Jeremy Corbyn

Has the booting out of JC had a positive effect already?

FFS look at the dates on when the poll was taken

Good point, did not look at that.

If Labour want a road-map to success they have to at least look at the last time they Won anything, which means bringing up ‘New Labour’,

The problem is the left has never forgiven Tony Blair for winning an election.

And in what way does that qualify him to be leader of a political party?

Your words were ‘he’s hopelessly unsuited to being in a Party which is supposed to champion the underprivaledged.’. If you want to question his leadership credentials then fine, but you were questioning whether he should be in the party at all.

Actually maybe he shouldn’t. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from this whole thing it’s that the labour party is a defunct and self-serving organisation which is more interested in grubby political games and mudslinging than helping the poor or fighting for the interests of working people. It’s simply not fit for purpose, and needs to be put out of its misery.

Aside from there is repeated evidence of procedures being improved whilst he was in office.
Again many of the “political intervention” examples were his office actually forcing more aggressive action against antisemites.

but it wasn’t enough its that simple. Fact is he was in charge when all this happened so its his fault.

The problem is the left has never forgiven Tony Blair for winning an election.

FFS man stop with the trolling.

As far as the public at large are concerned, where there’s smoke there’s fire. Starmer is just stampimg down on the embers. He knows that he has to divest the Labour party entirely of it’s Marxist and anti semitic elements if it’s ever going to stand a chance of getting back into Government.

Agree that the Labour Party could do with an Alistair Campbell type figure to control the messaging but not sure if he’s needed just yet. There’s a purge going on at the moment so simple headlines like RLB gone, Corbyn suspended etc read well in the press. The actions speak for themselves so don’t need over explaining.

It’s all a bit groundhog day though isn’t it. Its Militant Tendency all over again. The harping of the Corybynistas is probably helping Starmer to be honest, doing his comms for him. The more they decry Starmer and separate themselves from the mainstream of the Labour Party the better it is for Starmer, it leaves no skeletons in the cupboard when it comes time to fight the next election.

I’m guessing that most of the Corbyn supporters on here will still vote Labour at the next election. Labour knows there are more votes to be gained in the middle ground than there are to be lost to the far left.

Don’t think of politics as a horizontal line, with the Far Left on the left hand side the line and the Far Right on the far right hand side of the line, think of it as a circle, like a clock face with the far left at 11 o’clock and the far right at 1 o’clock. The last two elections have seen the hands of the clock tick past midnight, with traditional, dyed in the wool Labour voters going right wing.

Labour needs to reset the clock to 6 o’clock and fight the battle there.

The problem is the left has never forgiven Tony Blair for winning an election.

Are there other topics where you are arrogant enough to unequivocally claim knowledge of what an entire group of people is thinking?

Are there other topics where you are arrogant enough to unequivocally claim knowledge of what an entire group of people is thinking?

Yes, loads…

It’s simply not fit for purpose, and needs to be put out of its misery.

They call it a ‘broad church’ but in reality it’s a directionless rabble of people who all have their ‘vision’ of what the party should be. It only takes a small push from the tories in any one of several topics to kick off the in-fighting.

They call it a ‘broad church’ but in reality it’s a directionless rabble of people who all have their ‘vision’ of what the party should be. It only takes a small push from the tories in any one of several topics to kick off the in-fighting.

One thing the Tories have got sussed is that come election time they will compromise on their differences to get elected and then go back to arguing once they’re back in power.

A lesson Labour don’t seem to be interested in.

It’s all a bit groundhog day though isn’t it. Its Militant Tendency all over again. The harping of the Corybynistas is probably helping Starmer to be honest, doing his comms for him. The more they decry Starmer and separate themselves from the mainstream of the Labour Party the better it is for Starmer, it leaves no skeletons in the cupboard when it comes time to fight the next election.

Didn’t work out that well for Neil Kinnock, he purged the fruit loops but still lost. However, Starmer does come across much better…..

I’m guessing that most of the Corbyn supporters on here will still vote Labour at the next election.

Yep, I will. I like Corbyn for his principles, typically being on the right side of things etc,.
He was however shite at being a leader and he was disliked by a lot of the voters whose vote he needed yet I still voted Labour when he was leader as even with him as leader a Labour government would have been a much better thing to have had than what we have now.
I am actually more of a Green party person but that vote is even more a waste of a vote than Labour in my super tory constituency.

