[Closed] Made me ashamed to live where I do

Is the land used for anything at all, have they parked up on a football pitch?

A surprising number of people with strong opinions about "human rights" have almost no idea what the concept involves, do they?

Get one of these and go and show your support...

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its all a bit wrong really.

im not sure its a human right to park a van and caravan on privately owned land ?

equally im not sure the gym is a human right either.

[i]I was speechless.[/i]

What exactly are you speechless about? 😕

Which human rights allow the di... errrm Travellers to trespass and prevent access to the health club?

Made me ashamed to live where I do

Which caravan is yours? ....and isn't the geographical nature of your shame easily remedied? 8)

Beaten to it. Was just going to add that as an edit. Damn you sausage boy 🙂

You're worried about the local populace's attitude to gypsies? Come to Morley and you'll probably be reassured that it's not quite as bad where you are..

We have public meetings about plans to expand [b]legitimate[/b] sites with hundreds unable to get into the town hall and councillors trotting out "over my dead body" type comments (and, of course, no representation from the gypsy and traveller communities themselves).

[i]Is the land used for anything at all, have they parked up on a football pitch?[/i]

Football season start soon! 😡

It seemed to me that people could be a little less unpleasant I was surprised people get away with such open hatred.. Treat people like animals and that's what you get.

Had some travellers manage to get into the local park recently and set up. Pain in the posterior - they just leave rubbish in bags outside the caravan so the foxes rip into them. Eventually the police were called because they were driving around the football fields a high speed one evening for a laugh. Left a lot of mess.

My local park is well-used, especially in the summer months, for football training (boys and girls which is good), rugby, marching band practice, cricket and even croquet so it was a bit of a problem.

They eventually moved on but at the expense of the tent show as they had to lock the gates and customers couldn't park to buy stuff (that's how they managed to get in) and had to park elsewhere and walk in.

"Treat people like animals and that's what you get."

nope thats definantly how they arrived.

the first set we had were lovely people - about 12 families in all - nice clean living , tidy people.

then another 30 turned up - the first 12 were forced out - this lot were roudy , abusive, stealing sheep and butchering them for the fire , leaving rubbish , chucking it out of their windows as they drove up the road , stole a motorbike and burned it out in the quarry.

live and let live but that lot....well. animals as you say.

I find the charming Romany types most appealing trait, when they set up near us recently, was just squatting down and curling off a big steaming turd in the middle of the footpath

It was an interesting little history lesson in what life must be like . Going for a walk and avoiding the depth charges all over the place, from delightful travelling folk treating the place like an open sewer

[i]It seemed to me that people could be a little less unpleasant I was surprised people get away with such open hatred.. Treat people like animals and that's what you get.[/i]

Its hardly open hatred, although hearing some of the stories from people who have had to deal with these situations.....it would hardly be surprising if it were.

How about the adage of treating people as you would like to be treated and respecting other peoples lives? What gives anyone the right to park their homes on other peoples land and.....oh you know the rest!

Some people are idiots, some are not. Lifestyle or culture has nothing to do with this.

As above really, if they could look after their sites better, not be too anti-social and leave no trace, they would have many more places open to them.

So to clarify. If Danny Mac does his next video in a travellers site, then STW would implode?

....and Danny would probably get his bike nicked.

Binners

Sometimes you need to confuse the opposition.

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Step away from the keyboard, fasthaggis.

You're obviously plastered.

I've met some lovely members of the travelling community at permanent sites - though I'm never sure how a traveller can have a permanent site tbh. Keep their sites and vans immaculate, very respectful, though they have some very "old-fashioned" views on some issues.

I have also had to deal with the "trespassing" variety of travellers, nearly of whom were arrogant, confrontational and convinced that they have a God given right to do as they please on other peoples property with impunity, usually involving their "human rights".

