Oh, and,

The example of divorce is interesting. Yes, the courts will heavily bias the woman here, and I think this is definitely something which needs review and modernisation. But it comes from the time when the man was the breadwinner, it exists to protect the woman from – say it together with me if you like – the male privilege which meant that without a big strong man to look after her she’d be screwed. Penniless, homeless and worthless.

I’m just saying that when there is a ‘right’ that we think should be made universal — like access to clean water, or feeling safe walking down the street — we shouldn’t call those that have that right already ‘privileged’, just because others don’t have it.

The privilege isn’t having clean water. The privilege is being in a position where the concept of not having clean water never even crosses your mind.

I think what people are arguing is the incorrect use of the term “male privilege”

There are situations where being a woman definitely puts them at more risk. This is not however male privilege.

There are situations were being a man definitely puts them more at risk. This is not female privilege.

There are advantages and disadvantages that come along with being either gender.

We all need to work on making life as equitable for each other regardless of gender, race or sexual persuasion. Its not a man thing or a woman thing its human thing.

So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.

Police advice is often to not fight back – men and women – for fear of provoking further violence. I am not 100% convinced by this personally. Could a well trained woman stop 4 male boozed up thugs? Or would fighting back just mean more violence?

What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.

Wouldnt it be easier for **** to stop being ****?

Had to change my male genetalia swear word to a female one to make the swear filter work
#maleprivilege

I’m fairly confident that she could put them in hospital very quickly

Then you have been watching too much tv and too many movies.

I’m just saying that when there is a ‘right’ that we think should be made universal — like access to clean water, or feeling safe walking down the street — we shouldn’t call those that have that right already ‘privileged’, just because others don’t have it.

er, but….

privilege
NOUN

a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

It’s an inflammatory way to go about addressing the issue, as labelling someone privileged normally provokes guilt, and indeed this is typically the intention.

IMO it is very small group of people who feel guilt when it is suggested that they have a privilege of some sort. But I honestly don’t know why they have that reaction.

Really well said. What I was making a hash of explaining a bit further up. The label Male Privilege or anything followed by privilege seems a bit like it is designed to piss some people off. Not me personally, but I can see how it might be taken. Privilege really isn’t the right word in my opinion, especially when applied to being out at night.

privilege
NOUN

a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

How does that apply to being out and about at night. There is no special right, advantage or immunity. It seems to be more an individual thing from reading through the thread and chatting to colleagues and family today. Some men and women okay with being out at night, some not. Outdoorsy privilege? Perhaps those who are used to it don’t mind it? I’d rather wander round the woods at night than around a town centre.

IdleJon

All three of my daughters do JJ, BJJ and MMA. The eldest got a silver in the Junior World Champs last year, the middle one got gold.

I have nothing to add to this thread as I’ve been male all my life so know very little of these dilemmas faced by women every day.

But what I will say is you must be one very proud dad IdleJon 🙂

anything followed by privilege seems a bit like it is designed to piss some people off. Not me personally, but I can see how it might be taken.

genuine question – why do you think it seems like that? I just can’t see it!

Then you have been watching too much tv and too many movies.

I wonder why you’d think that, croe? The sports she does are all about subduing a larger, possibly armed, opponent normally by choking or limb-locks. If her opponent on the mat taps she’ll release them. If she wanted to she could damage those limbs, or, as happens occasionally in comps, render her opponent unconscious.

Do you doubt her ability to do this in a street fight because she is a girl? Does your misogyny extend that far? Or are you simply saying that a trained martial artist is no use in a fight, male or female?

Anyway, this is OT – because of your selective editing you missed my point completely.

genuine question – why do you think it seems like that? I just can’t see it!

Normally because it appears to be used in an attempt to guilt trip or label a whole bunch of people. Not the best way to go about having a constructive debate imo. Especially when 99% of the group agree with the sentiment expressed. It’s the way it’s put across. Look at that shite, patronising Gillette advert from a few months ago.

But what I will say is you must be one very proud dad IdleJon 🙂

And yes – very. 😁 Not to mention utterly astonished when I realised what they had done. They are both in the Junior Worlds again in two weeks time, so hopefully can repeat or improve on last year. 😁

Edited

Your daughter sound fantastic idle John and I’d be proud as punch too. Best of luck to her with her future in the sport. If it gives her more confidence all the better and more power to her.

Only on STW could a discussion such as this dissolve into a semantics argument.

How does that apply to being out and about at night. There is no special right, advantage or immunity.

