Male Privilege? Out late alone.

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  • Male Privilege? Out late alone.
  • Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
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    PS. If anyone knows how to embed that as a video please point me in the right direction.

    Don’t you just paste the youtube URL without any formatting code, so…

    Meanwhile I’ve just been told that it’s perfectly normal to use house-keys as impromptu knuckle-dusters late at night. Advisable even. ‘Everyone knows that…’ apparently.

    chevychase
    Member

    *cough*

    (there’s actual sciency links, but this being a discussion forum…)

    Before I’d left school I’d had a man expose his genitalia to me, at random, on my way home from school. I’d been kerb crawled on my paper round. And for a girl growing up in Bushey, this was not unusual. From an early age you start to adapt. If going out after dark is unavoidable it’s a simple routine. Only wear shoes you can run a mile in. Make sure someone knows where you are. Carry your keys between your fingers like a knuckle duster. If you have a handbag sling it satchel style. Zip it up, be prepared to swing it at someone. Don’t wear headphones – you want to hear anyone walking behind you. If someone is approaching from behind, cross the road. If they cross the road, cross the road again. Be prepared to run. When you walk, swing your arms – a moving target is harder to grab hold of. Always know what the last train time is but try to make sure you’re on the one before that. Watch who gets off the train at your stop, think about whether you’re comfortable with them walking behind you. Mess with your shoe, your keys, doing your coat up while they go past. Talk loudly on your phone to an imaginary friend who’s “meeting you round the corner” if you’re at all concerned. Send a WhatsApp live location home. Think about your route home so you stay away from bushes and from quiet roads and from hidden entrances. Don’t get so drunk you can’t be alert and take decisions. All normal stuff.

    “You’re just part of the patriarchy trying to control women by making up stories of ‘certain men’ hiding on the trails.”

    No, I’m a husband of a wife and father of a daughter, who also has close female friends who listens to what they say about their experiences as women.

    If a woman has the confidence to night ride solo then that’s great. But if she doesn’t then I won’t tell her that she shouldn’t be scared because probability suggests that she’ll be fine.

    I get scared in the woods on my own – it doesn’t stop me going to and from the group night ride via the trails but I’m not exactly an easy target.

    When the #metoo thing happened I was horrified at how basically every woman I knew had multiple tales of unpleasant experiences caused by men they didn’t know. How many of us men have suffered similarly from the opposite sex?

    Premier Icon db
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    alisonsmiles echos the conversation I’ve had with my daughters neither of which I would call shrinking violets both in front line public facing roles. So come on let’s try and do better, call out inappropriate behaviour when you see, raise your children to be respectful of everyone irrespective of gender. I’m trying but not perfect and could do more.

    And everyone stay safe in them woods!

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    When we were students, we got on a train to go home, about six us, mixed gender. This drunk scumbag started making comments to one of the women, being complimentary in an totally undesirable way. He said something like ‘I’ll leave your girlfriend alone now’ to the chap next to her. Stupidly (were were only 19) he said ‘she’s not my girlfriend’, at which point he sidled right over and started fawning over her chatting her up with boozy breath and all.

    Many men see women as quarry, even if they aren’t trying to be violent or offend. I think this is what feminists mean when they talk about the violence inherent in heterosexual interactions. Men seem to see fit to force their attention onto women even if they don’t mean to be actually violent, and they think this is all fine.

    No assault was reported that night, no assault took place technically, but it had an emotional effect. And it happens all the time.

    chevychase
    Member

    That sucks @alisonsmiles.

    Sounds like my life growing up as a young boy though you can swap a couple of them with actual (not irregular) violence.

    That’s not to belittle the experience of women at all. My original sentiment is heartfelt.

    But I dislike the talk of male “privilege” when there are very real issues men face that, because of long-standing cultural issues, don’t get treated seriously.

    The fact that the whole thing is framed as “male privilege” rather than “female experience” should set alarm bells ringing – but it doesn’t. That’s despite men *overwhelmingly* being the victims of violence.

    But for some reason the world only gives a **** about what’s happening to half of the innocent population.

    Both sexes have shit to deal with and how things were historically shouldn’t have a bearing on how we deal with the present.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    But I dislike the talk of male “privilege” when there are very real issues men face that, because of long-standing cultural issues, don’t get treated seriously.

    Males in general do enjoy privilege in certain areas. It doesn’t mean that men don’t face other issues of course. Male privilege is term that applies to specific things that men can do without worry. Same as white women enjoy white privilege.

    croe
    Member

    call out inappropriate behaviour when you see

    Go call out the next women you see henpecking and belittling her husband in public and see where that gets you.

    Same as white women enjoy white privilege.

    And women enjoy women privilege. Funny you don’t see many campaigns against that though.

