Legal / consumer advice for construction faults – roof issue.

I’m looking for advice or to be directed at a reference within the building regulations that may help me in reclaiming costs from the house builder.

I have a 3.5 year old house; I recently noticed my roof is leaking into the loft where the roof meets the adjoining wall. I will obviously get quotes from multiple roofing companies however the first person who has looked it (seemed knowledgeable & professional) has identified two problems firstly the lead flashing is not dressed properly and the second issue is that roof felt against the adjoining wall has not been lapped up against the wall nor supported so therefore it is free to hang down and in driving rain the water is getting under the tiles into the roof. Both problems he feels are construction faults and will cost circa £500 to put right.

The house builder’s warranty has now expired (2 years) & the NHBC requires a minimum limit of £1200 for them to get involved.

I intend to pursue the house builder for full reimbursement as this is a construction fault rather than wear & tear and that in my opinion a 3.5 year old house should not leak but obviously it would be of huge help if I can get some legal advice / advice from anyone who has succeeded in doing similar or anyone in the construction industry who can provide a suitable reference in the building regulations that I can point to as being breached.

Was it not warranted by the Nhbc initially? Why has it expired? Someone surely warranted it for mortgage purposes beyond 2yrs?

Yes – the builders warranty covers the first 2 years and for the remaining 8 years the NHBC covers major construction faults; however there is a minimum claim limit of £1200 therefore NHBC won’t get involved unless the repair bill exceeds £1200.

Having viewed various forums for smaller value claims the NHBC warranty isn’t worth the paper its written on and has been feaatured on Watchdog etc in the past.

Make sure the roofer doesnt charge you a 25 quid callout fee, and its not a brand of house detailed here earlier this week.

Erm – without naming the brand are you able to point me at the thread? (I’m searching away but not finding it)

Have a look at this and tell me what arrangement you have. I would expect an abutment flashing / soaker or secret gutter arrangement

http://www.leadsheet.co.uk/autocad-online-flashings

It sounds more like a lead problem or detailing problem.

I wouldn’t bother, just get it fixed.

I can’t think of any section in the Building Regulations that covers this type of detailing. (Take a look at Approved Document C – Section 6).

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADC_2004_NEW.pdf

wurzelcube

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-bought-a-redrow-home

I wouldn’t bother, just get it fixed.

This. Probably way more trouble than it’s worth.

PJM84 – I’ve looked through the options, I think the closest match is “6F – Abutment Step/Flashing/Secret Gutter”

I’ve uploaded a little photo if helps identify what I have…

The CAD diagrams suggests there should be a secret gutter but bearing in mind I have zero knowledge of construction I’m not sure where this gutter is hidden. From the inside of the roof you can pull back the hanging down roof felt and see what looks like the underside of the lead flashing.

Here’s a better image showing the flashing / secret gutter arrangement. Note the roof felt / membrane is trapped under the edge batten
Link

From the inside of the roof you can pull back the hanging down roof felt and see what looks like the underside of the lead flashing.

Picture? What line is this? Can you see the edge of the roof tiles when you pull the felt away?

Is the leak localised / trackable (i.e staining in one spot) or general over this area. Does it coincide with the lead overlaps noting the little bit of a “pull away” on one of those flashings. Is it wall related and possibly attribute to the neighbour mortar verge above. Numerous possibilities.

Whose is the house builder?

There isn’t an edge batten trapping the felt against the wall but when I pull it back you can see the tiles (which don’t go right up to the wall) and the under side of the lead. Incidentally there is a noticable draft when I put my fingers up there so guess if the air can get it water can get in too.

Its leaking in various places – but from what I remember equally spread out so it could well tie in with the sections of flashing.

Just getting photos uploaded.

I’ve never had any trouble finding roofers who will quote more than double the going rate for a job. That would sort out your NHBC threshold.

I would just get it fixed, you will spend more money pursuing the builder for it, after the two year warranty has runout the builder won’t give a monkeys about your issue.