A little tolerance on both sides would help the reasonable majority find a way to co-exist. I would be tempted to then adopt a swift zero tolerance approach to the remaining extremes on both sides of the debate. 👿

I used to commute past a designated local authority well-maintained Traveller caravan site and there was rarely more than a few vans there. Having not had the opportunity to treat travellers in any particular way my experiences of them have all been negative. Sad, but true.

OP lets here some of your positive experiences with travellers.

I was speechless

We had a £5000 clean up bill after these quaint travellers invaded our company grounds. Sorted our scrap disposal out though but that's usually our xmas bonus.

"We have human rights and we can't use the healthclub, People pay to use that facility, they are being denied their human rights too"

It seemed to me that people could be a little less unpleasant I was surprised people get away with such open hatred.. Treat people like animals and that's what you get.

It's got nothing to do with my experiences with travellers good or otherwise. It's that someone could, without a hint of irony, use the words human rights in regard to their gym membership. It's a bit indicative of how, as prices rise in an area, normal people with a sense of perspective are replaced by insular dickheads who think their wealth gives them special rights to treat and think about other people as though they are shit. Perhaps hatred was the wrong word but it's a hateful mindset.

happened a few weeks ago in a gym in orpington .

same comments about unable to use the gym in the local newspaper .

actually shows 'hatred'...

Oh FFS, don't go and spoil it. I was just starting to foam at the mouth.

I thought gypo's were the last type of people its still acceptable to hate? Well them and fatties of course.

edlong - Member

You're worried about the local populace's attitude to gypsies? Come to Morley and you'll probably be reassured that it's not quite as bad where you are..

We have public meetings about plans to expand legitimate sites with hundreds unable to get into the town hall and councillors trotting out "over my dead body" type comments (and, of course, no representation from the gypsy and traveller communities themselves).

I know the site they are trying to expand and it's a shit hole. Plenty of police raids there to recover stolen goods. Nice bunch of people there that are just misunderstood.
If I still lived in Morley I would object too. Ask the local businesses how they like their neighbours including the farm above them.

I'm 25% Gypsy. Funerals can be interesting.

I thought gypo's were the last type of people its still acceptable to hate? Well them and fatties of course.

Gingers, can we still do the Gingers?

I would suggest that the OP updates us on his feelings towards the travellers in about 3 months time.

Who'd be a fat ginger gypsy these days eh?

Seems to me that if I was a traveller I'd be off around Europe enjoying the sun. Or do they need to be here for benefits?

"Treat people like animals and that's what you get."

treat somebodies property like a pig sty and get treated like animals.

I'm still slightly confused why the O :?P thinks membership of a gym excludes you from human rights legislation

craigxxl - Member

edlong - Member

You're worried about the local populace's attitude to gypsies? Come to Morley and you'll probably be reassured that it's not quite as bad where you are..

We have public meetings about plans to expand legitimate sites with hundreds unable to get into the town hall and councillors trotting out "over my dead body" type comments (and, of course, no representation from the gypsy and traveller communities themselves).

I know the site they are trying to expand and it's a shit hole. Plenty of police raids there to recover stolen goods. Nice bunch of people there that are just misunderstood.
If I still lived in Morley I would object too. Ask the local businesses how they like their neighbours including the farm above them.

Not that site as it goes, but I know the one you mean, very close to where I live and I pass it often. There are indeed many objections about the expansion of that site, and pretty reasonable ones to. In fact, many of the Gypsies / Travellers, and certainly GATE (the charity that supports / advocates in Leeds for that community) all agree that the proposed expansion isn't suitable or appropriate.

No, this was about a proposed new site, on the old Orcol oil recovery site by the station if you know the area (prior to that the gasworks, gives you an indication of how suitable that land might or might not be to be lived on). Again, there are many reasonable objections to why this may not be a suitable residential site for travellers, but much of what was reported from the public meeting was not reasonable, it was racist stigmatisation and ignorance that would almost certainly not be tolerated against any other group, but is okay when aimed at Gypsies and Travellers.