    I don’t feel particularly oppressed , but at the risk of sounding like someone on here I have:
    Been sexually propositioned by a middle aged man when I was 14 whilst sitting on a park bench.
    Had a large man simulate masturbation while showing me his penis on a beach in Barbados.
    Climbed out of my bedroom whilst a student to avoid having sex with a drunken female I didn’t want to have sex with.
    I appreciate that some women have it far worse, but have I just been unlucky or is this sort of stuff more widespread than is commonly believed?

    tinribz
    Member

    Not this again. Male privilege is a complete myth.

    If you look at the facts women are far more privileged and pedalalised than men in Western society.

    The fact some people are so blind to it and think the opposite is testiment to how deeply engrained women’s privilege actually is.

    Premier Icon bigginge
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    BWD, thanks for that.

    Otherwise, I have to say that a lot of the (male) voices in this thread make me despair. It’s a shame we all can’t accept that we’ve been gifted with some things in life (even if it’s just the “luck” of being big enough not to have to worry about the other half of the population who could easily overpower you) and accept that there are some issues in society that aren’t about us (men). For us (men) to feel the need to try and make these discussions all about ourselves (ooh, look at all the poor, little, hard done by men) is just embarrassing and gives us (men) all something to be ashamed of.

    Sad face.

    Premier Icon v8ninety
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    Disappointed by the underlying misogyny demonstrated on this thread, although maybe a few years ago I’d have been on the side of the scoffing ones. What changed for me; listening, actually listening to females experiences of doing the same job that I do, dealing with people from the the grim and not so grim end of society. I realised that how people spoke to and treated me is often fundamentally different to how my female colleagues would be spoken to and treated. Both males and females get grief from idiots; but the sort of crap that women deal with is (IMHO) more insidious, often sexual, and actually more about power dynamics than anything I have ever experienced as a bloke. When I put myself (not literally, lol) in the shoes of a usually smaller, less physically powerful, female individual than myself and imagined how that felt, it was a bit of a revelation, but not a pleasant one. It’s nothing to do with what actually happens, more often than not, it’s far more sinister than that. It’s the attempted suggestion from the abuser of what could happen that epitomises ‘male privilege’.

    Take the recent rape ‘jokes’ made by that idiot Ukipper against Jess Phillips. Look at how those were laughed of by him and his supporters, and surely you can see the parallels between that behaviour and the comments from the male privilege deniers on this thread.

    Been sexually propositioned by a middle aged man when I was 14 whilst sitting on a park bench.
    Had a large man simulate masturbation while showing me his penis on a beach in Barbados.
    Climbed out of my bedroom whilst a student to avoid having sex with a drunken female I didn’t want to have sex with.

    Your night rides are more eventful than mine. I *did* see two foxes and an Owl this year.

    Premier Icon cinnamon_girl
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    and actually more about power dynamics

    This.

    wrightyson
    Member

    An event last week on the high peak trail near us which both men and women use frequently in daylight hours was a man knocking one out leering at a woman whilst wearing a pillow case over his head with eye holes cut out. I’m not being funny but that kind of story is clearly going to stop women goung out alone. You just don’t hear of women doing things like that!

    croe
    Member

    whilst wearing a pillow case over his head with eye holes cut out

    Careful now. How did you know it was a man?

    easily
    Member

    FFS,
    The original post was excellent and well thought out. Somehow it’s turned into “what about poor men too?”

    I’d hardly describe myself as ‘woke’, but I think it’s a sad world when many women feel too afraid to cycle alone at night.

    Premier Icon ransos
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    Not this again. Male privilege is a complete myth.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    And women enjoy women privilege. Funny you don’t see many campaigns against that though.

    I wonder why?

    Men dismissing the idea of male privilege is just male privilege at work. You don’t see a problem, because you’re men, whereas most women do see one. This is the entire point.

    I’m no hard nut, I’m not especially big, but I can walk around at night without worrying too much. Sure, I might get mugged, but it’s not particularly likely. Why isn’t it that likely? Because if you wanted to hassle someone, you’d be unlikely to pick me because I’m reasonably well built. If you wanted to be sure of an easy mugging target, you’d be more likely to go for someone smaller, lighter, perhaps physically weaker. Now, which section of society tends towards being smaller and physically weaker on average?

    Suspect that the deniers need to spend some time really actually listening to a variety of women. I mean actually listening not simply dismissing their concerns. How much more **** arrogant can you get?

    women: We’re experiencing a problem here
    men: No you aren’t, cos we say you’re not

    croe
    Member

    More men kill themsleves in the UK every year due to being screwed over by women in separation/divorce and being kept from seeing their children than there are women killed at the hands of men.

    men: We’re experiencing a problem here
    women and other men: No you aren’t, cos we say you’re not

    Where are the countless articles and media onslaught about female privilege and toxic feminiinity? Or is it only a problem when women are at a disadvantage?

