I find no guilt associated with being privileged. I am white, intelligent, had good upbringing and have been relatively successful (monetarily). At no point in my life have I ever had to put much effort in to get to where I am.
I am very privileged but rather than feeling guilty I feel empathy to those that do not have the same privileges and accept how lucky I have been.
Those that cannot accept where they are privileged tend to be the types of people who just say the less privileged should have worked harder, done what they did etc,. with no sense of the privileges they had. They tend to be right wing/conservatives.

Funny that because I’m a borderline communist. The term doesn’t bother me and doesn’t bother you. It does, however, seem to bother quite a few and not help to form a constructive debate on issues it is trying to address. Therefore would it not be more beneficial to use different terminology in order to try and help others empathise? Just trying to see this from a different angle given some of the responses on here and other media when Xxxxx privilege is used.

As for men not understanding or being aware of how some women feel about certain situations is laughable. Of course we do, most of us don’t live in an all male boarding school do we.

Go back a few pages to the story of the husband angry because his wife never filled the car with fuel so he’d get to it and it’d be near empty. Turned out, she wasn’t lazy or stupid or forgetful – she was scared of an environment that most men wouldn’t give a second thought to; being trapped and exposed on a garage forecourt with no means of escape.

Of course not all women feel that way (or maybe not to that extent or under those particular circumstances) but it’s one of many tiny little examples where a traditionally male-run society has evolved/developed with the assumption that things are equal when actually they’re far from equal. The book mentioned earlier, Invisible Women, is a very good read for countless further examples of things that were never intended to be malicious or anti-women but have ended up that way by generally unthinking policies that have just assumed the default “human” is a white male, about 5’10” and 75kg.

And THAT is male privilege.

Turned out, she wasn’t lazy or stupid or forgetful – she was scared of an environment that most men wouldn’t give a second thought to

Bad example imho. I don’t think most women would be bothered by this. Garage forecourts are well lit, open areas with a guarantee of at least one other person being around. So this isn’t male privilege, its one woman with an irrational fear of garage forecourts.

@tj did you just wake up form a coma you fell into in the 60s. Take a look around.

Re forecourts, this actually sums up much of today’s male privilidge, a victim complex.

One of my female friends also hates garage forecourts and avoids going alone. She doesn’t think she’ll be physically attacked, but does get harassed while she’s filling up and cannot move away.
I think decent men sometimes have little idea of quite how gross other men can be to women, and how they’ll take any opportunity to display this behaviour.

Having read through this thread there are some right **** on here.
The thread was started as a discussion about male privilege, then quickly gets turned into a ton of whataboutery – literally male privilege in action.

The same people also then denying it even exists…

Those that cannot accept where they are privileged tend to be the types of people who just say the less privileged should have worked harder, done what they did etc,. with no sense of the privileges they had. They tend to be right wing/conservatives.

Funny that because I’m a borderline communist.

And I’m some sort of socialist anarchist* and generally disapprove of inequality in any form, even when it results from equal opportunity.

I still think privilege is a problematic way to approach issues where the key question is about rights, and especially where those that have the given right don’t play much of a role in the fact others don’t have it. To be sure, I’m not disagreeing with the concept of male privilege as a whole. But in the original context of this thread — feeling safe alone — I think it’s unhelpful.

That said, even when privilege undeniably exists, labelling it as such may not always be the best strategy for unifying people towards change. Just like labelling someone an ‘abuser’ may not be the best way to constructively change their (abusive) behavior towards women.

*though I’m too pessimistic and nervous to ever put any of my thoughts into actions

No one’s asking for men to feel guilty about male privilege, but the mere realisation that it exists and to be aware of where we might experience it. If the word ‘privilege’ makes you feel all uncomfortable when talking about how we don’t have to worry about being abused or raped all the time, then substitute it for another word buttercup.

Where my experience differs from that of a woman is that I knew full well that if I became uncomfortable enough I had the means and power to stop things from progressing due to the simple fact of being bigger and stronger that the vast majority of women. That is the “privilege” that I enjoy due simply to being male. I didn’t ask for it, I didn’t earn it, it’s just the way it is. A woman is far less likely to have such an ability to deal with unwanted and inappropriate attention.