That is a standard detail for abutment. The felt would not be built into that wall as its an impossible task. There should really be a cavity tray following the line of the roof on the property to the left with a weep hole at the eaves, but with such a little upstand it’s hardly worth it. However if this is the secret gutter you refer to its only there to protect the inner walls. The lead you can see when folding back the felt is known as a soaker and one should be placed under every tile following the slope. The flashing down the wall then protects the joints of these soakers.
If all this is in place I can’t really see where the leak could be??
Now no offence meant but those roofs seem a bit of a cheap construction, I didn’t think anyone used old school felt anymore and I’d also expect to see that left hand flashing nicely stepped as apposed to a bloody great apron like that!!

Just looking back at the photo of the lead if that’s part of the folded apron as opposed to an individual soaker then that’s where the problem is. It’ll just be caused by driving rain. If there are no soakers in then that is in my mind a very poor detail and not one Nhbc would accept! The “bloody big apron” is somewhat making me think this is the case. If it is the case then I don’t see why you should have to spunk 1200 notes on something that should never have passed inspection!!

Agree with above poster re design of flashing. You are probably better pursuing this as a design fault rather than construction fault. NHBC have technical standards (similar to the regs) which ‘warrantied’ new build construction should comply with (in addition to the regs). These are available through NHBC or RICS/ RIBA bookshops if you want to check standard detail expectations. May even be worth checking relevant codes of practice for lead installations.

Anyhow your claim should be pursued through your insurer. Your information will no doubt be helpful in them building a case against the developer for any design negligence. You do have rights to an arbitration with NHBC but you would spend more time and money pursuing this individually.

Thank you for the replies so far it’s helping me to understand what is missing etc.

Re. just getting it fixed and not pursuing the building – I absolutely intend to pay myself in the first instance however I will have a damn good go at getting the money back from the builder as I don’t see why I should be £500+ out of pocket for something that should have been done properly in the first place.

No offence taken on the comment of its a cheap looking roof – I’m not surprised

I’m not too hot on terminology – but if the apron is the lead you see from the outside of the roof, there is no soaker nor anything else except felt below the tiles and definitely no lead tucked in underneath the tiles and it is therefore definitely the underside of the apron I can see when folding back the felt.

I will get additional quotes and the thought had crossed my mind that some may well exceed the NHBC threshold.

Some of my work involves carrying out warranty work for the NHBC as a sub contractor to a bigger firm. Roofing is not my line, but some of the claims that are accepted seem to be tenuous to say the least and some that aren’t accepted seem clear cut. i’m sure that those that make the most noise / nuisance of themselves get the most out of them.

I would pursue the NHBC route first. Which part of the uk are you in?

Get a couple of quotes and opinions on what’s wrong, but if you bought it new from a big house building firm then there’s no harm in calling them first. They may buck the trend and turn out to be helpful. If they give you the cold shoulder, I’d personally do as Koolaid said – contact your insurer and let them deal with it. If it’s a serious leak, contact the insurer straight away. If the house builder is not helpful then arguing this on your own to try and reclaim costs would be a nightmare as they will be well experienced in dealing with these types of claims. You said you had the CAD drawings – can you post? If it’s not built as the details then I’d be on the phone to them suggesting that the house builder has not completed the work as per the design and is liable regardless of when the defect was noticed. A failure to build the building correctly is a breach of somebody’s contract somewhere down the line, but let the insurance company argue that.

(Edit – or ring NHBC for their opinion on what we’re saying)

I’m in Gloucsestershire and currently completing an online enquiry form for NHBC as they aren’t open on Saturdays.

I am also going to be sending the builder an email containing the photos and information as I understand it currently to offer them the opportunity to put it right or re-imburse me if they are happy for me to use a builder of my choice (obviously this will be followed up with an email on Monday)

The initial CAD drawings were posted by PJM further up to help me identify the configuration I had.

