over into, and have a negative effect on, your personal life.

All the very best, I’ll leave this thread now.

You sausage.

[/quote]

Yes you are wrong on that one and have chosen to try and interpret the facts in a false way.

Well if we are to take the evidence of the #MeToo campaign then of the total set of people that have experienced either harassment or assault, roughly two thirds are women and one third are men.

So no, not symmetric. But then also not remotely the balance of the problem that you have been led to believe.

As you can see from my post about your turgid shite, thankfully it’s one that I possess

Aha, let me guess, you’re a journalist.

That’s because you’re either ignorant or stupid or perhaps both. Either way you’re not interested to engage in an actual exploration of the situation or the problem because it doesn’t confirm to your view of the world.

As far as I see it you have several problems in this thread:

1, Your insistence that something is being said when it’s not (i.e. all men are closet rapists and we are all assaulting women)
2, Your attempt to assert a conclusion based around maths which, whilst calculated correctly (if I accept you accept the mistake you made), is clearly NOT true
3, Your unwillingness you listen to any concept other than your own. I’m happy to call bullshit on your maths and I don’t, honestly, care that you think I’m ignorant and stupid but you rarely address any points that don’t fit your world view.

Fundamentally, most of the posters do not agree with you. No amount of weaselling around this fact will change it. NOBODY is saying that there’s an epidemic of men assaulting or harassing women but the experience of women suggests it is a long-term, insidious problem that needs addressing. Either you can accept that and we might be interested in debating the volume of men we need to bury in shallow graves or you can continue trying to minimise the issue. Name-call all you want, it doesn’t stop you being wrong in large parts of what you’re writing.

deep down, your argument is that women are inferior

WOW! where on earth did you get that notion from?

and your comment that women’s neurocy is making more alleged victims?

WOW! where on earth did you get that notion from

Pick any one of the several thousand lines of tripe you’ve just inflicted on us.

Wow geetee.
Just unbelievable.
I’m glad others have the time to pick apart the bollocks, because my open-mouthed incredulity is preventing me

1, Your insistence that something is being said when it’s not (i.e. all men are closet rapists and we are all assaulting women)

OK no one here is saying that I grant you. But that argument is being made elsewhere.

NOBODY is saying that there’s an epidemic of men assaulting or harassing women but the experience of women suggests it is a long-term, insidious problem that needs addressing

OK so then we do broadly speaking agree.

Where it happens it is a problem and needs addressing. I agree 100%.
I agree that there is a lot of normalised behaviour that some men display that falls into this category. I think the percentage of men that do this is probably very large. To illustrate, I would regard a guy calling out ‘show us yer tits love’ as being an example of this and if I heard it, I would challenge it. I think that’s wrong and it shouldn’t be tolerated.

I think these fall into the set of what has been referred to as ‘micro-aggressions’, which is a useful term to use. But I also think that women have their own set of micro-aggressions towards men. They’re often different. Sometimes they are the same but they are often a different set of behaviours.

Where does this leave us then? Do we broadly agree?

WOW! where on earth did you get that notion from?

GT this may come as a surprise but that’s actually how you come across on here.

and your comment that women’s neurocy is making more alleged victims?

Oh for crying out loud why why why? Did you read my explanation of this, the one that relates to the fear of flying example?

Please, if you disagree with that explanation outline where you don’t agree.

Where it happens it is a problem and needs addressing. I agree 100%.
I agree that there is a lot of normalised behaviour that some men display that falls into this category. I think the percentage of men that do this is probably very large.

So a lot of men exhibit sexist behaviours and it’s a problem, we can agree there

I think these fall into the set of what has been referred to as ‘micro-aggressions’, which is a useful term to use.

Yes see above about normalised behaviours

But I also think that women have their own set of micro-aggressions towards men. They’re often different. Sometimes they are the same but they are often a different set of behaviours.

Men are still in charge of 90% of our businesses or organisations, governments and the rest. This is where the power imbalance lies and that is why it’s a problem.

Where does this leave us then? Do we broadly agree?

We don’t.

Oh for crying out loud why why why? Did you read my explanation of this, the one that relates to the fear of flying example?

Yes I think it’s a crock of shit. I’ve heard too many examples to dismiss as neurocy or a fear of. The way society is set up tells us that.