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    Now, which section of society tends towards being smaller and physically weaker on average?

    This, and in addition to being the above, woman are involuntary in possession of something that most blokes, in principle, want. And when they are pissed, or scumbags, or thick misogynistic bastards or all of the above they think nothing of expressing their desires in many ways. Subtle, vulgar, aggressive, it’s all about power.

    And decent men get tarred with the same brush, don’t like it, and then deny male privilege exists, putting their status as ‘decent men’ at risk, TBH.

    Premier Icon duncancallum
    Subscriber

    My missus fell runs on the moors all year round on her own.

    She’s more bothered about walking through a town centre.

    More people more chance of knob heads.

    I don’t worry so much

    Premier Icon v8ninety
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    Aye, it’s people that are the problem, generally.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    More men kill themsleves in the UK every year due to being screwed over by women in separation/divorce and being kept from seeing their children than there are women killed at the hands of men.

    You aren’t getting this at all. Once again:

    YES, men suffer. The term ‘male privilege’ does not mean that men don’t have problems. The term refers to a certain set of problems that women have that men don’t. The reason it’s talked about is because so many men are oblivious to it – as this thread shows!

    This isn’t about tarring all men or women with one brush. That would be ridiculous. Of course there are vulnerable men and abusive women. This is well known and talked about. Male privilege and toxic masculinity are very specific gender related issues. Suicide is not a gender issue, having your ex be an arsehole to you is not a gender issue. These things can happen to anyone.

    chevychase
    Member

    Suicide is *absolutely* a gender issue @molgrips. As is violence against men.

    I’m not belittling problems that face women – but as far as I’m concerned “male privilege” is a term that is unhelpful in any debate about equality.

    There are multiple gender imbalances in our society. Discounting violence and suicide – which massively *massively* disproportionately affect men – in favour of pointing out the things women suffer rather than as well as is just another version of getting the plebs to fight amongst themselves.

    bazzer
    Member

    I think the problem is calling it male privilege, rather than issues faced by women.

    Everyone has issues they face some are gender specific and some are faced by both genders.

    Tree frogs don’t face issues with house prices making it hard for first time buyers, but that’s not tree frog privilege is it. It a problem people face with house prices.

    Women having to suffer men exposing themselves to them, is not male privilege its a nasty individual exposing him self.

    Same as a woman making it difficult for a man to see his kids its not female privilege its a woman using a child to get at a guy.

    These are just problems people face and if people of both genders stopped acting like arseholes the world would be a better place.

    tjagain
    Member

    Well said molgrips – you get it. Its astonishing that in this day and age so many guys don’t. I have only skimmed this thread but some of you are living in the middleages still.

    I’m no hard nut, I’m not especially big, but I can walk around at night without worrying too much. Sure, I might get mugged, but it’s not particularly likely. Why isn’t it that likely? Because if you wanted to hassle someone, you’d be unlikely to pick me because I’m reasonably well built. If you wanted to be sure of an easy mugging target, you’d be more likely to go for someone smaller, lighter, perhaps physically weaker. Now, which section of society tends towards being smaller and physically weaker on average?

    On a trail in the dark “in the middle of no-where” all you can see of an approaching MTB is a bright white light. Nobody can tell you’re “reasonably well built”. The real reason you’re not getting mugged at night “in the middle of no-where” is because no mugger is going to walk out into the “middle of no-where” and wait for hours in the hope that tonight might be the lucky night someone rides past. …and that’s why women are just as safe as you are in the context the OP raises. It’s pure perception.

    My missus fell runs on the moors all year round on her own.
    She’s more bothered about walking through a town centre.

    She’s spot on AFAIC, and quite right to ignore the scaremongers.

    An event last week on the high peak trail near us which both men and women use frequently in daylight hours was a man knocking one out leering at a woman whilst wearing a pillow case over his head with eye holes cut out. I’m not being funny but that kind of story is clearly going to stop women goung out alone. You just don’t hear of women doing things like that!

    A crime that would be tricky to commit against women at night because a) The trail wouldn’t be used frequently so the guy probably wouldn’t bother walking up there b) The crim wouldn’t know the approaching MTB was female and c) The approaching MTB wouldn’t be able to get a very good view of the crim’s todger which presumably was his motive for getting it out in the first place.

    A classic example of riding at night being far safer than riding during that day – it just feels scary because the core of our brain comes from prehistoric times when shadows were dangerous because the concealed predators.

    easily
    Member

    Tree frogs don’t face issues with house prices making it hard for first time buyers, but that’s not tree frog privilege

    You are so amphibianist.

    Premier Icon kilo
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    croe

    Member
    More men kill themsleves in the UK every year due to being screwed over by women in separation/divorce and being kept from seeing their children than there are women killed at the hands of men.