I doubt there would have been drawings of the lead detail ever produced, it’s just standard practice when roofing. I know for a fact that 2010 was a very bad year for the Nhbc regarding roof claims and in particular lead work. They were last year a lot keener during inspection, even to the point of pulling us where stepped flashings hadnt been raked out ready to accept the lead. This basically meant no grinder to rake out the joints due to it being deemed possible to damage the cavity tray built into the wall.
I genuinely think this is a poor construction method and has been done to save time and money, and possibly because it’s “just a garage.”
Our inspector’s a nice bloke who’s also into biking, so I might be able to tap him up for some advice if you like.

If you are able to tap him for advice that would be great – sadly in my case it isn’t just a garage its my house roof but I did see that the HNBC warranty makes reference to the garage being treated differently.

Sorry mate for some reason I thought it was a garage. This now opens up a whole can of worms because no reputable builder uses a non breathable felt on housing any more, in fact the Nhbc will this year only allow you to use two types of breathable, one being a Klober and the other I can’t remember. As far as what their exact spec was 3 1/2 yrs ago i cant comment on but again my inspector may be able to give an insight. Is the ridge bedded or vented I can’t tell from the picture. You most certainly need to get onto the Nhbc because as far as I see, it’s their inspection that may have failed. May I ask who the developer was?? Oh and for wiw we’ve been using breathable for the last 15 yrs easy!!

The ridge tiles certainly don’t appear to be vented – to ask a stupid question how can I work out which one I have?

I’ll be happy to say which builder it is once they’ve had a chance to put things right – its one of the big players though.

If there’s mortar under them they’re not vented! Vented are basically a dry ridge system so they just get clipped on. So if it’s one of the big boys I may well be wrong regarding the breathable felt but it’s just so budget. I’ll give the inspector a cheeky call on Monday and hopefully tap him up for you.

As Wrightyson.

The photos show, assuming the second is the edge of tile, that there are no soakers or secret gutter. With the high winds and driving rain the detail has a weakness due to the flat roof tiles.

Photo 1 – Shows the batten abutting the wall. Therefore no space to install the secret gutter. (It takes up this batten zone depth)

Photo 2 – Shows the edge of tile (and no felt but I assume you’ve pulled this back). Therefore the lead is the apron flashing on top

As the roof has a flat concrete interlocking tile the lead arrangement is incorrect. If the roof had a profile or rolled tile you could use the this detail i.e detail 3F above. Clearly a bodge with a flat tile.

NHBC it. They will try and fob you off. Tell then what been mentioned and that you want the arrangement made good in accordance with their standards* and the guidlines of the Lead Sheet Association.

The cost, done correctly will be in excess of £1200 to put this right.

The ridge tile looks like a Marley dry vent ridge from the external photo. Note the joints between the two

http://www.marleyeternit.co.uk/Roofing/Concrete-Tiles/Modern-Interlocking-Tile.aspx

* I will look this information up for you and give you details

NHBC Standard 7 – Section 7.2.

I’ve checked both the 2011 and the 2011 (incorporating 2012 revision – coming into force 1st Jan 2012)

Interesting. The 2011 mentions soaker, the revision include for soaker and secret gutters and back of parapet gutters etc …..

Type 1F roofing felt, bitumen, can still be used but not overlapping into gutters. (It breaks down with UV at this point)

Mmm thought I might have been a bit over zealous with my slating (pardon the pun) of using bitcho roof felt, I genuinely didn’t think anyone still used it tho. Ive been viewing this on an iPhone so pics ain’t great. I for some reason assumed the tiles were staffies, but looking at the amount of courses it would make the roof bugger all in slope length. If they are concrete interlocking pan tiles then would just an apron flashing be ok if it was laid from left to right? You seem to know your stuff pjm, you in the trade?

Sadly just looking up soakers. Haven’t used, detailed or seen them in the last 20+years so couldn’t figure out how they would work with concrete interlocking. There are more for a slated roof.

