The Panama Papers.

I mean that he’s not accountable, not only for his fathers financial arrangements, but for anything else his parents did.
Woody Harrelsons father was reportedly a hitman, not really woodies fault.

Camerons snrs’ actions are in the public interest but you can’t blame CMD for it.

why do so many people have such an obvious aversion to paying tax

I suppose that some (I don’t know as I pay my dues) at least think they have a choice; leave their money to their kids or give it to the government. Others are just greedy f***ers.

Camerons snrs’ actions are in the public interest but you can’t blame CMD for it.

That being the case, is it reasonable to blame him for not being more open about it?

How many spin doctors have been involved in what has been revealed so far?

That being the case, is it reasonable to blame him for not being more open about it?

Dunno. maybe, maybe not. In the realm of the non-political voter (such as myself), I don’t care about it now and I wouldn’t have cared about it if he’d somehow slipped it into conversation on PMQs or whatever. I wouldn’t have cared if it was Corbyn or the others either. To me, it’s a non story but I appreciate that it’s an opportunity for those who don’t like the tories to score points.

Blame is interesting word…I’m not blaming him for anything.

However, it’s hardly democratic when money gets you into positions of power…so Cameron snr accumulated lots of wealth unethically, that undoubtedly contributed towards making Cameron jnr Prime Minister…and then, as an MP Cameron jnr would have been in a powerful position to influence policy that may well have benifitted Cameron snr’s unethical wealth aaccumulation..all very mucky imo…

I don’t care about it now and I wouldn’t have cared about it if he’d somehow slipped it into conversation on PMQs or whatever.

Let’s assume for a moment that like many other offshore investors, the Cameron family fortune was based on Criminal ventures, be that Arms deals, Drugs deals or Human Trafficking.

Of course, it may be that for the most part, the Cameron Empire kept their hands clean (aside from the odd arms deal by Dave when he was rising through the ranks, or a bit of networking by his brother Alexander), yet their funds were being used for such activity…

All hypothetical of course (unless the Carroll Trust allegations in my post above prove true), but would it change your opinion?

As I said @mefty we can agree to disagree

I would love to, but you are all over the place a bit like our very own poundland Donald Trump. You post an article bemoaning Barry O’Bama’s, Irish problem again, lack of action which supports my contention that it is predominately the US that have been deprived of tax revenue. Of course ignoring, Washington has been in gridlock on this along with many other issues for ages because no party has complete power.

How ‘ethical’ are the investments made by Blairmore going to be, a corporate that clearly has no valid moral compass?
Arms? Drugs? Corrupt regimes? Mining? Asset stripping from weak national economies..?
Remember, Cameron still ‘controls’ this entity, regardless of whatever its accounts might indicate. It uses placed men to help pretend that control & management are not located in the UK.

All hypothetical of course (unless the Carroll Trust allegations in my post above prove true), but would it change your opinion?

My opinion is that I don’t really care! Hardly an entrenched position!
If I’m completely honest, as someone who is not well read in economics, I don’t really understand the accusations aimed at the camerons/blairmore/carroll etc.

Corrr blimey..

Some of you are better at investigative reporting than investigative reporters..

Thought about a change of career?

Greed. Pure and simple. Greed and a sense of entitlement.

Or a belief that the ‘government’ won’t spend it wisely and that corruption abounds, which continues to be proved especially considering the present unsurprising revelations.

Oh brilliant!

Are we all allowed to suspend our tax payments until we resolve that one then? Maybe we can pop by one afternoon and audit random government departments? Failing that, has tax become an opt out for all of us then? Or just the rich and corporates? 🙄

It’d be ironic, wouldn’t it? The head of the government using a lack of faith in that government to justify tax avoidance?

Or a belief that the ‘government’ won’t spend it wisely and that corruption abounds

😆 😆 😆

Comments like that prove that Some people live on planet nutbrain.

Or a belief that the ‘government’ won’t spend it wisely and that corruption abounds

bravo!

Can someone explain where the illegality/immorality lies with Blairmore? Which tax has been avoided?

Presumably the funds into the vehicle were post tax, then capital gains accrue in the vehicle and don’t get much if any tax. However, the beneficiaries would get taxed if they crystallised any gains back into the UK (as long as declared).

What am I missing?