I have had hundreds of exchanges with gypsies, all of them negative
Never had the truth out of them
Locked a fair few up for ripping old people off for building jobs
In my opinion they are a waste of space

slowoldman - Member

Who'd be a fat ginger gypsy these days eh?

What are the hours?
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Back in the 80s if you rode a motorbike you were a baby killing hellos angel.
You couldn't go in most pubs or restaurants. So toy runs were organised and a major PR push to let everyone know we were nice people.
Travellers should really take that advice on board rather than trashing everything within a mile of where they camp.

I know the site they are trying to expand and it's a shit hole. Plenty of police raids there to recover stolen goods. Nice bunch of people there that are just misunderstood.

So are they actually nicking stuff and the police are getting it back or are the police just assuming that they're on the rob?

Locked a fair few up for ripping old people off for building jobs

My grandfather got taken by a load of them before he died. Luckily my old man was called by the bank after they came back for a second load of cash so he was able to deal with it.

It's a good job nobody is ever ripped off by cowboy builders/groundworkers/lanscapers etc that aren't travellers. It gives a good indication of who to employ to do work around your house.

it was racist stigmatisation and ignorance that would almost certainly not be tolerated against any other group, but is okay when aimed at Gypsies and Travellers.

If any other group sets up shop near my house, like the Pikeys did last year, then proceeded to not only treat the place like dump, but an open sewer too, curling off steaming Jobbies on the surrounding footpaths, I'll let you know my feelings about them. I'd hazard a guess, they'd be less than positive though.

People don't object to them because of some small-minded, bigoted, ignorant prejudice, they object to them because of their own experiences of them acting like a bunch of ****s!!! 🙄

easygirl - Member

I have had hundreds of exchanges with gypsies, all of them negative
Never had the truth out of them
Locked a fair few up for ripping old people off for building jobs
In my opinion they are a waste of space

I might be wrong, but iirc you're a police officer? If so, isn't that a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy - of course the ones you encounter professionally are crooks - that's the nature of your job? You don't have to deal with the law abiding ones, because they're, er, law-abiding.

If any other group sets up shop near my house, like the Pikeys did last year, then proceeded to not only treat the place like dump, but an open sewer too, curling off steaming Jobbies on the surrounding footpaths, I'll let you know my feelings about them. I'd hazard a guess, they'd be less than positive though.

People don't object to them because of some bigoted ignorant prejudice, they object to them because of their own experiences of them acting like a bunch of ****s!!!

There's a hell of a difference between objecting to the behaviour of some people and labelling a whole ethnic group (been done on a previous thread, look up the court rulings if you want to check, they are defined as such) on the back of it. On a slightly silly level it's akin to those nobs you get who, when they find out you ride a bike, hold you personally responsible for the fact that "all" "you lot" jump red lights, ride on pavements etc.. On a slightly less silly note, it's also akin to those people who say that all Muslim men are out to abduct and sexually abuse white girls, because they've read a report about some who did.

If you really think that all Gypsies / Travellers are thieving street poo-ers because some are, then you're either being deliberately obtuse, or are extremely ignorant.

Well they did it near our house, as well as getting collared breaking in to my local, then a few months later, another group occupied the car park where I work. Where, to absolutely nobodies great surprise, they repeated the same pattern of dumping all over the place (both their undercarriages and their general detritus) and getting light fingered in all the surrounding properties

So, they're consistent. I'll give them that. Or maybe I was just unlucky, and the nice, tidy, well-behaved, polite and courteous travelling folk - the one who's public-public-spiritdness we always hear so much about - were busy being kind, caring, considerate members of society somewhere else on those occasions 🙄

Perhaps they were, how would you know? You don't of course, so you therefore conclude that because the ones you're aware of, because of their anti-social / criminal activity, are antisocial / criminal, therefore they all must be.

I don't understand how anyone can fail to see the logical fallacy in that.

The dictionary definition of prejudice is "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience."

