Jeremy Corbyn

It’s controversial if you equate right-wing Labour and the Tories with “the Jews”

I don’t see why it’s controversial to suggest that as well as genuine failings and problems with anti semitism under Corbyn there was cynical weaponising of the issue by right-wing Labour and the Tories. I know this is the internet but both things can be true.

It’s not. But to suggest that it’s a Jewish conspiracy, as dannyh did, is an anti-Semitic trope.

He actually called them rich Jews.

I don’t think it’s a Jewish conspiracy. I think most of the people pushing it weren’t Jewish.

I do think there is a well funded and concerted effort by Israel to paint any and all criticism of the Israeli state and it’s actions as anti-semitic though. It’s difficult because some of it is, but not by any means all. That’s not the same as believing in an over arching Jewish conspiracy.

Edit: I’d only seen this bit

I am saying that some inevitable dovetailing of interests occurred as the Tories were desperate to pin an ‘ism’ on Labour and so many of the jewish voices stirring the pot were Tory supporting ones. The politics came first in much of this

I do think anyone supporting a party headed by Boris Johnson that’s responsible for the appaling treatment of windrush immigrants etc calling out anyone for racism is a bit rich really.

I don’t understand why the Tories get a free pass on their racism/islamophobia.

I’m going to try to enunciate this clearly and once and for all. Two reasons for this. Firstly this is the Jezza thread, so people looking for hidden meaning, straw manning and general looniness is a given. Second because I am going to bed.

Do I believe Corbyn foolishly trod a line too close to racial prejudice (and probably over that line) on his own part and by his inaction with other members of his party? Answer = yes. To my mind he was politically clueless when presented with the post-truth ‘asymmetric warfare’ practised by the populist right. But he also did not get on top of antisemitism he tacitly legitimised.

Do I believe that the average (i.e. most politically neutral) Jewish citizen of the UK was offended/concerned by Labour’s problem with antisemitism? Answer = yes.

Logically, therefore, there was/is a problem in the Labour Party with antisemitism.

Do I believe that the most vocal jewish critics of the Labour party would be more likely to be those who already supported the Tories? Answer = yes.

There will have been jewish Labour supporters who will have bitten their lip, there will be some that took a stand and their relationships will have suffered as a result. No doubt there will have been some name calling along the Uncle Tom lines etc. But this is all because there really was an underlying problem. Real, not imagined.

But much of the running, the endless reheating of the story, the strangely well-timed (politically) emergence of new details will have occurred due to political machinations. And Corbyn blundered headlong into these.

The ‘put-up job’ I talked about was not that the entire thing is a conspiracy of some kind of fantasy Jewish-billionaire cartel. The problem exists and has been gifted to Labour’s opponents by Labour themselves. But the way it has been played out has largely been driven by political actors on the Tory side.

I hope that is clear. Looking back ‘put-up job’ wasn’t a clever thing to call it. Unfortunately ‘genuine problem played expertly by opponents with political considerations in mind’ isn’t quite as snappy.

Are we at the point now where it’s anti semitic to wonder why one third of the current shadow cabinet is a member of Labour Friends of Israel – ‘a Westminster based lobby group working within the British Labour Party to promote the State of Israel’. The same Israel that’s accused of mass human rights violations

You do realise that most of the world is accused of mass human rights violations – in particular most of the Arab world.

Is your problem just when the Jews do it? You’d have to embargo most of the planet and only trade with Sweden and Norway if you actually cared about it with equal measure.

It’s not. But to suggest that it’s a Jewish conspiracy, as dannyh did, is an anti-Semitic trope.

I didn’t say that. Reference above my regret about the phrase ‘put-up job’.

It is the weaponising of the issue that is the political bit.

No I’d find it very weird if there was a Labour Friends of Saudi Arabia group that lots of the shadow cabinet were signed up to as well. Is there?

Personally I don’t see it as appropriate for politicians to be part of a group that lobbies for the interests of any country other than the UK. Can someone explain to me why it is?

I’d happily see us sever ties with Saudi Arabia, and sod the economic consequences. If we can wreck the economy for Brexit surely we can do it for worthwhile reasons too.

He actually called them rich Jews.

You don’t get listened to by the Tories unless you are rich/prominent. It is sort of a defining thing.

Again, my wording was clumsy.

I didn’t say that.

I believe that you did. Others can read your post and draw their own conclusions. As far as I’m concerned, it was explicitly anti-Semitic.

I don’t understand why the Tories get a free pass on their racism/islamophobia

Because the media is full of the ‘other lot’ having a problem with their phobia. Which is the point.

I believe that you did.

Well, that ain’t ever going to change, so I’ll have to give up on that one.

Others can read your post and draw their own conclusions.

Hope so. At worst they should conclude that a hastily written short post on a controversial issue might not be wise.

Plenty of labour types willing to sell arms to other dodgey regimes as well grum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/may/21/foreignpolicy.uk

But again, it’s only a problem when Jews go a bit genocidey.