I’m guessing that most of the Corbyn supporters on here will still vote Labour at the next election

Or they could get disillusioned and give up voting? But hey who gives a **** about them.
Lets return to the good old days where we had a centrist party chasing the tories ever further to the right. Just think looking by the good start we could end up with US style politics in 20 years or so.

I’m guessing that most of the Corbyn supporters on here will still vote Labour at the next election.

Probably not. It’ll be green or not at all. There’s no point voting for an organisation which won’t change anything.

Or they could get disillusioned and give up voting? But hey who gives a **** about them.

Corbyn certainly doesn’t, happy to drag Labour through the mud till his dying breath.

One thing the Tories have got sussed is that come election time they will compromise on their differences to get elected and then go back to arguing once they’re back in power.

A lesson Labour don’t seem to be interested in.

It’s much more difficult for them due to the bottom-up structure of the party. Everyone at conference thinks it’s their chance to shape the party.
I don’t really know the solution. The tories simply don’t have that problem.

Why, after 12 years Labour still haven’t managed to shake the feeling in the general public that the 2008 crash was their fault, I really can’t tell you. Keir doesn’t seem to be managing any better than his predecessors in that regard.

Well he may or may not be antisemitic but when I saw this picture of him I just wanted to give him a slap and tell him to wear his effing mask properly

Probably not. It’ll be green or not at all. There’s no point voting for an organisation which won’t change anything.

Sometimes changing nothing (clearly they wouldn’t change nothing) is better than a tory party actively changing things for the worse but you carry on helping the tory party.

Why, after 12 years Labour still haven’t managed to shake the feeling in the general public that the 2008 crash was their fault, I really can’t tell you.

It’s because labour failed to propose anything different. If we’re going to have a neo-liberal small-state deregulated economy, the tories are the natural choice to manage it because they believe in it. Labour want to have their cake and eat it. They criticise the obvious ill effects of neo-liberalism, but then don’t propose to change it in any material way. This gives the tories all the ammunition they need to paint labour as unfit to manage the economy. Even under Corbyn and McDonnell they did’t really tackle the issue, instead they fell back on outdated Keynesianism rather than pursue more modern and relevant solutions.

For every dazh vote that Labour loses they’ll pick up a few more from the centrists that voted Conservative, Lib Dems or those that didn’t vote at all last two times.

It did work for Kinnock up until the point he blew it by celebrating victory at the US style celebratory rally just before the votes were cast. He did however manage to purge the party of extremist elements which gave the party a stable platform on which to build.

For every dazh vote that Labour loses they’ll pick up a few more from the centrists that voted Conservative, Lib Dems or those that didn’t vote at all last two times.

The evidence for this is?
If we look at the new labour results they did nicely initially as they kept the traditional voters and added some new ones but then over the next couple of elections they lost massively amongst the core voters.
“Centrists” are a minority. if they werent the Libdems would be a more significant power.

Its fascinating the love of purges the centrists display. After years of announcing it should be a broad church the determination to purge anyone who disagrees with them is a tad hypocritical

but you carry on helping the tory party

Ha! The tory party does require any help from me when the so-called opposition do their job for them.

For every dazh vote that Labour loses they’ll pick up a few more from the centrists that voted Conservative, Lib Dems or those that didn’t vote at all last two times.

Probably true, and nothing will change as a result. I can confidently predict in 10 years time we’ll all be on here arguing about exactly the same things, except we’ll all be poorer, the rich will be richer, and the people at the bottom will be even more f***** than they are now.

Even under Corbyn and McDonnell they did’t really tackle the issue, instead they fell back on outdated Keynesianism rather than pursue more modern and relevant solutions.

I remember reading some pretty good ideas early on that were encouraging, but they never got any attention in the press. Credit Unions, worker-owned co-operatives, a group of advising economists, etc. Renationalising did get some traction and seemed to be popular, but was too easily dismissed with all the magic money-tree talk.

It’s because labour failed to propose anything different.

There are two things you have to get right to be elected, policies and credibility.

You can all the right polcies, but come across an incompetent and no one will vote for you.

With Starmer they at least have a credible leader.

The sooner JC shuts up and vanishes the quicker Labour can start to put its house in order and sort out a platform for the next GE.

I remember reading some pretty good ideas early on that were encouraging, but they never got any attention in the press. Credit Unions, worker-owned co-operatives, a group of advising economists, etc. Renationalising did get some traction and seemed to be popular, but was too easily dismissed with all the magic money-tree talk.

