#MeToo

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  • #MeToo
  • bikebouy
    Member

    And there’s been a swing towards more Hate Crime, I’m suggesting these are recent developments since last June.

    zokes
    Member

    And there’s been a swing towards more Hate Crime, I’m suggesting these are recent developments since last June.

    That crime stat is just the UK isn’t it?

    gerti
    Member

    As a bloke, I’m left wondering “what can I do”?

    Easy – don’t be involved in such behaviour. If all blokes cared as much and took the same action, not much else would need done.

    zokes
    Member

    There has been a social media campaign to highlight the prevalence of sexual assault against women doing the rounds in the past few days. Is it just me who’s shocked (but deep down not entirely surprised) but just how prevalent and normalised such behaviour towards women appears to be?

    As a bloke, I’m left wondering “what can I do”? I thought things had come quite a long way in the past 15 years or so, and certainly behaviours I recall being prevalent as a young adult at uni wouldn’t be remotely acceptable now. But then part of me also wonders is that just because my friend bubble has all grown up, and behaviours apparently normalised back then because we were all dumb teenagers / early 20-somethings still are accepted by the same demographic today? Though clearly this is an issue caused by far more than just drunk students…

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-16/what-is-the-metoo-campaign/9055926

    Premier Icon lapierrelady
    Subscriber

    Call it out when you see/hear it
    Listen to your employees/co workers/friends
    It happens to both sexes
    Remember most people are good people

    edlong
    Member

    Call it out when you see/hear it

    This mainly, I reckon. Assuming you’re not doing or likely to do anything out of order yourself (obviously?), don’t be a bystander.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    lapierrelady – Member
    Call it out when you see/hear it
    Listen to your employees/co workers/friends
    It happens to both sexes
    Remember most people are good people

    ^^ This, totally this.

    Also, when some dick who’s never faced the issue calls you a “liberal, lefty handwringer” or “snowflake” for giving a shit and caring about prejudice and harassment, give them a swift knee in the balls.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    May I be the first?

    Sexist!

    lapierrelady – Member
    Call it out when you see/hear it

    And this.
    Nice that things are finally changing.

    bensales
    Member

    Got to say, I agree with all of that list (and the #MeToo thing), apart from this one

    “If you are asked to be on a panel/team and see that it’s all men, say something. Maybe even refuse the spot!”

    I believe in a meritocracy. If the best people for a team are all male, then that’s the best team for that job. Equally, could be all female, or all orangutan. Whatever mix is the best or most appropriate for the job at hand.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    “If you are asked to be on a panel/team and see that it’s all men, say something. Maybe even refuse the spot!”

    I believe in a meritocracy. If the best people for a team are all male, then that’s the best team for that job. Equally, could be all female, or all orangutan. Whatever mix is the best or most appropriate for the job at hand.
    It would be a sign that one of the following may be the case
    Men are preferred
    The pool to choose from is male dominated

    You would need to see the rest of the workplace to know though – some simple advice when I was younger was to avoid places where everyone was old – all the talent left or all new/young – nobody stays.

    But certainly not being afraid to call out sexism and harrasment is important.

    “liberal, lefty handwringer” or “snowflake”

    2 phrases that these days say you have hit a nerve and that people are not happy becasue they see some of their behaviours as perfectly normal when they are not acceptable.

    zokes
    Member

    Got to say, I agree with all of that list (and the #MeToo thing), apart from this one

    “If you are asked to be on a panel/team and see that it’s all men, say something. Maybe even refuse the spot!”

    I believe in a meritocracy. If the best people for a team are all male, then that’s the best team for that job. Equally, could be all female, or all orangutan. Whatever mix is the best or most appropriate for the job at hand.

    This is interesting. I’m currently pulling together committees for an international conference (don’t ask how I ended up chairing it, I’m not quite sure either). Noting that I’m relatively inexperienced to be in the position of chair for such an event, my first draft of invitees for the local organising committee was picked on perceived experience with a nod to geographical location. Result: 9 males, all except me over 50, 1 female in an administrative role. It was only when I put M or F in a column next to those names that it really stood out just how poor the demographic coverage was.

    So, a rethink over the weekend, and we’re now at 7:5 M:F, with what I’d say is clearly a more dynamic group, whilst still having some long-standing experience to draw on.