GT this may come as a surprise but that’s actually how you come across on here.

OK well apologies, but you’re wrong, nothing is further from the truth. I think that’s what happens when two people/groups of people approach the same issue with vastly different thought processes. I can’t possibly expect to determine how you chose to interpret me though of course I can influence it and it’s cause and effect to some degree so I accept some responsibility for the outcome but really it’s just not true.

I’m glad others have the time to pick apart the bollocks, because my open-mouthed incredulity is preventing me

Yup, that’s pretty much where I’m at. I thought I’d seen it all with Jamby’s nonsense on the Brexit thread, but geetee has really upped the ante when it comes to delusional obfuscation here.

OK well apologies, but you’re wrong, nothing is further from the truth.

You are not the best arbiter of how you come across to others.

OK well apologies, but you’re wrong, nothing is further from the truth.

To some extent, geetee, you have to acknowledge that though you may like to think it’s not true if a large number of individuals happen to hold that opinion about one single person, there’s a reason. I think a few people have suggested you spend some time thinking about what that reason might be in your particular case, but you seem unwilling.

If in the rest of your world (non-STW) everyone considers that you hold men and women in comparable esteem, and are systematically respectful to both in equal amounts, then you can just chalk it up to STW being a weird place and move on. But I do think you’d get something out of taking a step back and trying to understand why you come across as such a misogynist here, and if you do feel strongly that it’s wildly misrepresentative of you as a real person it will probably give you some ideas of how your behaviour differs here, and maybe give you a chance to change the perception of people here; not by trotting out pseudo-science and opinion as fact, but by behaving differently.

If not just move along – there are too many people who (strongly in many cases) disagree with you on this thread for it to be worthwhile continuing the way you have so far.

Men are still in charge of 90% of our businesses or organisations, governments and the rest

Did you see this?

The Economist on the gender pay gap

It helps partly explain why that is the case. I am not saying that there isn’t truth in what you’re saying, I think there is something in it, but how things are and why they are that way is probably not what you would expect.

The fact that there are more men in very senior positions in comapnies and government (it’s very high, I don’t think it’s 90% anymore but I accept it’s still very high) does not by defgault mean we live in unfair, discriminatory patriarchial society. It ‘might’ but that’s only a hypoethesis. Just as likely is that we live in a world where men and women make very different choices about the lives they lead.

Porbably the reality is a bit of both. There is undoubtedly discrimination and there is undoubtedly a lot difference in choices that men and women make.

The fact that there are more men in very senior positions in comapnies and government (it’s very high, I don’t think it’s 90% anymore but I accept it’s still very high) does not by defgault mean we live in unfair, discriminatory patriarchial society. It ‘might’ but that’s only a hypoethesis. Just as likely is that we live in a world where men and women make very different choices about the lives they lead.

Come back with proof….

To some extent, geetee, you have to acknowledge that though you may like to think it’s not true if a large number of individuals happen to hold that opinion about one single person, there’s a reason

Yes I do, and the comments made here really bothered me, which is why I spent the weekend checking this out with as many people who really know me as possible and they all told me the same thing.

I know what I am and how I am. I know what my neuroses are, my character flaws and failings and I am open enough to be able to tell you what they are.

In the context of this thread, they are a predisposition to be beligerant with my arguments, to be very dogmatic, to find it hard to see the other person’s point of view. I accept that but for as long as those as the only things I’m being accused of, then every response here (that isn’t a personal attack, and there have been a lot of those) has the potential to change my mind.

But the one thing I am not, is a mysogninist.

geetee1972, there is something genuinely disturbing in the lengths which you have gone to on this thread to justify your statements and by implication your own attitudes to women. Normal self-doubt means that most people, when they find they are so out of step with what people around them are saying, will usually stop and think and ask themselves whether they are wrong, and there will be a period of reflection and introspection. They might ask questions to clarify what others are saying, but they are otherwise fairly quiet.

Your response to being told by pretty much every other person on this thread that you are wrong, has been to seek evidence and and construct arguments to justify your views, going to quite obsessive lengths with some of your ‘analysis’, statistical and otherwise.

But, and I mean this sincerely since I almost certainly have a blind spot somewhere, can we do this.