I don’t want to further derail the thread, which is why I included more than just comment on the sexual harrassment I have experienced in my comment (fwiw, it was an eye opener to what most women must experience most of the time – but it isn’t gender based, it’s down to idiots thinking they have some “right” to someone because of how they dress/behave). I would however point out that my friend was harrassed by a large group of women, where his relative size was of little importance. One of my experiences was harrassment from a man – OK so I may not be at a size disadvantage, but physically removing myself from the situation could prove difficult. On a similar note, I’d like to see TJ or others fight off a determined and armed female assailant. Bad people are going to put themselves in a position to overpower you. The gender of the victim isn’t really an issue here.

Nevertheless, none of this happened out in the countryside. I could see how it might apply to, say, bothying, but not to being out in the middle of nowhere.

I was asking if a well trained woman could fight off male thugs. Not being a fighter of any sort I do not know

Tinribs
All those things I mentioned and many more still exist now

I find no guilt associated with being privileged. I am white, intelligent, had good upbringing and have been relatively successful (monetarily). At no point in my life have I ever had to put much effort in to get to where I am.
I am very privileged but rather than feeling guilty I feel empathy to those that do not have the same privileges and accept how lucky I have been.
Those that cannot accept where they are privileged tend to be the types of people who just say the less privileged should have worked harder, done what they did etc,. with no sense of the privileges they had. They tend to be right wing/conservatives.

Funny that because I’m a borderline communist. The term doesn’t bother me and doesn’t bother you. It does, however, seem to bother quite a few and not help to form a constructive debate on issues it is trying to address. Therefore would it not be more beneficial to use different terminology in order to try and help others empathise? Just trying to see this from a different angle given some of the responses on here and other media when Xxxxx privilege is used.

Boris and Jeremy on the same forum?

I was asking if a well trained woman could fight off male thugs. Not being a fighter of any sort I do not know

As I suggested last night, isn’t there just a bit of misogyny in this question?

I wouldn’t choose to have a fight with a black belt male. I’d lose, probably with a certain amount of pain. Any untrained random who thinks they could take on a black belt martial artist is deluded.

However, I’d have a chance of beating a black belt female…..why? Just because it’s expected of me as a man who had a few scuffles as a kid? She’s undergone the same training as the men, is well versed in the physicality of it and used to being hit, and is probably pound for pound stronger than her yobbish assailant.

(I’m using ‘black belt’ as a common unit of reference!)

Boris and Jeremy on the same forum?

😂

I still think privilege is a problematic way to approach issues where the key question is about rights, and especially where those that have the given right don’t play much of a role in the fact others don’t have it. To be sure, I’m not disagreeing with the concept of male privilege as a whole. But in the original context of this thread — feeling safe alone — I think it’s unhelpful.

That said, even when privilege undeniably exists, labelling it as such may not always be the best strategy for unifying people towards change. Just like labelling someone an ‘abuser’ may not be the best way to constructively change their (abusive) behavior towards women.

Can I run my thoughts by you and then you post them? You’re explaining what I’m trying to say only betterer

I wouldn’t choose to have a fight with a black belt male. I’d lose, probably with a certain amount of pain. Any untrained random who thinks they could take on a black belt martial artist is deluded.

However, I’d have a chance of beating a black belt female…..why? Just because it’s expected of me as a man who had a few scuffles as a kid? She’s undergone the same training as the men, is well versed in the physicality of it and used to being hit, and is probably pound for pound stronger than her yobbish assailant.

Training will stand you in better stead, but the issue is propensity for violence. Most thugs are used to it and have capacity for it. The majority of your average citizens aren’t regardless of any training they may have had. Violent attacks out of the blue are a damned sight more vicious and visceral than what happens in a controlled environment.

As I suggested last night, isn’t there just a bit of misogyny in this question?

Biology and physics maybe.

Biology and physics maybe.

Or just your typical male privileged asshat in the person asking the question?

You seem quite aggressive towards the female gender in your responses here. Why is that?

Someone hurt me.

Training will stand you in better stead, but the issue is propensity for violence. Most thugs are used to it and have capacity for it.

Was it Mike Tyson who said ‘everyone has a plan until someone punches them in the face’..