    There aren’t many fields more male dominated than the world of soil science professors, so if it can be done here (with what looks like a net benefit in terms of breadth of experience), then there probably aren’t many fields in which it can’t be done.

    This does open up another question as to whether the presence / absence of boobs / penis is the correct tool for assessing diversity in a work environment. I don’t think it is, it’s very blunt and misses the diversity of expertise and skills two people of the same gender, sexual orientation or race may have. It does however at least ensure the correct question is being asked.

    I believe in a meritocracy

    Isnt the point that a meritocracy doesnt exist?

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Subscriber

    Call it when you see it.
    It can be hard, but I’m an exponent since you know when and before of calling it out. You won’t be alone but someone has to be brave and do it (for me I confronted a racist in a football crowd many years ago which could have gone wrong but straight away others joined in with ‘yeah, tone it down mate’ etc) If you don’t, then you are to an extent complicit

    There aren’t many fields more male dominated than the world of soil science

    This made me snigger a bit. Truly experts in their field.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    [video]https://youtu.be/g9n_UPyVR5s[/video]
    Posted this elsewhere and it’s a very powerful message about how the little things matter. Can be applied to most things

    Premier Icon manton69
    Subscriber

    Agree with most of the above apart from the meritocracy argument. This is flawed by the fact that I have had this conversation with some very able women in male dominated fields. You don’t just have to be as good as the men to be equal, you have to be better to get the same opportunities. That is not a meritocracy.

    geetee1972
    Member

    There has been a social media campaign to highlight the prevalence of sexual assault against women doing the rounds in the past few days

    It’s not just sexual assualt, it also includes harassment which can itself include anything from simply ‘chatting a woman up’ all the way through to, you know, actual harassment.

    You don’t just have to be as good as the men to be equal, you have to be better to get the same opportunities.

    This trope is widely quoted but you know there’s never been any research to give it any validity and the reason there isn’t any research is because it’s not something that can acutally be measured.

    edlong
    Member

    It’s not just sexual assualt, it also includes harassment which can itself include anything from simply ‘chatting a woman up’ all the way through to, you know, actual harassment.

    On that “chatting up” thing, one aspect that worries me is that some people still aren’t getting that, depending on circumstance, “chatting up” can very much be harassment / abuse.

    So, boy meets girl in bar, likes the look of girl, asks girl if she would like a drink – so far, no problem.

    BUT

    Powerful boy meets powerless girl in an interview / presentation / audition situation where boy has power to decide on something that might make massive, life-changing impact on girl’s entire future, then asks girl if she’d like to go for a drink, pop up to his hotel room to discuss the project further etc. – not really appropriate imho.

    But I still think a lot of people aren’t getting that.

    It was only when I put M or F in a column next to those names that it really stood out just how poor the demographic coverage was.

    Not having a pop, but diversity is a bit more than gender. I’m wondering if there were any further columns for characteristics such as ethnicity or sexual orientation, and how diverse the pool of soil scientists is in those areas?

    Torminalis
    Member

    Call it out when you see/hear it

    This. Make sexual aggression of all forms shameful. Be brave in confronting it.

    zokes
    Member

    Not having a pop, but diversity is a bit more than gender. I’m wondering if there were any further columns for characteristics such as ethnicity or sexual orientation, and how diverse the pool of soil scientists is in those areas?

    Not reading the last paragraph of my post either, where I already directly addressed that point:

    This does open up another question as to whether the presence / absence of boobs / penis is the correct tool for assessing diversity in a work environment. I don’t think it is, it’s very blunt and misses the diversity of expertise and skills two people of the same gender, sexual orientation or race may have. It does however at least ensure the correct question is being asked.

    jekkyl
    Member

    My friend on fb linked to this mumsnet thread. An eye opener

    https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3059623-to-ask-for-a-diary-of-sexual-harassment?pg=1&order=

    I feel genuinely ashamed to be a man.

    edlong
    Member

    @zokes

    So… were there columns for other characteristics, and did you manage to get a disabled, pregnant, black lesbian for your panel? 😉

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    I’m amazed that this has come as news to anyone. Have people been walking around with their eyes (wilfully or otherwise) shut?

    Just have a conversation with anyone female. My wife’s matter-of-factly told me of numerous occasions when she was working in a more corporate environment where she’d be fending off unwanted sexual advances. It seems that it just goes with the territory. That seems to be the attitude of some men, anyway. You just learn to deal with it.

