Legal eagles and Good Police of STW assemble; What should happen next?

I would very much appreciate the opinions of the good people of STW as to what the outcome of the following hypothetical scenario should be. I’m interested in both general public opinion, as well as actual informed opinions from people in ‘the trade’ so to speak.

Okay. This is entirely hypothetical and definitely didn’t happen last weekend.

A collapsed male on the street; alcohol related. A concerned male friend. Paramedics called; a male solo responder with an (unpaid) female student paramedic observer arrived first. Double crewed ambulance arrived shortly afterwards. The solo paramedic has built up a good rapport with the concerned friend, the collapsed male is disorientated. As he’s being assisted onto the stretcher, he slurringly asks what’s going on. “We’re going with these ****” says concerned friend. “I’m sorry, what?” asks a frankly surprised crew member. “You heard, ****!” Says concerned friend. Unsurprisingly, he’s now told to walk away. In the confusion, the female paramedic student gets squared up to by the concerned friend. The Paramedic responder sees this and intervenes; putting himself between the friend and the student. The friend calms down, after all, he’s got a bit of a rapport with this paramedic. Just as paramedic starts to turn to turn to walk away, WALLOP. A remarkably well aimed and fairly unexpected fist lands heavily on his nose, shattering bone and knocking the paramedic down. A dozen bystanders immediately jump on the attacker, who is subdued and arrested by police who were only 50yds away. The paramedic is concussed; admitted to hospital and CT scanned. Nothing hugely serious is found, but he is probably going to need nasal septum surgery.

Hypothetically, what would be an appropriate way of dealing with this character by the police and CPS? Hypothetically, say the offender was of previously good character, and was remorseful. A university student? Do these things make a difference?

he’d be up in front of the beak for GBH, shirley?
If he had any smarts, by the time he got there he would be booked into an AA class, and some other wiffly anger management bolleux to work his mitigation hard and get a suspended/community service sentence.

Unprovoked assault on the emergency services?

I thought they were highlighting this at the moment. Would assume a criminal record (IANALOP)

The paramedic is concussed; admitted to hospital and CT scanned. Nothing hugely serious is found, but he is probably going to need nasal septum surgery.

Nowt serious just in need of surgery?

Consumption of Alcohol and thus the argument “Im very sorry, I had too much to drink and was not aware/in control of my actions” should not be accepted as a mitigating factor for his conduct in front of the judge/cps, unfortunately it doesn’t work like that – our society should not accept such a defense.

Nowt serious just in need of surgery?

Fair point. Paramedic ‘serious’ and general public ‘serious’ mismatch there! When I say nowt serious, I mean not life threatening or in need of ongoing hospital in patient care, I suppose.

influence of alcohol…

several of the hypothetical witnesses are at pains to point out that the gentleman was not slurring and well coordinated throughout.

Unprovoked attack on member of emergency services resulting in hosp treatment for concussion, broken nose/septum? I’ll go for a court appearance and criminal conviction. Possibly a jail sentence.

The CPS guidelines quote previous cases of assaults on public servants.

R v McNally 2000 1 Cr. App. R (S) 533 – the appellant was attending a hospital with his son when he became involved in an argument with a doctor and assaulted him with one punch. He had no previous convictions and was charged with ABH. The Court of Appeal held that 6 months’ imprisonment was the appropriate sentence, and reiterated that such circumstances seriously aggravated the offence.

R v Eastwood [2002] 2 Cr. App. R. (S) 72 (at 318) – the appellant was drunk and in A&E when he assaulted a nurse during the course of an X-ray. The nurse suffered torn ligaments in her hand, and he was charged with ABH. The Court found that in such circumstances, the starting point after trial was between 21 – 24 months’ imprisonment with a sentence of 15 months’ imprisonment suitable after guilty plea.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_against_the_person/#a12

I’m not a lawyer though and every case is different.

When I say nowt serious, I mean not life threatening or in need of ongoing hospital in patient care, I suppose.

General definition for me is would I think it was serious if it happened to me?

Okay. So can anybody tell me about such things as ‘conditional cautions’. I’ve never heard of them before. But I’m fairly sure they don’t class as a conviction of any kind.

I am not a policeman or lawyer, and that’s why I would be waiting in the shadows with a baseball bat and a sense of self-righteous indignation.

Also your mate should probably be hypothetically on his way to see a real lawyer. Were they charged by the police?

Still awaiting a charging decision, with a strong indication that a ‘conditional caution’ will be the outcome. Apparently he’s ‘really sorry’.

Edit; hypothetically of course.

I’d say grab with both hands if offered. Appears it still shows on a criminal record check even though not a conviction but it is better than the alternative of being taken to court.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_against_the_person/#a12

But as suggested above speak to a real lawyer if this hasn’t been done already. Too big a decision for anyone without a record to take without proper legal advice.

Irc; who should grab it with both hands? My hypothetical mate is the injured party, for clarification. I have zero interest in going easy on the assailant.

The assaulted paramedic has little say in what the police/CPS decide.

Your post made it sound like it was coming from the side of the guy swinging the fists . You have no input and probably wait and see?