Someone hurt me.

was it one of them horrible women

To my mind there are a few separate things getting mixed into this thread that contribute to at least some of the disagreement, and this is a subject worth finding common ground on. So for what it’s worth I think there are 4 separate questions:

(1) are lone women at high risk of violence, abuse and harm, or do they overestimate the risks?

(2) are the risks that do exist higher than they are for an average man?

(3) if the answer to (1) & (2) is yes there is high risk, and higher than most men experience, then, morally speaking, should this be considered a ‘privilege’ men have, or an absence of ‘right’ women should have? Or both?

(4) if the answer to (3) is yes, it’s definitely male privilege, then is labelling it as such actually useful for increasing awareness and dealing with the issue?

I realise I’m at risk of misrepresenting what’s going on here, but…

If I’m remembering correctly, so far almost everyone agrees with 1), that lone women are at risk. Many agree with 2), although quite a few people have pointed out high rates of random violence against men. But on 3) people are very divided. On 4), me and funkmasterp seem to agree that even when accurate the label ‘privilege’ isn’t helpful, but perhaps most others disagree here, I can’t tell yet.

Can I run my thoughts by you and then you post them? You’re explaining what I’m trying to say only betterer

I realise my post above now looks like I took you very literally sorry…

Good questions lego.

(1) Actual risk? I don’t think it would be classed as high risk (but still a risk yes) if you were to sit down, look at the statistics and do an actual risk assessment, however the consequences are severe should the hazard be encountered. Perceived risk? Yes, very high – higher than the actual risk.

(2) Again – actual or percieved? I think there are two different answers. Risk of physical harm might be higher for men, but harrassment and sexual assualt much much lower. The percieved risk I would say is much lower than the actual risk.

(3) For me it’s something that should be considered as needing fixed. The labels are a distraction from the issue and can switch people off altogether.

Labelling this as male privilege would be fine in the absence of lots of other (including very trivial) things that get labelled as such. Same as what happened with sexual harrassment. I don’t think many people would start off questioning what is and isn’t sexual harrassment. But now an ugly/older/bald/fat etc man innocently looking the wrong way at a women or asking her how her weekend was on a monday morning at work has been added into the mix, or at least a concentrated effort by some to include it into the mix – people will tend more towards just shrugging off the topic altogether as the seriousness of it has been diluted.

Same goes for male privilege. Do men have certain advantages over women in the world? – most definitely. In this country? Yes, still definitely. Do white people have certain advantages over non white people – yes they do. Do some non white people have certain advantages over white people – yes they do. Do women have certain advantages over men – yes they sure do. Again the term has now been watered down – just do a google search for examples and you will see lists upon lists of trivial crap that gets included under the male privilege banner. You have got to expect people to tune out altogether if they read through some of these concerns – who can be expected to care about the male privilege subject when when things like having access to viagra to aid sex life is classed as a male privilege – completely ignoring the huge and growing inductry aimed almost exclusively at womens sex aids/toys as if this isn’t a thing? Turn it around and try and point out the double standards and hypocrisy then you are part of the problem and now the enemy. Oh well in for a penny, in for a pound and all that.

Far far better to tackle each subect individually for what it is – public behaviour issues, violence, sexual assualt etc without grouping it all together as if there is one common cause and perpetrator.

There is no doubt that such labels are now feely been used as a weapon against one demographic of society. This is undeniable and is not a way to effectivly fix very real and serious problems in society – it can only lead to creating more.

IdleJon

Subscriber
I was asking if a well trained woman could fight off male thugs. Not being a fighter of any sort I do not know

As I suggested last night, isn’t there just a bit of misogyny in this question?

The only sensible way to answer this is to arrange a charity cage match between TJ and one of IdleJon’s daughters, or possibly a tag-team.

I’ll have a fiver on IdleJon’s daughter BTW.

For 1 and 2, I’d say the risk of serious repercussions like being raped or bottled is probably quite low. Though, “quite low” is not the same as “none.” Do we argue that it’s worrying unduly because you’ve been out loads of times and only been raped the once?

On the other hand, the chance lower-level unwanted attention for women is probably very high indeed. Leery blokes frotting up to someone on the train, shouts of “nice tits” from across the road, late at night some idiot going “alright darling” and latching on to them… I reckon you’d be hard pressed to find many women this hasn’t happened to at some point, for some it’s a regular occurrence even, and I’d bet that in many cases the overriding thought in the victim’s head is “what’s he going to do next?”