    And when you even think about it, surely everyone must be able to think at least one bloke they’ve worked with (or probably for) who was such an obvious sleazebag that it made your skin crawl just being in their presence. I know I can.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    And when you even think about it, surely everyone must be able to think at least one bloke they’ve worked with (or probably for) who was such an obvious sleazebag that it made your skin crawl just being in their presence. I know I can.

    oh god yes

    quite pleased to say I helped get him sacked- my ex boss- not for being a sleazeball but for scientfic misconduct, always knew he was a dick, but after he was booted out a few colleagues came forward to say hed propositioned them on the basis that hed get them a project in his lab.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    Too right binners. As I said on a previous thread – the phrase “Casting couch” didn’t exist for nothing.
    Again, said before, but it’s a pity it took one brave woman to come out against Weinstein for all the others to speak up. But it’s fantastic that this is changing.

    zokes
    Member

    So… were there columns for other characteristics, and did you manage to get a disabled, pregnant, black lesbian for your panel?

    No, there weren’t. I’d be happy to take suggestions for names that fit that category (especially homosexual ATSI males who will be pregnant in September 2019) who are nationally recognised in Australia for their research into soil organic matter. Well done for turning an overwhelmingly positive outcome into a negative. 🙄

    submarined
    Member

    My friend on fb linked to this mumsnet thread. An eye opener

    https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3059623-to-ask-for-a-diary-of-sexual-harassment?pg=1&order=

    I feel genuinely ashamed to be a man.
    That is genuinely horrific.
    Makes me feel sick to my stomach. The worst part (not that I’m grading anything, that thread is full of so much that makes me so angry) are the tales that end with ‘nobody believed me’ or ‘I was to shamed to tell anybody’.
    That’s a horrific indictment of society.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    agreed, some horrible horrible stories there

    thecaptain
    Member

    Yes of course sexual harassment is ubiquitous and people who deny it are typically part of the problem.

    As for “meritocracy” and manels, yes it’s theoretically possible that in some cases all the best choices are men but in reality there’s a huge amount of research demonstrating systematic bias against women.

    I was invited onto a manel a couple of years ago, I called the organisers out on it when I found out all the other invited speakers were male (in a field where there are plenty of great female choices, and some of the men they’d chosen were pretty marginal). They came out with feeble excuses about how it was only a preliminary program (which was clearly a lie) but did then manage to balance it a bit better. Most shocking of all, the organising committee had several vocally pro-female women on it!

    My wife works in the same area as me. Her life is basically this cartoon

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber
    Edukator
    Member

    Maybe I’ve been lucky (and Madame too) but we’ve had little experience of this. I’ve dealt with a lot of people in a lot of companies and can’t get beyond the fingers of one had for macho bullies and none for sexual harrassment. One macho bully terrified the women in his office just by being a loud-mouthed, vulgar, insulting, domineering bore but there was nothing sexual about it; he intimidated many men in the place in the same way too but left me alone – I simply started slowly shaking my head when he went off on one with me in the office and strangely that was enough.

    I’ve been aware of sexual relationships going on between colleagues but it was most definitely consensual, and noisy in one case. I can get into double figures for people I’ve known who’ve married/shacked up with a superior or colleague, my sister married her boss.

    So in my littel world the biggest problem is sex harrassment. Nothing sexual about, just plain old sex discrimination. Males getting promotion over better female candidates, a reluctance to appoint women to the most senior posts. And women (and one man) being treated like dirt simply because nobody is prepared to do anything about it.

    Edit: If an advance is made that is restricted to verbal and body language advances with no physical contact, and not repeated whan the answer is “no” then I don’t think you can call it harrassment. I should also add the proviso that the languge is socially acceptable – asking someone out rather than “fancy a ****”. If you start including tentative requests for a date then I’ve been harrassed but it really didn’t feel like harrassment, just an awkward sitiuation to deal with tactfully.

    zokes
    Member

    Edit: If an advance is made that is restricted to verbal and body language advances with no physical contact, and not repeated whan the answer is “no” then I don’t think you can call it harrassment. I should also add the proviso that the languge is socially acceptable – asking someone out rather than “fancy a ****”. If you start including tentative requests for a date then I’ve been harrassed but it really didn’t feel like harrassment, just an awkward sitiuation to deal with tactfully.