Yep 26 years as a Architectural Technician but prior to that an construction background – still only 44yrs old though . I can design / detail and draw but also build. Quite rare. I get tainted as an Architect and happy to point out otherwise. (Working on site you will know why!)

I do the commercial, MOD, education type projects so a little rusty on the domestic side, house codes etc.

Glad to see breather membrane being used. I’ve seen all sorts including tauplin!

Apron flashing would be okay at the head of the roof slope. There is an overlap requirement which is linked to the roof pitch. The combination of the two minimises the possiblity of water back tracking, hence the overlap increases on a lower roof pitch. Phew!

Wrightyson, PJM84,

Thanks for the information. I’ve had a resposne from the MD of the building company and they will be sending one of their seniors out to investigate (The cynical part of me suspects that the roof will be fine from their perspective but I may well be suprised).

So in summary (and I appreciate its hard to 100% accurate without actually seeing the roof) what needs to be done to correct the configuration? Is it a combination of modifying the roof to accept a secret gutter and installing the flashing in a different configuration or something else?

Thanks again!

Also the house was built in 2008 do the NHBC standards change on a yearly basis?

Lets us know how you get on.

NHBC standards do change but the principle of the construction would still apply. The detail has been around for as long as I can remember

In a nutshell yes. Its a process of lifting / rolling back the existing lead flashing, although I would remove and reinstall it because it’s quite large. Remove the edge tiles / abutting ridge tile cut back the battens / install a secret gutter / replace the tiles / reinstall the apron flashing. Note both sides of the roof will need to be done.

I would also suggest to them about making good the felt during the process and turning it up the wall face. This could be done but a little tricky. Proprietary tape or an additional cut section, run from ridge to eaves, of breather membrane. This would require the battens to be de-nailed and lifted on the truss by the wall to allow the membrane to be slid under. I would be looking for a generous overlap with the existing felt. Ideally 300mm

PJM84 – great thanks. Noted on the other side of the roof, I’ve already had a quick inspection of it and can’t move the felt on that side and there was no sign of it leaking but I like you I suspect it hasn’t been constructed correctly.

I will ensure the other side is inspected and quote accordingly – as I think you or Wrightson previous stated it shouldn’t be hard to get the work above £1200 if the builder won’t fund the corrective work.

I will also check the ceilings of every room where the water has been dripping onto to ensure the paint / finish has not been damaged.

Good luck and don’t take any fobbing off!! Pisses me right off when you see the one man band idiots on rogue traders etc but when it’s the big boys fooking up, us normal builders dont stand a chance!

Thanks I will let you know how I get on. I know what you mean about rougue traders, in the case of my roof it could well be the fault of just one employee (although should have been picked up on inspection) but I’m more than willing to give the builder the chance to inspect and hopefully agree to make good.

looks on face value as a bodge.

the lead flashings have been installed but no soakers to make sure that any rain driving between the flashings and the tiles does not penetrate.

any detail should not rely on the felt to keep put the water.

needs redoing with flashings and soakers – lead is expensive.

Hello again wurzel, right I finally got round to speaking to my Nhbc inspector and it would appear old school felt is still perfectly acceptable so longs as there’s plenty of ventilation. In the case of your roof, eaves vents should (gutter line) be placed on both slopes. As regards the soaker detail it reAlly will come back to manufacturers recommended method of installation of your type of tiles. To be fair however he was very surprised that anyone was still using old school felt. One. Other thing he did mention was the “diminishing” level of cover the warranty offers. Hope you get sorted.

Thanks for following up – I have a case open on NHBC and have supplied photos.

The builder has also been out to inspect, taken photos and has gone away to investigate what I have against their design so I am waiting to hear.

Result… thanks for the good advice / input I’ve been given. The builder has accepted financial responsibility for implementing the corrective action.

In fairness to the builder I can only applaud their honesty and approach to put this right.