One in five women in the UK have experienced sexual assault at some point in their lives (I just looked it up), and only 1.7% of reported rape cases end in prosecution. Whilst violence against men is certainly a problem and a bloke is probably going to be more of a target for a group of pissed-up idiots looking for a fight, I don’t think that going “yeah, but what about men?” is particularly helpful here.

For 3 and 4, I really can’t help but think this is just whataboutery. If we’re discussing the likelihood of women (or men) being attacked is the burning issue, the very crux of the matter, really “but what are we going to call it?” If you don’t like the term privilege then fine, but in five pages and counting I don’t recall seeing anyone offering an alternative suggestion.

I don’t think the term “privilege” is intended to make anyone feel guilty. But if it does make you feel guilty, well, perhaps that’s not such a bad thing.

The only sensible way to answer this is to arrange a charity cage match between TJ and one of IdleJon’s daughters, or possibly a tag-team.

I’ll have a fiver on IdleJon’s daughter BTW.

Im sure TJ would be far too much of a gentleman to agree to this. 😁 (Teej, a heads up – just tickle the smallest one. Or ask her what men’s and women’s bits are called. She was taught it in school last week. It’s peanits and reginas, apparently. 😂 (Sorry, completely OT for the thread but it made me giggle last night when she announced that!)

On the other hand, the chance lower-level unwanted attention for women is probably very high indeed. Leery blokes frotting up to someone on the train, shouts of “nice tits” from across the road, late at night some idiot going “alright darling” and latching on to them… I reckon you’d be hard pressed to find many women this hasn’t happened to at some point, for some it’s a regular occurrence even, and I’d bet that in many cases the overriding thought in the victim’s head is “what’s he going to do next?”

Completely agree, this is a key issue that needs to be addressed.

If you don’t like the term privilege then fine, but in five pages and counting I don’t recall seeing anyone offering an alternative suggestion.

Serious question: is ‘women’s safety’ not sufficient?

One in five women in the UK have experienced sexual assault at some point in their lives (I just looked it up), and only 1.7% of reported rape cases end in prosecution. Whilst violence against men is certainly a problem and a bloke is probably going to be more of a target for a group of pissed-up idiots looking for a fight, I don’t think that going “yeah, but what about men?” is particularly helpful here.

I agree that the ‘yeah, but what about men’ is a very unhelpful response, but I think this is a defensive reaction to the label ‘privilege’, not a lack of men caring about what women have to deal with. And I think the response would be avoided by talking in terms of women’s safety, domestic violence, etc.

I don’t think the term “privilege” is intended to make anyone feel guilty. But if it does make you feel guilty, well, perhaps that’s not such a bad thing.

Excellent, so men don’t need to feel guilty about the term? So that means its not their fault then?

I am glad we have cleared that up, but I guess we now need to find out who’s fault it is now then?

Serious question: is ‘women’s safety’ not sufficient?

Dunno, I’m not the one complaining about it.

but I think this is a defensive reaction to the label ‘privilege’

I think this is a defensive reaction alright, I’m just not convinced that it’s the terminology which is their real sticking point.

The only sensible way to answer this is to arrange a charity cage match between TJ and one of IdleJon’s daughters, or possibly a tag-team.

I’ll have a fiver on IdleJon’s daughter BTW.

I’d put a tenner on. I haven’t hit anyone since I was 7 years old!

I couldn’t defend myself from an angry mouse

If you don’t like the term privilege then fine, but in five pages and counting I don’t recall seeing anyone offering an alternative suggestion.

Issues that affect women’s feeling of safety and well being.

How about that for a start?

Excellent, so men don’t need to feel guilty about the term? So that means its not their fault then?

That isn’t what I said.

Say you’re quite well off. That in itself is a position of privilege, is it not? Not just because you can afford nice things, but because you don’t have to worry about stuff like affording your rent or having to choose between paying for food or electricity today. Moreover, it might not even occur to you that this might be a problem for some people.