Yep, right polices, wrong person pushing them.

That’s just how it is, if you come across an incompetent, no one cares what you say, they just won’t trust you.

He went and did his weekly shift at the local foodbank.

One could see that as part of his path to secularsainthood

Or seeing that he is essentially in charge of his own time whilst getting £80k+ p.a. plus expenses plus funding for an office etc etc it’s relatively easy to fit that in your diary especially as it’s it’s easy voter canvasing

I remember reading some pretty good ideas early on that were encouraging

Some were, but they were still frilling round the edges. 20th century tax-and-spend Keynesianism was still the preferred solution when instead they should have been looking at root and branch reform involving PR, MMT and UBI all being used to deliver a central policy goal of the green new deal. They got the green new deal bit right, but missed the opportunity on the rest. Starmer is going to get it even more wrong. He’s allowed the party to turn inwards again and is offering nothing on any of these subjects. It’s political cowardice, plain and simple.

Some intersting points here from Richard Murphy on the state of labour – https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/10/30/labour-is-life-expired-its-sole-remaining-core-purpose-should-be-to-build-the-new-political-settlement-that-the-country-it-seeks-to-represent-needs/

dissonance,

The evidence for this is 3 consecutive election victories.

YMMV.

The evidence for this is 3 consecutive election victories.

And remind me what happen to the vote share in each? As I pointed out. Its a trick which worked for a time but will work it work again? I doubt it.
The difference between Blair and the “moderates” now is Blair had the political skill to realise it was a deadend. Thats why he walked away and left the mess to everyone else.
So good luck doing it again especially when the rabid “moderates” have made it absolutely clear they want to purge the nonbelievers.

For every dazh vote that Labour loses they’ll pick up a few more from the centrists that voted Conservative, Lib Dems or those that didn’t vote at all last two times.

The evidence for this is?

Well, New Labour – for all it’s faults – suggests there might be something in it.

I think all this just shows that we never really did want someone with principles that they stick to in charge. He has admitted some failings but also thinks a lot of the criticism is unfair, so that’s what he said. If was a ‘better politician’ he would have just apologised and shut up like many are demanding.

The fact is we live in a right wing country (England anyway) and Starmer’s unimpressive poll numbers in the face of probably the most incompetent government of all time shows all the claims that JC was the problem were well wide of the mark.

The evidence for this is 3 consecutive election victories.

The last 3 elections were all about brexit. You think centrists wanted brexit? In one of those elections Corbyn won a higher number of votes and higher vote share than Blair, before the tories and labour right wing deployed the nuclear bomb of anti-semitism to defeat him. Applying late 20th century centrist electoral theory to recent elections is ridiculous.

Read the report or don’t talk about it.

Corbyn has apologised for AS numerous times.

The report really wasn’t that damning Corbz could have just said so and put the thing to bed.

Labour need to show credibility with economy. Corbz wasn’t that.

British politics is ****. Political system needs re-drawing. Tories and Labour happy as it is so it won’t happen. IMO Labour should be brave and campaign for a new system.

Or they could get disillusioned and give up voting? But hey who gives a **** about them.
Lets return to the good old days where we had a centrist party chasing the tories ever further to the right. Just think looking by the good start we could end up with US style politics in 20 years or so.

The usual moans of those interested in Politics in the 90s was that you couldn’t really pick between the two parties who’d moved closer to the centre as it represented where the UK was at the time. They both battled to get the vote of “Mondeo Man”.

John Major’s centrist principles, policies and background made right of Centre Tories wonder if perhaps he’d gotten lost on the way to joining the Labour party early in his career. He spent his time as Leader fighting the exact kind of people who steer the Tories now. It was Sleaze and the shadow of Thatcher that lost the election for him in ’97.

It was the Credit Crunch that lost the election for Brown in 2010, not the Iraq War, no Government, whatever the colour or their actual performance would survive that (the only hope Johnson, or whoever is PM is will survive Covid / Covid recession will be them having both fixed by the time of the next election).

In 2010 David Cameron won, not because of any great policies or Statesman qualities, but because Brown, handicapped slightly by Blair’s refusal to hand-over when he promised was in charge when the US sub-prime scam dragged the whole Western World into the worst Financial Crisis since the 30s.

He faced the same problem John Major faced, UKIP was an issue, but mostly it was the right-wing, eurosceptics in his own party, and maybe more importantly withing it membership threatening to split the party over the EU. We all know what happened, and why and that, and that alone is why the Tories have lurched to the right, they didn’t even have a Tori-Right leader until last year (okay Boris is a shape-shifter, but he’s their Man) towards the end of Corbyn’s leadership.

