Male Privilege? Out late alone.

Viewing 40 posts - 201 through 240 (of 257 total)
  • Male Privilege? Out late alone.
  • PrinceJohn
    Member

    Is it? well lets have something that describes it better than “Male Privilege” then?

    We’re all ears?

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    Got to admit, that for me, ‘male privilege’ is pretty much the perfect term. As Cougar has analogised, (is that a word?) it’s not a bad thing per se to have the privilege. But it’s probably important to recognise the fact.

    If the term makes men a bit uncomfortable then it’s probably working, and how those men then deal with that feeling says more about them than anything else.

    I’m a forty year old white male, and still going through a process of realising how fortunate I am. I don’t feel guilty about it, but I do feel like I have a social responsibility to empathise and try to raise awareness of the inequities within society. So many people walk around with blinkers on.

    bazzer
    Member

    If the term makes men a bit uncomfortable then it’s probably working, and how those men then deal with that feeling says more about them than anything else.

    Thing is I reckon if the term is making you feel uncomfortable you are probably someone who already has some level of empathy. Rather than thinking yeah I should stop making women feel uncomfortable.

    Being able to pee standing up is a privilege I am aware of but saying that the fact women can’t is a result of male privilege is daft.

    tjagain
    Member

    V8 – white male of english Protestant descent living in Scotland – I am the oppressor personified. any oppressed group who oppressed them? Me!

    Going back to an earlier point. One thing I have found fascinating in this debate is those who understand and those who do not seems not to have any link with political persuasion – on here anyway. some folk I think of as reactionary have shown good understanding of the issues, others who are generally progressive have not

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    Being able to pee standing up is a privilege

    Not for the person cleaning the loo/bathroom floor…

    doris5000
    Member

    Being able to pee standing up is a privilege I am aware of but saying that the fact women can’t is a result of male privilege is daft.

    yes it’s daft, you’ve got it upside down!

    Being racially abused in the street is not ‘a result of privilege’, it is a result of racism.

    (and thus no blame should be attached to the average, non-racist, ethnic majority type)

    Being able to live your life without fear of racism – that’s the privilege. An advantage that is not accessible to certain people.

    (and again, it’s not your ‘fault’ that you might have this privilege. But being able to understand and acknowledge it is useful)

    Premier Icon Cougar
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    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    I think this is where we differ then — I do feel the terminology is the main issue in the context of this thread.

    I think perhaps there’s two parallel discussions going on, which is confusing things.

    As it happens I don’t care if the wealth was hard-earned or not

    Nor I, that isn’t what I meant. Plenty of people are born into wealth, for instance. That comment was more to demonstrate self-justification in the example.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Being able to live your life without fear of racism – that’s the privilege. An advantage that is not accessible to certain people.

    That’s an idea. If “privilege” is problematic for some, how about “advantage”?

    croe
    Member

    Or how about we just frame it as some people are disadvantaged? But then a convenient term is lost to beat people with, shut down and exclude from conversation.

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    to beat people with, shut down and exclude from conversation.

    Literally no one is doing that. If anything, the terminology has and will continue to encourage debate and reflection. It’s down to the individual how they react to the challenge of the terminology.

    Nor I, that isn’t what I meant. Plenty of people are born into wealth, for instance. That comment was more to demonstrate self-justification in the example.

    Yes, got ya, I figured you hadn’t meant that, I just wanted to be very clear what my politics are as that seems useful in a debate like this!

    I think perhaps there’s two parallel discussions going on, which is confusing things.

    At least two!

    I do get the idea doris articulated well there — that privilege is used to reference a benefit that one group has more of (on average) than another, and in particular how the former group may be able to go about their lives without thinking about it. I just don’t think makes sense to refer to all such benefits as ‘privileges’, and particularly not the one that started this thread. To (nearly) quote doris, I’d say: “Being able to live your life without fear of racism – that’s a right. A right that is not accessible to certain people.

    Privileges, to my mind, are not something to aspire to but to reject. This was the point of the writer I linked before (here again). I think this is largely why the terminology provokes defensive reactions so often.

    EDIT:
    The problem is that by referring to a whole spectrum of issues as privileges you lump together things like benefiting from plutocracy with things like being free from police brutality or sexual harassment. It risks losing track of what’s wrong with society, and what’s right but not universally experienced.

    to beat people with, shut down and exclude from conversation.

    Literally no one is doing that. If anything, the terminology has and will continue to encourage debate and reflection. It’s down to the individual how they react to the challenge of the terminology.

    I have to agree with croe, I do think this happens quite a lot. May be it often springs from misunderstandings, but in any case there is an issue.

    We’re living in a hugely politically polarised time, and language is fueling the fire.

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    That’s a great article, Lego. I think this paragraph…

    The discourse of privilege creates false dichotomies and unnecessary tension among people who actually agree with each other. If, instead of demanding that the poor white man must acknowledge his privilege, we remind him that other people are being denied their fundamental rights, he may wholeheartedly agree and eagerly join the movement.

    …Probably sums up what people are disagreeing about on this thread, mostly. I’d like to hope, at least.