I would be very surprised if a conditional caution was offered. If it was my job I would be throwing everything at getting the offender a custodial sentence. If he is really sorry and has something to use as mitigation; then he can tell his little sob-story to the court.
There is very little tolerance in the police for attacks on medics.
IANCPS.

PC Wheeler

Your post made it sound like it was coming from the side of the guy swinging the fists . You have no input and probably wait and see?

Apologies. I’m trying to be a bit careful, so that may have tainted it a bit. FWIW, I’ve already had a fair bit of influence, albeit in a slightly nagging, cajoling sort of way. It was going to definitely be a ‘conditional caution’, and now it’s only maybe going to be one, apparently. Hypothetically. PC Wheeler, I wish you worked in the Police Service I’m dealing with. It’s fairly evident that you don’t! 😉

(Hypothetically)

I’m surprised it’s a police decision, not CPS?

Either way, an unprovoked attack, leaving a paramedic requiring facial surgery… Unless the offender is a child, he needs to be charged.

Ah – finally a thread where I can help! (Police Custody Sergeant, so I make these sort of disposal decisions every day). Please note that the procedures I describe may not be national practice – your local Force may have different names and procedures may vary (although it’ll be broadly similar).

CPS charging standards / level of injury table is over my right shoulder as I type – ‘displaced broken nose’ counts as Section 47 Offences Against the Person Act 1861 – ABH to you and I. Assaults are often downgraded – make sure you shout from the rooftops about the nature of injury, backed up with a medical statement – they should have obtained consent for access to medical records.

When determining disposal we have a crib sheet for every type of offence going (called the Police Visual Handbook). The first thing to do is to note that ABH is a CPS charging decision, which means that if the Police wish to charge the suspect to Magistrates Court, they have to obtain prior authorisation from the CPS. If the Police so wish, they can Caution (inc conditional) or NFA (no further action) in certain situations.

There is a whole ton of boring procedure (with which I won’t bore the general audience) when determining disposal options – the short version is that I’d be staggered if this case was offered a Caution / conditional Caution. A previous respondent alluded to the particular conditions for assaults against emergency services workers, which I will shamelessly copy-and-paste;

Whilst separate offences exist in respect of assaults on prison officers and immigration officers, there are no specific offences for other emergency workers and public servants, including those working in the NHS and those working for transport undertakings.

However, the Code for Crown Prosecutors states that such assaults should tend towards prosecution and the Sentencing Council’s Definitive Guidelines on Assault state that the fact that the victim comes from one of those groups should be treated as an aggravating factor.

Generally courts have given assailants in such cases custodial sentences:

6 months’ imprisonment for someone who had no previous convictions, who punched a doctor in a hospital,
15 months’ imprisonment for someone who pleaded guilty (21 to 24 months’ otherwise), who assaulted a nurse in A&E,
15 months’ imprisonment for someone who punched a member of an ambulance crew at an RTC.

If this case is as you describe (and the case is evidentially sound, with evidence in statement / CCTV form) then it should go to the CPS with the expectation of a Court Case. Find out who the Officer in Case is (call the Force and quote the crime number) and speak with them to find out what is going on – the sooner the better, as it is very hard to reverse a Caution decision after it has been issued. Make it VERY clear that you will not be satisfied with a Caution / Conditional Caution; if this is likely to be the disposal decision, tell them that you will challenge the decision and have it reviewed under the Victim’s Right to Review http://www.northyorkshire.police.uk/15262 – not my Force, but the best result that Google produced.

OP – feel free to email me (address in profile) if you need any more specific help that might not be appropriate for a public forum…

PS – your earlier question about a conditional caution is simple enough to explain; offender receives a Caution on the condition that he does something – apologises, writes a grovelling letter etc. Personally I’d not be happy with that as a disposal were I in your chum’s position.

What’s wrong with people? Whatever the outcome I just hope one of the bystanders got a good **** dig in whilst they dealt with him.

What’s wrong with people? Whatever the outcome I just hope one of the bystanders got a good **** dig in whilst they dealt with him.

Alcohol. That’s what’s wrong with people like this.

If we criminalised alcohol and decriminalised cannabis, we’d have far fewer folk punched in the face and far fewer people locked up. An increase in psychosis cases for the NHS, mind, and a welcome boost to sales of pickled onion monster munch…

Too much to drink and previously being of good character should be absolutely no defence with something like this. B*****ds.

In an incident with one of our crews a patient who was threatening and abusive to them received a 12 week custodial sentence so I’d expect that as a minimum.
Whichever NHS Trust he works for should have someone who deals with this kind of incident who can push for prosecution.

Section 20 assault downgraded on guilty plea to a section 47? Hope the paramedic is OK 🙁

The paramedic could also bring a private prosecution (unlikely in real life unless eg the union wanted to fund it) or bring a civil claim for battery (possibly a bit more realistic).

No, alcohol shouldn’t get the blame. The prick who thought it was ok to assault a paramedic should get the blame.
How many thousands of people drink but don’t turn into arseholes? Doesn’t matter what their previous is, they committed the assault and should be punished. You don’t let people off murder charges because it was out of character, or they might have had a pint or two.
Whoever it was and whatever their relationship to you, op, they are a tosser.