In 47 years on this Earth, not once have I walked somewhere on my own at night and worried that I might get dragged down a back alley and raped. I’ll wager that if you talk to your wives, girlfriends, sisters and daughters, very few would make the same claim. I think that’s quite a privilege regardless of what it might say in a dictionary.

As I’m not a black man in South Africa or America, I can go about my business without fear of being shot at. Privilege or no?

Going to work, I can reasonably expect to be paid the same as my peers. Privilege?

What word do we suggest we use instead, then?

Just talking to my wife about this thread and she told me that my middle daughter’s best friend had to go to give a statement in the police station because a man exposed himself to her on the way home from school last week. She’s 12. No amount of martial arts training will protect her from that.

It’s OK, our resident meninists will be along shortly to tell you that women flash their foofs to 12-year old boys all the time too.

(I’m fairly sure I’d have remembered if that had ever happened to me though.)

Only on STW could a discussion such as this dissolve into a semantics argument.

Not just on STW, that’s partly why I posted the link I did (written by a female lawyer activist, as it happens). I think this thread is a perfect example of why she wrote what she did. Here it is again.

https://medium.com/human-development-project/let-s-stop-talking-so-much-about-privilege-8f9fe543c57e

Ah, I missed that. Will have a look after tea. Ta.

Do you doubt her ability to do this in a street fight because she is a girl? Does your misogyny extend that far? Or are you simply saying that a trained martial artist is no use in a fight, male or female?

I mean no disrespect to your daughters in this (and I’d say exactly the same if you were referring to a son who was martial arts trained) but street fights are not controlled martial arts affairs, no-one bows from the waist down and plays by the rules and it’s not a Jason Statham / Angelina Jolie display of balletic grace and prowess.

It’s a **** mess with punching, biting, kicking, scratching, glass bottles and one punch from a big bloke WILL take you down.

I’m not saying that a trained martial arts person is no use in a street fight (and note, I’m not the person who posted the first comment questioning their abilities) – I’m sure they’d be far more use in a fight than I would be but a brawl or a sudden attack on an individual out of nowhere is definitely not martial arts.

In the cadets at school, we were taught some “dirty fighting” stuff and the RAF Regiment guys said all of the above and then finished by saying, if you did manage to subdue / injure an assailant enough to get free, you don’t hang round and wait for the applause, you don’t take your jacket off and square up to them for some more, you **** off sharpish. They were good teachers, very funny. And actually, even back then, they concentrated on helping the girls to defend themselves saying that the style of attack would be different. Man on man was more likely to be plain violence, man on woman was likely to have an eventual motive of sexual assault.

I posted something similar earlier, but removed it. The sad fact is (and I speak from experience that I’m not proud of here) if you want to learn to defend yourself well, you have to be willing to get very, very violent extremely quickly. Most people simply aren’t built that way. This is a good thing. Self defence training can help to a degree, mainly through situational awareness. Fighting as a sport is far removed from the hideous, animalistic shit that happens in a real world violent confrontation. Run away if you can is the soundest advice.

Enjoyed that article Legometeorology

So. What percentage of females actively seek to change the situation that they face by learning MMA fighting, boxing, karate. Tae kwon do, ju jitsu etc.

oh god this is so retarded I can’t begin to tell you. How about you just teach your sons not to be so…rapey?

I mean no disrespect to your daughters in this (

Yeah, it’s fine. I know exactly what you mean – but I’d give her more of a chance than me. 😁

funkmasterp, yes avoiding is best. My kids would naturally do that, which is sort of the point. As I said, I was responding to the idiot who thought that women who felt at risk should get BJJ training.

Enjoyed that article Legometeorology

Completely agree and these quotes from it sum things up for me.

Calling these things privileges instead of rights does not take seriously enough what is being denied to people who lack them

We should be angry that some people are denied those basic human rights, but no one should ever feel guilty for having them

And that is why anything followed by privilege is, in my eyes, a rubbish approach to starting a sensible conversation on these matters. The language used makes all the difference.

Thanks for the link. A well written and great article.

funkmasterp, yes avoiding is best. My kids would naturally do that, which is sort of the point. As I said, I was responding to the idiot who thought that women who felt at risk should get BJJ training.

Missed that post thankfully. That’s a very stupid thing for somebody to post.

What if I said there was a country where 85% of the homeless are women, they are given longer prison sentences for the same crimes. 30% less go to university. They die younger and are injured more in their jobs.

You’d probably say that county had a problem.