    I have to say, I’m partially persuaded that the terminology is a problem, because although it doesn’t make me feel defensive/guilty, I can see it has that effect on others.

    Premier Icon funkmasterp
    Subscriber

    Been thinking about elements of this thread a lot today. I’m wondering if the word privilege is just seen as a negative word by some people and that is why it solicits a negative response. I also wonder if in these days of social media some words and phrases can also be overused / used in the wrong context and this can also result in people simply becoming irritated by them. Snowflake, I’m looking at you.

    It’s been an interesting thread for sure and there are a number of separate debates that have branched out from the OP.

    Anybody that thinks women don’t face daily problems that men don’t is either extremely naive or part of the problem. Sadly ‘It’s a man’s world’ still rings true and that needs to change. I’m just not sure that reminding people how lucky they are is the best way of attempting to address any issue.

    On a more serious note I think a charity fight between TJ and Idlejohn’s daughter would be brilliant.

    If you met my wife, you wouldn’t go out late and alone!

    tjagain
    Member

    On a more serious note I think a charity fight between TJ and Idlejohn’s daughter would be brilliant.

    Why do you all want to see me beaten up by a kid? Infamy infamy you have all got it in for me!

    grannyjone
    Member

    I’ve been out after dark a lot recently on my own.
    Last week I hired an E-MTB for 3 days. I wanted to make the most of it by doing two big rides every day. The usual pattern was day ride, Charge it up, Night ride. Only way to get the most out of it.
    It has to be said the Solo Night Rides felt a bit grim at times and was more concerned with just trying to survive the ride rather than push myself on the technical sections.
    Definitely not as fun as riding in the day.
    The only advantage is the sunset (unless the weather is grim as ****) and there are a lot less cars on the road sections!

    bazzer
    Member

    yes it’s daft, you’ve got it upside down!

    Being racially abused in the street is not ‘a result of privilege’, it is a result of racism.

    (and thus no blame should be attached to the average, non-racist, ethnic majority type)

    Being able to live your life without fear of racism – that’s the privilege. An advantage that is not accessible to certain people.

    (and again, it’s not your ‘fault’ that you might have this privilege. But being able to understand and acknowledge it is useful)

    So the issues are not a result of privilege, the privilege does not stop people understanding the issues facing people with these problems. So ergo the whole thing has nothing to do with the privilege. The privilege label is at best irrelevant and at worst alienating.

    kerley
    Member

    So the issues are not a result of privilege,

    Clearly not but that doesn’t stop someone with privilege not having those issues. The problem is where people don’t understand or see their own privilege.

    bazzer
    Member

    Clearly not but that doesn’t stop someone with privilege not having those issues. The problem is where people don’t understand or see their own privilege.

    Rubbish, the problems are the things that create the issues in the first place. Lets look at those rather than pretending Male Privilege has anything to do with it.

    bazzer
    Member

    Also its does not even really mean anything in this context, its just a vacuous sound bite. It helps no one and thats one of the real problems women face.

    The problem is where people don’t understand or see their own privilege.

    That’s very true in the case of something like economic inequality, where the wealthy are often unaware of have much poverty still exists and are at the same time part of the system the produces the issue and have some ability to mitigate it.

    I don’t think it’s true in the context of this thread though. I could be wrong, but I assume that most people who are unaware (or underestimate) the issues of safety or harassment loan women have to deal with are unaware precisely because they wouldn’t consider behaving in such a way themselves, and they’ve probably distanced themselves from those generally unpleasant characters that do.

    So if the aim is to stop people hitting on women at petrol stations, flashing them on the moors, shouting ‘nice xxxx’ across the street, let alone strangers dragging women off the street and raping them (to take a few examples from this thread), I don’t see how a label of male privilege serves any purpose. The problem is those people that think control over, and disrespect towards, women is legitimate — and calling them out on their privilege is hardly going to help.

    kerley
    Member

    Lets look at those rather than pretending Male Privilege has anything to do with it.

    And again, clearly male privilege has nothing to do with it – who has said it does?

    Yes the problems need to be addressed and pointing out that people who don’t have to deal with the problems have male privilege is not going to help.
    However, there is still a male privilege aspect, that is all. Getting people to accept/be aware of their privileges would help in a lot of situations as it would allow them to see where and why those suffering due to a lack of the same privileges are having issues.

    I don’t see how a label of male privilege serves any purpose.

    The term is chosen to polarize opinion and stir up a row. It’s literally trolling. There would be no debate without that inflammatory term. Nobody has disputed that women suffer more of at least one type of bother in busy areas and nobody has disputed that women on a dark trail in the middle of nowhere are not disadvantaged relative to men because in the dark nobody knows you’re female and anyway, there’s only Badgers and Owls about. If you want to troll up a row you have to use strange terminology or the thread wouldn’t get moved from the bike forum to the chat forum and your target audience won’t squabble.

    Or as someone else put it:

    the terminology has and will continue to encourage debate and reflection.

    We’re the suckers for fuelling self confessed trolling.