Should you feel guilty about this? Of course not. You’ve worked hard to get where you are, after all. And you’ve got your own problems, your wife is ill and you’re worried about whether brexit is going to mean you have to close some of your businesses. But you can choose whether to use some of your affluence to help out charities, maybe give a couple of quid to the bloke with a dog on a string outside ASDA, or whether to just be self-absorbed and not see past the end of your yacht. And if a little guilt helps you along into being a better person there, I’m not really seeing the problem with that.

Or perhaps “guilt” is the wrong word. Humility perhaps? Empathy?

bazzer

Member

If you don’t like the term privilege then fine, but in five pages and counting I don’t recall seeing anyone offering an alternative suggestion.

Issues that affect women’s feeling of safety and well being.

How about that for a start?

Its about an awful lot more than that tho

Its about an awful lot more than that tho

Is it? well lets have something that describes it better than “Male Privilege” then?

The question should be framed as how do we create a pleasant and safe society for all and how everyone can play their part in realising that.

Excellent, so men don’t need to feel guilty about the term? So that means its not their fault then?

I am glad we have cleared that up, but I guess we now need to find out who’s fault it is now then?

no, no-one needs to, or should, feel guilty.

And it doesn’t matter whose fault it is. That’s not even close to being the point.

this isn’t about blaming people or wanting to punish them for having been born into a western democracy or whatever.

It’s about understanding that some people don’t have the subtle advantages that many of us take for granted (or aren’t even aware of) and using that understanding to help us be more thoughtful and helpful to others.

Thinking it is about guilt or blame or some kind of criticism of any individual is solipsistic IMO.

I think this is a defensive reaction alright, I’m just not convinced that it’s the terminology which is their real sticking point.

I think this is where we differ then — I do feel the terminology is the main issue in the context of this thread.

I have nothing to disagree with in your example above though. That’s all spot on. In fact I think it highlights key difference between the context of this thread, and other forms of privilege.

If you’re particularly wealthy that should be shared around*, partly as it’s by definition a privilege (not everybody can be wealthier than average), and partly as your privilege gives you a direct way of helping others, i.e. by redistributing some of your wealth. But it’s hard to redistribute whatever additional safety you may have as a loan man to a loan women: all you can do is avoid being one of those ass****s that leave women feeling unsafe, and challenge others that do if you have the opportunity and ability to do so.

I also think that in this example of wealthy privilege, defensiveness on the part of the privileged would come from a desire to maintain their privilege. But in the context of this thread, I doubt anyone is defending their right to hit on women in petrol stations, flash them in the woods, or shout nice tits/arse across the street. May be I’m hopelessly naive there, or am still not understanding your position fully.

*As it happens I don’t care if the wealth was hard-earned or not, as I don’t believe the capacity to work hard comes from ‘within’. Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to work hard, stay motivated, etc., for all sorts of social and biological reasons. This is why I don’t like inequality.

That isn’t what I said.

Say you’re quite well off. That in itself is a position of privilege, is it not? Not just because you can afford nice things, but because you don’t have to worry about stuff like affording your rent or having to choose between paying for food or electricity today. Moreover, it might not even occur to you that this might be a problem for some people.

Should you feel guilty about this? Of course not. You’ve worked hard to get where you are, after all. And you’ve got your own problems, your wife is ill and you’re worried about whether brexit is going to mean you have to close some of your businesses. But you can choose whether to use some of your affluence to help out charities, maybe give a couple of quid to the bloke with a dog on a string outside ASDA, or whether to just be self-absorbed and not see past the end of your yacht. And if a little guilt helps you along into being a better person there, I’m not really seeing the problem with that.

Or perhaps “guilt” is the wrong word. Humility perhaps? Empathy?

Actually we are getting somewhere now !!! I would agree we are afforded privilege in some areas of life. There is no doubt about that.

What I am doubting is its relevance to the issues that some people face. In fact its not helpful its actually alienating people who would otherwise be compassionate about the issue.

Its of no relevance if I am scared or not to go and fill my car up with petrol. What is relevant is why someone else (who ever they are) is. Male privilege is just not relevant.

this isn’t about blaming people or wanting to punish them for having been born into a western democracy or whatever.

For a large enough group it is though and that group seem to be be grabbing at the steering wheel of the bus. You can’t blame folk for wanting to get off at that point…