An interesting perspective on male privilege from transgendered men:

I do notice that some women do expect me to acquiesce or concede to them more now: Let them speak first, let them board the bus first, let them sit down first, and so on. I also notice that in public spaces men are more collegial with me, which they express through verbal and nonverbal messages: head lifting when passing me on the sidewalk and using terms like “brother” and “boss man” to acknowledge me. As a former lesbian feminist, I was put off by the way that some women want to be treated by me, now that I am a man, because it violates a foundational belief I carry, which is that women are fully capable human beings who do not need men to acquiesce or concede to them.

What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being.

I can recall a moment where this difference hit home. A couple of years into my medical gender transition, I was traveling on a public bus early one weekend morning. There were six people on the bus, including me. One was a woman. She was talking on a mobile phone very loudly and remarked that “men are such a–holes.” I immediately looked up at her and then around at the other men. Not one had lifted his head to look at the woman or anyone else. The woman saw me look at her and then commented to the person she was speaking with about “some a–hole on the bus right now looking at me.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/

We should be angry that some people are denied those basic human rights, but no one should ever feel guilty for having them

The term isn’t meant to make men feel guilty. It’s pointing out the advantages that men might not realise they have. You can’t avoid it, so there’s no requirement for you to feel guilty, you just need to know about it. White privilege also exists, but in that case there might be more that you can do about it.

And that is why anything followed by privilege is, in my eyes, a rubbish approach to starting a sensible conversation on these matters.

I dunno, it makes a point. But the thing is that in trying deny the term you look like you are denying the problem or at least diverting from it.

This is a weird thread. Just about to head out on a night ride. May see you later.

The term isn’t meant to make men feel guilty. It’s pointing out the advantages that men might not realise they have.

Must admit I was about to post that there can’t be many men who wouldn’t realise that women feel they have to be more careful of where they put themselves. Do they not have women in their lives they can talk to? Then I re-read the OP so ho hum maybe the ignorance is more widespread than I would have believed. However it doesn’t alter my belief that calling it ‘privilege’ is counterproductive & an oversimplification of why women feel threatened.

However it doesn’t alter my belief that calling it ‘privilege’ is counterproductive & an oversimplification of why women feel threatened.

Once again somebody does words better than me.

So the concept is accepted, but the label isn’t? Interesting. Couple of questions; why is the label so disagreeable to you, and what would you call the issue in question?

Should you be out by yourself at night every drunk/druggy/nob-head feels that you are clearly desperately lonely and therefore obliged to be their new best friend.

It happens in broad daylight as well, it happens to my g/f on the till at B&M, and the other girls, we were only talking about it earlier this evening.

In the cadets at school, we were taught some “dirty fighting” stuff…

Ah ha – who knew we had an expert in our midst.

So the concept is accepted, but the label isn’t? Interesting. Couple of questions; why is the label so disagreeable to you, and what would you call the issue in question?

Read the linked article, sums it up much more eloquently than I ever could. Labelling these issues as a privilege for those not directly affected as opposed to a right for those that are is the problem imo . Like it or not it’s seen by some, not me but clearly others on this very thread, as apportioning blame. Women have a right to feel safe and that is what we should be fighting for and labelling it as, a right. Calling it a privilege for others is coming at the issue from the wrong direction imo. Just doesn’t seem like the right way to create empathy in people. Just my opinion and I don’t really find the phrasing offensive, I just see how others might.

Read the article, see what you think. It makes a lot more sense than I do.

My daughter is awesome at stuff like that, just the look is enough!!!!

Everyone has the right to be heard, the right to be considered beautiful, the right not to live in fear.

Who makes all these rights up and where are they written down?

In 47 years on this Earth, not once have I walked somewhere on my own at night and worried that I might get dragged down a back alley and raped.

Tell me about your other fears.

So the concept is accepted, but the label isn’t? Interesting. Couple of questions; why is the label so disagreeable to you, and what would you call the issue in question?

Because it misses the point as it is designed to lay guilt on men, if you don’t realise that you have been fooled. The very fact we are having this conversation proves it.

When I say it misses the point I mean it should not about what men have or what men can do. We she be focusing in the issues that face women and sorting them out. Even if some of those issues affect men too. It should have nothing to do with what one gender has or can or can’t do. We should focus on the issues that are the problem and resolving them.

As for men not understanding or being aware of how some women feel about certain situations is laughable. Of course we do, most of us don’t live in an all male boarding school do we.

Because it misses the point as it is designed to lay guilt on men,

Its not designed to have any particular effect and certainly not this one. Its just a nice simple way of stating that men have advantages that women cannot access. Its not just about going out late at night. Its about getting promoted at work, its about earning more for the same job, its about all sorts of issues.

It is male privilege

it misses the point as it is designed to lay guilt on men

Should it not lay guilt towards men? As it is conditioning from predominantly male behaviour that makes females react as in the OP.