My personal experience of the traveler community consists of:

Trying to bribe me to look the other way whilst they stole things from the family owned shop I was working at and threatening violence when I refused.

Trying to sell me blatantly stolen goods on a garage forecourt and again, trying to intimidate me when I refused.

Attempting to steal my bike off me (Twice)

Smashing into my mum's car whilst I was in the back and then doing a runner, car was registered under false documents, uninsured, no tax, no MOT and the driver was drunk as a lord.

Putting a 67 year old man in hospital after he went over to ask them not to park their caravans on the village cricket pitch his family had spent the past 40 years maintaining.

Threatening my friends at knifepoint at the local pub after they'd camped nearby.

+ All the usual devastation they leave whenever they stay anywhere, rubbish, human feces etc.

Baring that in mind I'm putting my wariness towards this particular social group down to experience rather than any innate bigotry.

If my experiences improve and I encounter a group of nice, tidy, law abiding travelers then I shall be more than happy to change my opinions.

There's some good research showing that negative experiences of people from 'other' groups/races etc have much more impact on you than positive ones, or of negative experiences with someone of your own race. IIRC one negative experience has as much impact as 10 positive ones. Will try and find a link later when not on my phone.

Pretty poor for a (serving?) police officer to be writing off an entire group in society as being a 'waste of space'. There's going to be a hefty dose of confirmation bias involved with any dealings with them if that's your attitude.

And yes, I've worked with traveller kids in the past and found them 'challenging'. Not fair to tar them all with the same brush though.

Well if anyone would like to enlighten me as to anyone who's had any positive experiences with them, I'm happy to hear them, and consider my own experience to be a freak aberration.

Thats not going to happen though, is it? Because everyones experiences with them are exactly the bloody same! They involve anti-social behaviour, criminality and violence, with wearying predictability.

Its fairly simple. You spend your life being a *, people will draw the conclusion that you are in fact a *! 🙄

If you really think that all Gypsies / Travellers are thieving street poo-ers because some are, then you're either being deliberately obtuse, or are extremely ignorant

I think you need to trade in your rose tinted glasses, just some of my experience:

They stole my van, wrecked it, then shat all over the inside, it was found on one of their sites by one of the regular police raids, nobody was ever prosecuted.

They broke into our factory and stole a load of electrical cable, caught them on CCTV, again nobody prosecuted

They lifted all the lead off the roof, the police stopped one with a load of lead in the back of his van, but as the lead could not be 'identified' he got away with it.

Not to mention the carnage they caused on the industrial estate we were on, robbing and generally turning the place into a shit hole.

A local print company mistakenly did a job for one lot, they quickly became pikey central, they used to turn up all the time and just cause chaos, a proper nightmare.

My father never had any love for them either, he had numerous dealings in his job as a copper

My father in law detests them, blindly hates them all. If there is crime in his village 'it's the pikeys'. I cringed with embarrassment everytime he spoke about them. Despite my own personal experiences with travellers only being bad up to that point I wasn't going to give in to small minded prejudice so would attempt to challenge his views. I had to spend the best part of a year working with him a couple of years ago which involved us working outdoors all around the east midlands and south east. As a result we encountered travellers very regularly and our experiences with them were all bad. From aggression towards us, to rubbish being thrown out their car windows, to assault, to theft of our equipment, to vandalism of our vehicles and equipment and the obligatory tails from clients regarding their woes and difficulties with near by travellers sites.

Needless to say I no longer challenge my FiL's views on them because it's very hard to defend the indefensible. The best I have is " i'm sure they're not all like that", which doesn't really cut it.

Its fairly simple. You spend your life being a *, people will draw the conclusion that you are in fact a *!

As well you should know binbins.

Pretty poor for a (serving?) police officer to be writing off an entire group in society as being a 'waste of space'.

Not really, it's well known that Police are bigoted, insular racists 😉

don't travellers generally not mix a lot with the rest of the population? So most of the "personal experience" people have, that they remember, are bound to be negative?