    The trouble is that very frequently it’s seen as a patriarchal right to proposition a woman and she must have no hard feelings, no matter how uncomfortable it made her. Now I’m as useless with women as they come, so Christ knows how we’re actually supposed to read the situation to find out whether a request for a date would leave the female feeling awkward.

    I’ve just posed this to MrsZ, and she’s not sure either, but said that it would have to be someone she was already familiar with either by mutual greetings whilst shopping/walking the dog etc, or a colleague who she had already spent time socially with. Anything else starts to bring it back to male right to ask, and female responsibility for hard feelings.

    thecaptain
    Member

    Edukator, that also depends on the existing relationship between the people. Strangers meeting in a bar, fine. Supervisor propositioning their staff, not so much.

    geetee1972
    Member

    The trouble is that very frequently it’s seen as a patriarchal right to proposition a woman

    Less a ‘patriarchal right’ more of a biological/evolutionary bloody necessity.

    Fortunately the unwillingness to do this for fear of offending the woman is very low in men.

    Men as a whole score very low on ‘agreeableness’ compared to women (38th percentile vs 61st percentile against the whole population).

    Agreeableness is defined as the tendency to avoid conflict, confrontation or cause offence. You can see why, evolutionarily speaking, men NEED to score low on this.

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    That Mumsnet thread has me raging. How the hell am I supposed to protect the people I care for from these scum? It’s the casual normality of it which is so disgusting.

    Edukator
    Member

    Supervisor propositioning their staff, not so much.

    So my brother-in-law should never have asked my sister out. He did, she accepted, three kids… five happy people.

    I noticed a Charlie Hebdo cover in town:

    https://charliehebdo.fr/

    “Faut-t-il coucher pour réussir ?” is the question with Weinburg replying “moi j’ai été obliger de réussir pour coucher”.

    Many a true word in jeste, but when you look at the couples formed by men in power it’s clearly true.

    geetee1972
    Member

    So my brother-in-law should never have asked my sister out. He did, she accepted, three kids… five happy people.

    I know two other couples who got together at work; in both instances one was the line manager of the other and in one, the manager was male and the other, female.

    I agree it’s riskier to pursue this as a means of finding a mate, but given that men and women are now more or less equally represnted in the workplace, it’s hard to see where the opportunities for dating are other than at work or through Tinder.

    atlaz
    Member

    I’ve been aware for a VERY long time that girls and women get a very raw deal even in this era. I can honestly say I’ve never met a woman who has never been made to feel scared for their wellbeing in the street due to unwanted advances. The majority of women I know say they’ve been felt up by strangers, even before puberty and when I worked in London, several of my female colleagues said it was barely worth remarking about when some bloke rubbed himself up against them, they’d just move away rather than blow up as otherwise they’d be yelling one or two times a week.

    thecaptain
    Member

    Yes line manager situations are very dodgy and generally frowned upon. Not allowed by my last UK employer. I know people sometimes make it work but the junior is in a very weak position if it goes pear-shaped.

    Dating at work does not have to be with your boss.,,

    geetee1972
    Member

    I’ve never met a woman who has never been made to feel scared for their wellbeing in the street due to unwanted advances

    That’s just as likely to be the result of neuroticism (which women score higher on) than actual threat though.

    thecaptain
    Member

    Jesus geetee you really do enjoy acting like a complete knob at times.

    doris5000
    Member

    That’s just as likely to be the result of neuroticism (which women score higher on) than actual threat though.

    Christ on a **** fixie

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    That’s just as likely to be the result of neuroticism (which women score higher on) than actual threat though.

    But lower in bellendery, if you are anything to go by.

    Call it out when you see/hear it

    Then engage in a 10 page discussion about it, and how no offence was intended and how offence is taken rather than given or how it’s acceptable amongst certain groups and so will continue to be used there, or any other of a list of excuses

    Edukator
    Member

    I know you ask all the people you photograph for permission, GT, but have you considered how the people who refuse feel about the proposition? You have pics of ladies on beaches, down dark alleys, lying on the grass in the park. Personally I wouldn’t walk up to them and ask if they minded me taking their picture, I’d leave them in peace in their own bit of space. You know you’re not a threat, they don’t.

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