    And again, clearly male privilege has nothing to do with it – who has said it does?

    However, there is still a male privilege aspect, that is all.

    In the same post! Priceless. Keep ’em coming. 😀

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Thread summary:

    “Some women are afraid to go out alone.”

    “Yeah, but they called us names!”

    bazzer
    Member

    Thread summary:

    “Some women are afraid to go out alone.”

    “Yeah, but they called us names!”

    And your point is caller? 🙂

    Premier Icon timidwheeler
    Subscriber

    nobody has disputed that women on a dark trail in the middle of nowhere are not disadvantaged relative to men because in the dark nobody knows you’re female and anyway, there’s only Badgers and Owls about.

    I’m going to dispute that. If you really believe there is never anyone about on a dark trail then have a read through one of the “strangest things you have seen whilst out riding” threads on here. There are numerous accounts of riders finding doggers, junkies and other delightful people whilst out riding. Men might find this amusing but women find it genuinely frightening.

    On another note, I found this from the BBC last year. It’s about a Runners World survey (American).

    “What was a surprise was how men, and some women, don’t see that it’s a prevalent problem,” says Michelle Hamilton, the journalist behind the Running While Female story.

    The 2017 survey revealed that 43% of women experienced harassment while running – with the number rising to 58% for women under 30. Just 4% of men reported the same.

    The poll also found 30% of women said they had been followed by a harasser on foot, by car or bike. And the vast majority of women said these fears led them to change their habits – to run only during the day, to change their routes, to carry pepper spray or – in the case of 1% of women – to carry a loaded gun.

    Ms Hamilton recalls a huge response from male runners – a mix of support and scorn. Some called the claims ridiculous while others said women just needed to learn how to protect themselves.”

    I’m going to dispute that. If you really believe there is never anyone about on a dark trail then have a read through one of the “strangest things you have seen whilst out riding” threads on here. There are numerous accounts of riders finding doggers, junkies and other delightful people whilst out riding. Men might find this amusing but women find it genuinely frightening.

    The fact it warranted a specific thread on here suggests these things are so unusual as to be worth a thread. There are two dogging spots near me, they don’t go far from their cars and rain+winter puts them off anyway. I really can’t see why a junkie would be far out of town at night. I’m sure it’s happens but the dangers women face are from other people and by definition being ‘in the middle of no-where’.

    Take a look at the reported crime maps in your area, the pattern is pretty clear.

    On another note [snip]

    It certainly is another note. None of this relates to being “in the middle of no-where”.

    Premier Icon IdleJon
    Subscriber

    I’m going to dispute that. If you really believe there is never anyone about on a dark trail then have a read through one of the “strangest things you have seen whilst out riding” threads on here. There are numerous accounts of riders finding doggers, junkies and other delightful people whilst out riding. Men might find this amusing but women find it genuinely frightening.

    There are numerous accounts because they have all been brought together into one thread – as per thread title. If you opened a thread about UFO sightings and read the numerous accounts of sightings you wouldn’t assume that UFOs were prevalent.

    croe
    Member

    The term was first coined in writing as white privilege, before that the original concept was that this privilege was both a legacy and cause of racism. The the two were not seperate. It was a term used by black people. It was then hijacked just like the term #metoo by mostly white women and the meaning changed from its original use. There is a certain irony there, I’ll bet most the people on here using both terms are unaware they are appropriating black concepts and demonstrating they are the very same type of people the term was first used to describe.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    If you opened a thread about UFO sightings and read the numerous accounts of sightings you wouldn’t assume that UFOs were prevalent.

    It’s good to hear that it’s not prevalent. I’m sure it’ll be of great comfort to women to know that they’re probably only going to be in danger of being attacked once or twice.

    bazzer
    Member

    t’s good to hear that it’s not prevalent. I’m sure it’ll be of great comfort to women to know that they’re probably only going to be in danger of being attacked once or twice.

    No the chances are they will not be attacked at all cougar, you know that and I know that.

    The UK is generally a very safe place, most people don’t get attacked when they go outside. Be that the woods or the high street. Violent crime in the UK is rare, but you know that too. It just does not suit your trolling argument.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Violent crime in the UK is rare

    With that in mind, would you be happy to go for a midnight stroll on your own through Moss Side?

    bazzer
    Member

    With that in mind, would you be happy to go for a midnight stroll on your own through Moss Side?

    If I had too for some reason I would, but that’s not what we are talking about is it. Its just another crap argument isn’t it?

    croe
    Member

    There are 790,000 named roads and streets in the UK. How many are you scared to take a stroll on?

    If I had too for some reason I would, but that’s not what we are talking about is it. Its just another crap argument isn’t it?

    This. False Analogy fallacy. It’s just trolling.

    There are 790,000 named roads and streets in the UK. How many are you scared to take a stroll on?

    So parts of Britain are ‘no-go areas’??? Cougar *is* Donald Trump and I claim my free golf cart. 😀

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    There’s plenty of places I wouldn’t go on my own at night.

    And no, I’m not trolling. I’m just trying to drive home the point that “mostly safe” is insufficient.

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