Your desire to keep this thread running and discussing you/your views and beliefs, itself seems to me to be unhealthy. Rather than persisting in posting on this thread, I suggest you read the Mumsnet thread linked to earlier on, and then read it again. There are probably other similar threads on Mumsnet that you can find detailing women’s experience of rape and sexual abuse – read them. While you are reading, try to imagine what it must be like for them. Take some time to think about that. Until you have done so, I would suggest you don’t post any more on this thread.

Put it this way geetee. If I were a woman reading this thread, I’d probably thinking.
“Great, just when we thought we were making progress, along comes someone trying to diminish/dismiss/derail it”.

Every post comes across as
“I accept that there may be a problem, but…”

Do you understand why that might be a problem?

Come back with proof….

OK but you’re not going to agree with the proof so is there any point?

The article by The Economist proves beyond doubt that there is no statisticallty significant difference in what men and women earn when they do the same jobs.

Further the difference in choice women and men make is discussed here:

Men and Things, Women and People

Now what is interesting is why the roles that women tend to choose are paid less than the ones that men tend to choose. THAT’S a question.

It also needs to be cited that the way society regards fathers (with great disparity and discrimination) is a big part of this problem.

Your response to being told by pretty much every other person on this thread

Hardly a representative sample. If i were to step into a room with a bunch of third wave feminists and expect anything other than a hostile response I’d be crazy. As I said before, I’ve checked out my ideas with a lot of other people I know personally and I get a very different response.

I suspect that the people arguing with me on this thread are doing so because they vehemently disagree with me.

Your desire to keep this thread running and discussing you/your views and beliefs, itself seems to me to be unhealthy.

I’ve always believed that debate is very healthy and besides, there are a lot of other people on this thread as well so if you’re right, then we all need help.

OK but you’re not going to agree with the proof so is there any point?

The article by The Economist proves beyond doubt that there is no statisticallty significant difference in what men and women earn when they do the same jobs.
Point missed, people with the same jobs and pay has nothing to do with the disparity of people in those positions.

Now what is interesting is why the roles that women tend to choose are paid less than the ones that men tend to choose. THAT’S a question.

How about the other questions raised?

It also needs to be cited that the way society regards fathers (with great disparity and discrimination) is a big part of this problem.

It does but how does that impact the problems of habitual sexual abuse that id factually going on.

As usual, amongst all the personal abuse – both sides have some valid points although geetee clearly has less of them, but it’s all lost in increasing polarisation and ridiculous shrieking.

As for the Guardian article, I agree with most of it except…

If a woman tells you that you **** up, and you feel like shit, don’t put it on that woman to make you feel better. Apologize without qualification and then go away.

If I as a man, tell another male that he **** up – I do not expect him to make an unreserved apology and go away. I expect him to defend himself if he feels he did not **** up, the “my way of the highway” attitude creates hugely dysfunctional teams. That attitude does nothing to counter the stereotyped view of how females approach arguments (ie you can’t win, so dont listen).

I’d also add that I fear that Guardian may just turn off more males to the issues that women face, than it will convince.

It does but how does that impact the problems of habitual sexual abuse that id factually going on.

Well it doesn’t but I thought we’d moved on from that and were now talking about the work place and the decisions men and women make regarding their career.

people with the same jobs and pay has nothing to do with the disparity of people in those positions.

If you’re doing the same job and you’re being paid the same amount for it, where is the disparity?

never mind.

You’re going to be needing this before long. The one you’re using must be worn out by now…

If I as a man, tell another male that he **** up – I do not expect him to make an unreserved apology and go away. I expect him to defend himself if he feels he did not **** up, the “my way of the highway” attitude creates hugely dysfunctionl teams. I feel that this is why workplace spats amongst males end more quickly than they do betwern female colleagues…. but hey.

If only men and women were equal in society and we didn’t have to pass laws to try and make it happen.

If you’re doing the same job and you’re being paid the same amount for it, where is the disparity?

If you chances of getting that job are lower,

If i were to step into a room with a bunch of third wave feminists and expect anything other than a hostile response I’d be crazy

Third wave feminism promotes ownership of reproductive rights, better employment rights, and opposition to physical/ sexual abuse.