I know a young lad who attacked the ambulance crew that were called out to help him after a fall following some unusual behaviour..
Police also attended and were attacked too..

He received a righteous pasting in the back of the jam sandwich on the way to the custody suite, and then did 8 months in a psychiatric unit

Should be getting the jail for that. I would seriously doubt it’s the first time he’s been a drunken, agressive prick. Dressing it up as jolly student japes and previously of good character don’t mean a lot to me. A guy’s been badly injured doing his job.

This is no doubt going to be controversial, but I can’t see that you, or your friend gain anything other than satisfaction by the assailant ending up in prison? While a criminal record could have a seriously negative affect on the rest of his life. If he’s taken out of university, where he is hopefully learning to be a productive member of society and put into prison where the opposite is likely to be the case I can hardly see it helping much.

I totally agree that it was an incredibly scummy thing to do, but we don’t know his character. Undoubtedly he deserves a massive scare, but maybe the police/CPS have decided that he’s already had one and is genuinely remorseful and intending to get his life on track? Some people do some incredibly out of character things under the influence of alcohol, and young people are pretty stupid at times. Or maybe he is a total twunt with no hope of redemption, hard to tell without knowing him personally.

Tomd +1

What should happen next?

Transportation to Australia.

Should be getting the jail for that. I would seriously doubt it’s the first time he’s been a drunken, agressive prick. Dressing it up as jolly student japes and previously of good character don’t mean a lot to me. A guy’s been badly injured doing his job.

+1

Our emergency services deserve the full backing of the police and courts in situations like this. The level of assaults on paramedics and A&E staff is ridiculously high.

Undoubtedly he deserves a massive scare, but maybe the police/CPS have decided that he’s already had one and is genuinely remorseful and intending to get his life on track?

No, that’s not enough.

I’m usually a whiney liberal on such things but there’s too many ‘one punch’ fatalities and serious injuries for someone to be able to say;

“Look, he’s not dead and I’m, like, really sorry”

And get away with it.

What’s happened is that the assailant has realised the implications of their actions for their own life, not the impact on someone else’s.

Yes they’ll be on their knees pleading but as soon as it’s disposed with it ‘ll be “Phew! Got away with that one. Let’s go down the pub and celebrate!”.

He received a righteous pasting in the back of the jam sandwich on the way to the custody suite

^^^^ Excellent, just how it should be for the pr!ck in the OP’s post.
Then jail. No mail, no bail just straight to jail. W**kers like this should have the book thrown at them, f*** being a previous goody-two-shoes, poor bloody paramedic didn’t get much say in having a broken nose.

several of the hypothetical witnesses are at pains to point out that the gentleman was not slurring and well coordinated throughout.

While a criminal record could have a seriously negative affect on the rest of his life. If he’s taken out of university, where he is hopefully learning to be a productive member of society and put into prison where the opposite is likely to be the case I can hardly see it helping much.

That’s a much bigger question, possibly worthy of its own thread (“What’s the point of prison?”). As it stands, going to university doesn’t make you more moral in my view. Should we judicially reward people who are intellectually/financially able to go to uni rather than folk who go straight into regular jobs? If they’re helping out with the Samaritans while they’re at uni’, then that’s a different story. Doesn’t sound like it though!

Zero tolerance.

There is absolutely no excuse for that behaviour.

That’s a much bigger question, possibly worthy of its own thread (“What’s the point of prison?”). As it stands, going to university doesn’t make you more moral in my view. Should we judicially reward people who are intellectually/financially able to go to uni rather than folk who go straight into regular jobs? If they’re helping out with the Samaritans while they’re at uni’, then that’s a different story. Doesn’t sound like it though!

+1

Especially since 50% of school leavers are going to Uni, so it doesn’t really mean anything anymore.

I’m not sure it needs a custodial sentence, but at least a trip to the magistrates court and a properly marked ‘card’ – minimum should be a week picking up litter wearing a dayglo jacket.

If he was a friend of mine I wouldn’t have anything to do with him after doing that.

A total dickhead and should have the book thrown at him, at least a very hefty fine and proper compensation to the paramedic.

As it stands, going to university doesn’t make you more moral in my view. Should we judicially reward people who are intellectually/financially able to go to uni rather than folk who go straight into regular jobs?

No, absolutely not. The point I was more trying to make is that whatever they’re doing at 18/19/20, whether it’s university, technical college, apprenticeship or first job, many people at that age are still confused, insecure and easily influenced and trying to make their way in the world. A lot will make mistakes. Some are also no doubt already beyond help. I don’t think any of us can possibly know what the situation of this guy might be.

He received a righteous pasting in the back of the jam sandwich on the way to the custody suite, and then did 8 months in a psychiatric unit

Hooray for tough guys! Beating mentally ill people up makes things better! You can always rely on police officers’ judgement on who deserves a kicking!

Jail the ****

The **** who attacked me at a job got 13 months in jail.