It’s an investment vehicle, based in a nil tax zone. It trades in investments, makes profits and also gains, which are not taxed. Cameron claims to have no shares in it, so he has nothing to declare now or if it is wound up. But where does the value contained therein go? This company is a significant part of the family’s wealth. What does he own, which owns something else/5 times removed that owns Blairmore..?
This is, after all, exactly the business model of the Panamanian/BVI etc avoidance specialists, to disconnect the UK resident natural person from the profits and proceeds. He has other wealth and need not draw on this source at present, keeping the whole thing at distant arms’ length.
Look very carefully at the words used in the Downing street statements and think about what has not been said. And yes, some people do investigate things for a living.

That doesn’t answer my question though – assuming Cameron was a beneficiary, how would he benefit from the capital gains in the vehicle without paying some tax (making the reasonable assumption he declared all income in his tax return).

Or a belief that the ‘government’ won’t spend it wisely and that corruption abounds, which continues to be proved especially considering the present unsurprising revelations.

So, you act corruptly because you’re trying to end corruption 🙂

That’s the point, especially if you don’t need to realise it here and now. If you can afford to, you can sit tight with your current income, future consultancies and directorships; Cameron as an example is completely sorted for the rest of his days, before considering the family investments. Anyway, if you wanted to realise it as a cash asset, you simply use the capital value of the vehicle to borrow elsewhere; receiving a ‘loan’ is not income.. UK trust law is some of the most porous in the world.

Or a belief that the ‘government’ won’t spend it wisely and that corruption abounds, which continues to be proved especially considering the present unsurprising revelations.

With that fantastic logic you may as well drop litter, as someone else will be. Or steal from old ladies, as someone else has….

That makes sense re using it as loan collateral thanks.

Edit: but would that be legal? Plus you’d need to repay the loan, or would you just default and the lender takes the vehicle? Seems to lack substance but I’m not au fait with tax law in that area.

Going back to my original question, assuming everything is done legally (I.e avoidance not evasion) where is the lost tax to the UK exchequer? Is it the CG that would otherwise have been taxed? Isn’t it just being deferred rather than avoided because it will have to be suffered on eventual remittance?

I wish the Guardian et al would actually explain this rather than printing click bait about whic famous people have some tenuous overseas investment.

Can someone explain where the illegality/immorality lies with Blairmore? Which tax has been avoided?

It depends on exactly when, but basically it pretended to be an overseas controlled company such that it wasn’t subject to UK taxes. However, as it was controlled by UK citizens in the UK (by proxy using ‘fake’ local directors who just sign off everything), it should have been subject to UK tax laws.

They’ve been clamping down on this a lot over the years, getting stricter and stricter, so exactly how illegal it was and when would require some digging (which is happening now).

Probably also why they moved it to Ireland at some point (I guess it was considered too illegal to continue the risk of being caught).

Personally if I was Cameroon, I’d walk and take the money (if he has as much as everyone accuses) with me. Wether he’s a goody or a bady why put up with this s..t from people. It’ll be the same for Corbean when he makes it in, like the leader of any party, crap will be published true or not because some people hate you for what you represent. Why would anyone be a politician these days.

I starting to feel sorry for some of these MP and that cannot be right!

Personally if I was Cameroon, I’d walk and take the money (if he has as much as everyone accuses)

He’s isn’t in it for the money is he? He’s been sorted for life in that respect. He’s doing it coz he wants to, whether he’s a power crazed loon or he genuinely want to help people (stop laughing at the back), he’ll no doubt hang around as PM for as long as he realistically can.

I just love the unfortunate/ironic choice of name – BLAIRmore – so many jokes just in that

I think CMD has got into the classic politicians pickle of not being straight from the start. yesterday’s statement as noted ^ merely adds to the suspicions. they never learn do they?

they never learn do they?

He was so infuriated that the plebs dared to question his integrity, he couldn’t find the words…

Binners raises the issue of paying tax being only a choice for the rich and corporates, the reality is if you are a small corporate and can afford £2k to spend with a good accountant just about anyone can avoid significant tax both personal and corporation and as i have said before plenty folks on here will be doing £8k salary and dividends and using the other half’s “allowance” and then justifying it by saying “well i am taking the risk” in reality the overall tax take in this country is very low as we are all now running £10k + tax free allowances (not that long ago you £3k) Dividends, Corporate Tax avoidance (at all levels) and a whole raft of other ways of simply not paying/offsetting (work in Progress anyone?)tax (or NI for that matter) – those in glass houses…oops forgot to add Directors loans

i have said before plenty folks on here will be doing £8k salary and dividends and using the other half’s “allowance” and then justifying it by saying “well i am taking the risk”

Again, they have clamped down a lot on ‘fake’ contractors aka the IR35 issue.