All the personal experience I have of jehovah's witnesses are them trying to convert me to their religion, cheeky sods, I may well have had lot's of positive/neutral experiences of them and not noticed.

but yeah 100% negative here too, just saying that that in itself only proves that the travellers I have met, [i]that I have known to be travellers[/i], were gits.

So what are we outraged about, who are we outraged on behalf of or what handwringing are we doing today?

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Is it that travellers don't want to be part of our society? So not really possible to be a positive part of it unless they, say, clean up bad areas before living in them then move on leaving it better than when they arrived.

Would our society be a better place without them? Can we have that place? Suspect not. Though do wonder how they finance themselves.

FWIW someone I know who has done a lot more work with travellers than me reckoned there was quite a distinction between the Romany travellers and the Irish, although there is some mixing between the two. Basically that the Romany travellers were generally alright and the Irish travellers were generally shocking scallies. Not sure how true that is and it's obviously another massive generalisation.

Anyone seen Knuckle btw? Fascinating documentary.

Would our society be a better place without them? Can we have that place? Suspect not. Though do wonder how they finance themselves.

Theft and fraud mainly, it would appear

unless they, say, clean up bad areas before living in them then move on leaving it better than when they arrived.

Nice - like a kind of traveller superhero?

"Pikeyman" - [i]Fighting litter and grime for a better world and not nicking anything - honest[/i]

FWIW someone I know who has done a lot more work with travellers than me reckoned there was quite a distinction between the Romany travellers and the Irish, although there is some mixing between the two. Basically that the Tomany travellers were generally alright and the Irish travellers were generally shocking scallies. Not sure how true that is an is obviously another massive generalisation.

Anyone seen Knuckle btw? Fascinating documentary.

Yes, sorry Grum, I should have drew that distinction in my post. My experiences were with Irish Travellers of which there are many of their sites in the areas we were working. I can't say I've had any experience with Romany Travellers, not that I was aware anyway.

Meanwhile they've booked in early for the Anglesey Show.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-28689022 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-28689022[/url]

I like travellers, but then I also like gorgers.... but which is better?

Only one way to find out

FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!

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Basically that the Tomany travellers were generally alright and the Irish travellers were generally shocking scallies.

No irish <[i]travellers[/i]>
[s]no blacks[/s]
[s]no dogs[/s]

"Pikeyman" - Fighting litter and grime for a better world and not nicking anything - honest

Thinking about it...we might actually be happyish to give them places to stay for a while if they did that. Must be hard to find somewhere where you're not hated. A few seem to have camped themselves on a rather nice bit of countryside south of Combe Gibbet near Newbury. Not sure they're adding much to the visual appeal of the area.

BTW if you want some proper gypsy hate try going to Eastern Europe. In Romania even quite liberal people basically thought they should all die. We literally met one person who thought it would be a good thing to have better relations with the gypsies.

I suspect part of the problem is a bit of a chicken and egg thing - they know how much wider society hates them and so don't give a shit what wider society thinks. If they did behave themselves would they still get blamed for stuff? Quite probably.

BTW if you want some proper [s]gypsy[/s]minority hate try going to Eastern Europe

FTFY

The far right is still very strong in Eastern Europe. They hate everyone.

You don't of course, so you therefore conclude that because the ones you're aware of, because of their anti-social / criminal activity, are antisocial / criminal, therefore they all must be.

I don't understand how anyone can fail to see the logical fallacy in that.

You're concluding that because Binners is talking about the groups of travellers he's had experience of, he's implying the same is true of all of them.

I really don't get this train of thought. It's seemingly impossible to talk negatively about a subset of a demographic without folk immediately assuming you're making rash generalisations about all of that demographic and then branding you a racist or worse. So, what, we can't discuss it? Why do travellers get special privilege here?