    Can you provide your source for this, the only thing I could see after a quick search was this from fathers for justice in late 2017;

    The group say that the Government, the Office For National Statistics and the Samaritans have failed to conduct any meaningful research into the suicide rates of separated dads involved in family court proceedings or establish the trigger factors for these deaths.

    kerley
    Member

    Well said molgrips

    Agree, putting it very clearly although still doesn’t seem quite clear enough for some to understand the male privilege aspect in this specific scenario.

    Tree frogs don’t face issues with house prices making it hard for first time buyers, but that’s not tree frog privilege

    I would imagine that all of those saying that tree frog privilege is tosh are tree frogs suffering from tree frogs privilege.

    Agree, putting it very clearly although still doesn’t seem quite clear enough for some to understand the male privilege aspect in this specific scenario.

    This specific scenario is a case where there is no male privilege whatsoever. A dark trail “in the middle of no-where” is a total gender leveller. The wildlife doesn’t give a toss what gender you are and the rapists and muggers are all looking for victims in urban areas. In the highly unlikely event there was someone hiding in wait they would have no way of knowing the gender of the approaching MTB rider.

    You might as well argue women shouldn’t fly light aircraft at night because rapists might be hiding in the clouds.

    submarined
    Member

    This thread is genuinely making me despair.
    Nobody is saying that men don’t face issues. They are different issues. That’s why there’s an International Men’s Day. It tries to raise awareness of the issues we face such as the disproportionately high rate of male suicide, poor mental health care, equality in marriage separation and parental right, certain particularly vicious cancers, etc.
    What men don’t, as a general rule, experience is

    Before I’d left school I’d had a man expose his genitalia to me, at random, on my way home from school. I’d been kerb crawled on my paper round. And for a girl growing up in Bushey, this was not unusual. From an early age you start to adapt. If going out after dark is unavoidable it’s a simple routine. Only wear shoes you can run a mile in. Make sure someone knows where you are. Carry your keys between your fingers like a knuckle duster. If you have a handbag sling it satchel style. Zip it up, be prepared to swing it at someone. Don’t wear headphones – you want to hear anyone walking behind you. If someone is approaching from behind, cross the road. If they cross the road, cross the road again. Be prepared to run. When you walk, swing your arms – a moving target is harder to grab hold of. Always know what the last train time is but try to make sure you’re on the one before that. Watch who gets off the train at your stop, think about whether you’re comfortable with them walking behind you. Mess with your shoe, your keys, doing your coat up while they go past. Talk loudly on your phone to an imaginary friend who’s “meeting you round the corner” if you’re at all concerned. Send a WhatsApp live location home. Think about your route home so you stay away from bushes and from quiet roads and from hidden entrances. Don’t get so drunk you can’t be alert and take decisions. All normal stuff.

    If you can read that and not be appalled, and still feel like there’s not something deeply wrong, then you’re likely part of the problem.

    Experiences like the above are ‘normal’, if you actually talk to women of all ages and walks of life, it’s a disturbingly common theme, and that’s **** horrific.

    croe
    Member

    Suicide is not a gender issue

    I’m afraid it is you who doesn’t quite get this then. If women being afraid to be out alone is a gender issue then so is suicide. Suggesting one is and one isn’t is blatantly stupid.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I think the problem is calling it male privilege, rather than issues faced by women.

    Well it is on this thread, but really the name is the point. They are issues faced by women, yes, but the point is that men don’t have to think about them and are hence unaware of the extent to which it affects women’s lives. It’s not the behaviour itself that’s under discussion, it’s the fact that men don’t appreciate the effect it has on women’s lives.

    as far as I’m concerned “male privilege” is a term that is unhelpful in any debate about equality

    This isn’t a debate about equality though, not as such. There’s bad behaviour throughout society, anyone can be the victim of assaults of all kinds of course. This discussion is about raising awareness of the extent to which women suffer from this. I mean, everyone will feel anxious walking through a rough part of town at chucking out time, or when there’s a fight going on or something. But many men are unaware of how this kind of fear is everyday, for many women. This is the issue. The OP is a great example – he simply does not feel the need to worry, but his wife does.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I’m afraid it is you who doesn’t quite get this then. If women being afraid to be out alone is a gender issue then so is suicide. Suggesting one is and one isn’t is blatantly stupid.

    Well since I’m not a stupid person, maybe you should think again about how you’re reading this.

    We’re not debating the fact that women are vulnerable. We’re debating that men are oblivious to how it affects their lives every day.

    croe
    Member

    Just like women are oblivious to how certain things affect men’s life everyday that they don’t think about is female privilege. But for some reason that narrative doesn’t exist.

    tjagain
    Member

    Because the issue does not exist and / or is not hidden / ignored?

    Go on – what issues do you mean?

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