If can genuinely set up as a Ltd company, then you’re doing nothing illegal, so it’s not tax avoidance.

You could also complain about pension tax relief, I’ve avoided the 40% bracket by paying everything over 40% into my pension for the last 3 years. Although it will be subject to tax when I draw down in 20+ years….

plenty folks on here will be doing £8k salary and dividends and using the other half’s “allowance”

im sure the majority dont though

It is tax avoidance, why do you think people do it ?

If there was a random sample of UK Ltd companies and a random sample of offshore shell companies, which do you think would have more links to the criminal underworld of Arms trafficking?

i agree the majority wont but there are a lot of businesses out there (legal and law, any form of LLP etc.) that run this way, IR35 etc. has cracked down on the one person LTDs i am just making the point that plenty of people do this sort of thing who are not multi millionaires – forgot to mention entrepreneurs allowance for the sale of a business – there’s loads of legal ways around paying tax.

Personally if I was Cameroon, I’d walk and take the money (if he has as much as everyone accuses) with me. Wether he’s a goody or a bady why put up with this s..t from people. It’ll be the same for Corbean when he makes it in, like the leader of any party, crap will be published true or not because some people hate you for what you represent. Why would anyone be a politician these days.

I starting to feel sorry for some of these MP and that cannot be right!

The specifics of this case are rather more nuanced…

1. The UK is financially in a very very poor place: look at the national debt and the current account deficit, and then also look at the costs of looking after and ageing and unhealthy nation (obesity)
2. The UK government provides services for the electorate in return for taxes
3.These taxes are particularly needed right now as a) we’re skint, b) we have more need of them than ever before (so it’s a very bad time to be skint)
4. A large amount of this desperately needed tax is being deliberately avoided by people. They know what their legal obligations are, they know people worse off than them desperately need it, but they avoid it…
5. Our Prime Minister says he understands all this and he is going to do something about it. Sound like progress to me….
6.And then we find out his own father was playing these games. The liklihood of our PM not gaining from these games is highly unlikely
7. This looks like a major conflict of interest. The very very big problem looks unlikely to be resolved… NHS carries on struggling, pensions continue to get cut etc etc etc
8. The obvious way for this conflict of interest is for someone else to be in charge of solving this particular problem

There’s more to this than attacking a politician because we don’t like him….

It is tax avoidance, why do you think people do it ?

Sometimes going Ltd is the only way to get the work. I don’t know to be fair what extent of contractors are doing it for this reason but going PAYE on a fixed term contract isn’t always an option…

PAYE also means you’re stuck with one client at a time, Ltd allows you to work for one client 4 days a week, say, and another client on the 5th (or 6th and 7th if you want)

There’s more to this than attacking a politician because we don’t like him….

Sums it up for me

Broess is right we have a tax avoidance culture

Can someone explain where the illegality/immorality lies with Blairmore? Which tax has been avoided?

Well the whole point of t doing it all was to avoid tax

Do yu really think they were unsuccessful in the aim?

assuming everything is done legally (I.e avoidance not evasion) where is the lost tax to the UK exchequer?

INheritance tax seems to be one area as the “assets” are held by opaque companies – its independent on paper- but in reality you gave it to your kids

.And then we find out his own father was playing these games

It was never a secret that his father ran a tax avoidance company offshore. Perhaps it was not widely know that is how they made the money but it was not a secret.

Expecting Dave to sort this out is like thinking Mike ashley is the man to sort out zero hours contracts ad workers conditions at the hands of exploitative owners

Grnated Dave will do a much better PR job of his task.

The obvious way for this conflict of interest is for someone else to be in charge of solving this particular problem

But everyone has a conflict of interest as we all either benefit from receiving or minimizing taxes. Even lefties like Tony Benn set out to minimise their tax. The state needs to do a better carrot and stick job.

The UK is financially in a very very poor place: look at the national debt

Who is the national debt owed to?

What are the bets a significant percentage of the national debt is owed to offshore interests, or at least those involved in offshore finance?

4. A large amount of this desperately needed tax is being deliberately avoided by people. They know what their legal obligations are, they know people worse off than them desperately need it, but they avoid it…

I’m sure they do know their legal obligations, and avoiding tax is legal by definition.

Unless you mean evasion, which is entirely different.

I’m sure they do know their legal obligations, and avoiding tax is legal by definition.

Unless you mean evasion, which is entirely different.

No, it’s not entirely different: avoidance and evasion can both land you with a tax bill and a fine.