Being absolutely frank, Corbyn’s problem was that either he was too fond of his on ideology or too indebted to those who put in charge and unable to actually represent Labour voters. He couldn’t be pro EU without losing the protectionists in the Unions, but he couldn’t be anti-Eu without losing Voters in London. In the end, he lost because he managed to do the unthinkable, he made life-long, dyed in the wool working class Labour voters, vote Tory.

The last 3 elections were all about brexit. You think centrists wanted brexit? In one of those elections Corbyn won a higher number of votes and higher vote share than Blair, before the tories and labour right wing deployed the nuclear bomb of anti-semitism to defeat him. Applying late 20th century centrist electoral theory to recent elections is ridiculous.

That’s a bit meaningless though isn’t it?

So TB got 9.6m votes and JC 10.2m, 27m votes were made in 2005, and 32m in 2019 because the the UK population had grown from 60m to 66m between 2005 and 2019, at the same time as Voter Turnout rose from 61% to 67%.

This isn’t Trump v Clinton thing when one candidate had more votes, just in the wrong place when they can claim some kind of ‘technical victory’. It’s a meaningless footnote, don’t make the mistake of thinking you can just do the same thing harder and it’ll work next time.

In the end, he lost because he managed to do the unthinkable, he made life-long, dyed in the wool working class Labour voters, vote Tory.

No.
Northern racists backed Get Brexit Done.

Didn’t work out that well for Neil Kinnock, he purged the fruit loops but still lost. However, Starmer does come across much better…..

I still maintain a loathing for Derek Hatton and his ilk who brought the party into disrepute with their antics. Hatton subsequently reinvented himself as a capitalist (complete with £60k Range Rover) and is mates with Andy Wigmore of Brexit fame. Hatton’s brand of Sixth Form common room politics did lasting damage, I hope that he steps on an upturned plug.

Although I consider myself on the left of the political spectrum, we have to get elected before we can bring much needed change. I renewed my party membership when Starmer got the gig.

One of the reasons that Labour got elected in the last 1990’s was that Kinnock, Smith, Blair and Brown recognised that you had to be electable. That meant having policies that appealed to a majority of the population, not just those on the left. It meant showing that you could lead by making tough decisions (e.g. Clause IV).

You can’t change the country by being in opposition, you have to be in Government. And that means working out which policies are acceptable to your party and the country.

Simply sticking to a single left-wing agenda failed to accept that the country would not elect that party. A failure to make tough decisions (e.g. to deal with “anti-Semitic” issue in Labour) showed that the leader of the party would never be acceptable as a PM. Leaders need to lead, Corbyn failed in that respect. He also failed to work out that to implement some “left” policies he needed to be in Government.

He now wants to stuff the current Labour leadership in spending time and effort in managing the situation to which he created by claiming he is the victim. If he really believes in a left wing Government then he needs to support what is left of Labour and retreat from public life and stop making stupid statements. At least Foot had the ability to recognise that leaving the public spotlight was the best thing that he could do was to quietly go into the background.

And while I’m here, we rightly stand up and blame Blair for being partially/fully responsible for the mess in Iraq. But before that the changes that him and his Government made, improved the life for many people in Britain. I don’t want Blair 2, but I do want a Labour Government with realistic and achievable policies to replace the idiotic and shambolic fools currently in place. Corbyn gives the impression that his sainthood is far more important than that. Go away JC and retire to your allotment, your time has gone.

The usual moans of those interested in Politics in the 90s was that you couldn’t really pick between the two parties who’d moved closer to the centre as it represented where the UK was at the time

No they moved to target swing voters not “the centre”. Both sides took their traditional voters for granted. The tories have been going further and further right since Thatchers time. The only reason it isnt so obvious was for most of it Labour were chasing them rightwards and it then got accepted that even centre left positions were considered hard left whereas positions which Thatcher thought were too hard right were pushed through as centrist.
Our political spectrum is skewed to an extent which is only beaten by the US. What are seen as moderate left policies in Europe are portrayed as hard left.

Our political spectrum is skewed to an extent which is only beaten by the US

Yup. And it seems we are determined to ape the US more and more, for some bizarre reason.

No.
Northern racists backed Get Brexit Done

that’s helpful, about as helpful as Corbyn was to the remain cause during the referendum.