My own personal experience of them is very limited but wholly negative. But I'm not stupid enough to think that my minimal experience is representative of all of them, any more than I'd think that all Polish people are bastards because one spilled my pint once. It may well be that the country is covered with lovely 'leave no trace' travellers who no-one ever notices because they, well, leave no trace. If you drive past twenty motorcyclists on your way home and one of them is in full race leathers wheelie-ing down the street at 80, which one do you remember?

But the groups Binners et al are talking about, [i]are [/i]scumbags. They may or may not "all be like that" but that's not really the point being made is it? TBH I'm quite baffled how it's all right for a group of people to turn up, trash the place and sod off again, but it's not all right to call them names. Do me a quaver.

labelling a whole ethnic group

A farmer near me had a small group set up in one of his fields, when he asked them if they wouldn't mind moving he was basically laughed out of the field. To get rid of them he put a Bull in with them and a boulder in front of the gate so they couldn't get out. They couldn't even leave their vans without this bull charging at them. They asked him to move the boulder so they could leave in less than a week :D.

On the flipside of that the girlfriend has met Paddy Doherty (he of Gypsy Wedding fame) a few times and he's always been happy to talk to her and generally came across as a reasonably nice guy. Her dad said the same as he worked in Salford about 100yds from their 'camp'. Although he also said the sons were right a**eholes.

I've lived with 'em, worked with 'em.. went to primary and secondary school with 'em.. I have a few on my FB friends list and a couple of 'em that I go for a pint with occasionally..
I don't think I've ever lived more than 10 miles away from an established council site

My experience has been wholly positive

Maybe we're just lucky down here?

I've lived with 'em, worked with 'em.

Yunki - What do you do? Tarmac drives or collect scrap metal?

Cougar. binners quite clearly [i]is[/i] making generalisations about travellers as a whole, not just the ones he has met. 😕

You can say 'I have a negative impression of all the travellers I've met' and no-one will call you a bigot (though you should quite probably read up on confirmation bias etc). But say 'travellers are scum' and you are going to get called a bigot. Simple really.

Yunki - What do you do? Tarmac drives or collect scrap metal?

When I was working [i]for[/i] the travellers we were primarily concerned with tarmac and applying it to driveways yes..
It was a good craic, shit pay though

Well if anyone would like to enlighten me as to anyone who's had any positive experiences with them, I'm happy to hear them, and consider my own experience to be a freak aberration.

Thats not going to happen though, is it? Because everyones experiences with them are exactly the bloody same! They involve anti-social behaviour, criminality and violence, with wearying predictability.

The ones I ride my bike past regularly on a little (official, approved, legal) site on the corner of a local industrial estate always return my cheery 'good morning', have clean caravans, clean looking kids playing outside, no sign of poo, burnt out vehicles or stripped cable insulation, have never tried to rob me, stab me, or sell me anything. It's almost as if they're normal people.

Many years ago, I worked in about the only east end (London) boozer that didn't ban any Irish-accented punters who seemed to arrive in large family groupings. Most of them were really nice people, a few of them were absolute idiots who conformed to the stereotypes. We took the novel step of banning the nobheads, rather than banning the lot of "them". The ones who weren't barred appreciated it and never caused the slightest problem. It was almost as if they were normal people.

[i]Cougar. binners quite clearly is making generalisations about travellers as a whole, not just the ones he has met. [/i]

Seems pretty reasonable to me........after all, everybody else is confirming his generalisations! I'd just like to know what world joolsburger lives in?

Cougar. binners quite clearly is making generalisations about travellers as a whole

+1 indeed.

Furthermore, travellers don't get special treatment on STW. In fact, as this thread and plenty others previously, travellers are the one group (outisde heterosexual, white middle class, smoking males) about whom people can say whatever they want with relative impunity for many pages.

Seems pretty reasonable to me........after all, everybody else is confirming his generalisations! I'd just like to know what world joolsburger lives in?

Apart from yunki and edlong. So not everyone.

I'll admit to being wary of travellers, based on my experience and that of others. That's a bit different from deciding they are all thieving scumbags.