It’s just a case of pick your poison and side with its cause. Personally I don’t GAF – humans doing human things….what’s new….but people who claim they aren’t anti-Semitic whilst banging on about the Jews are suspect to me.

I don’t understand why the Tories get a free pass on their racism/islamophobia.

Because the tories are openly racist. Maybe that’s where labour are going wrong? (Irony there BTW, I don’t actually believe that for the benefit of the trolls on here)

Just saw Angela Rayner on newsnight doing a rather amazing St Peter act of denying her previous idol. I vividly remember her singing his praises back in December on a stage in Manchester. This is how low some in labour have descended. She wouldn’t even say she didn’t think he was an anti-Semite. The tories must be pissing themselves.

Hope so. At worst they should conclude that a hastily written short post on a controversial issue might not be wise.

For reference, you said:

Absolutely no doubt that a lot of this was a put-up job by the Tories in league with some of their prominent/rich Jewish supporters.

Were you intending to play Jewish trope bingo?

But again, it’s only a problem when Jews go a bit genocidey.

This is a complete straw man. I have been against UK weapons exports to dodgy human rights abusing countries for years,as have many ‘lefty’ types I know, regardless of which hue of government was doing it. You’ll be able to find examples on this very forum dating back years, most of it not relating to Israel. Very easy to throw these accusations around though isn’t it…

She wouldn’t even say she didn’t think he was an anti-Semite.

I saw the interview and she clearly stated that she didn’t think Corbyn is anti-Semitic.

Awesome.

Well we can forget Brexit then, we’ll have to strap giant warp drives to Britain and exit earth because apart from a select few European democracies – most of the planet is suspect in terms of human rights abuses.

Danny read the report a lot of what you say is covered. It is AS. It’s like a dictionary definition ffs. Or an example the EHRC made up.

Absolutely no doubt that a lot of this was a put-up job by the Tories in league with some of their prominent/rich Jewish supporters.

Corbyn talked about stopping selling arms to Saudi in his first speech as Labour leader.

most of the planet is suspect in terms of human rights abuses

Cool let’s just shrug and accept it then.

I believe that you did. Others can read your post and draw their own conclusions. As far as I’m concerned, it was explicitly anti-Semitic.

And Lisa Nandy came out with a classic anti-semitic trope today about ‘upwards racism’ whatever the f*** that means. Which is ridiculous because neither her or dannyh are anti-semitic. It’s a hysterical witchhunt stirred up very successfully by people who have benefitted politically from it. It’s got nothing to do with racism, anti-semitism or anything else. It’s politics, plain and simple, and in this case the Labour Party have been massively damaged because many within it were too ready to side with those on the other side and others weren’t willing to defend themselves for fear of being called racists.

I saw the interview and she clearly stated that she didn’t think Corbyn is anti-Semitic.

I’ll have to watch it again. I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.

Just dipping-in to say that I agree with Binners.

The irony is that the same issue that was weaponized against Corbyn to destabilize the Labour party and contribute to their unelectibility, has now been weaponized to expel him from the party.

I don’t think Corbyn is actually an antisemite, I just think he’s a bumbling fool who’s incompetent handling of (what should have been) a simple issue to deal with distracted party members for years when they should have been concentrating on doing their jobs/getting elected. It wasn’t the accusations of antisemitism that hurt his chances – it was the fact that he showed he just couldn’t deal with it – how on earth would he be PM?

Starmer correctly realizes that Corbyn’s legacy could leave a lingering toxicity in the party which will harm their reelection chances moving forwards – and the only way to avoid that is to cut it out – along with any die-hard supporters. If they want to form their own party – more power to them.

The fact that Starmer recognizes this and has taken decisive action is another demonstration that he is exactly the leader that labour need right now – and quite how hopeless Corbyn was in comparison.

I watched Rayner on Newsnight. She was mildly convincing in saying Corbyn was wrong but Hodge provided more insight.

I don’t understand why the Tories get a free pass on their racism/islamophobia

Because it a given and matches their voters views. Labour should be above the tories level (it is difficult being the good guys!)

I don’t believe Corbyn is racist but as a leader ignoring any racism and hoping it will go away is complicit which in itself is not 100% better than being the actual racist.

It’s a hysterical witchhunt stirred up very successfully by people who have benefitted politically from it. It’s got nothing to do with racism, anti-semitism or anything else. It’s politics, plain and simple, and in this case the Labour Party have been massively damaged because many within it were too ready to side with those on the other side and others weren’t willing to defend themselves for fear of being called racists.

Basically this, although ‘nothing to do with’ antisemitism is not quite right. There is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour Party, but the media attention that has been devoted to it is way out of proportion when put alongside the media attention on the endemic racism and particularly Islamophobia amongst the Tories.

Who controls most of the media? Who benefits?

So to sum it up he is an incompetent fool who lost them the election who may or may not be anti-Semitic

So to sum it up he is an incompetent fool who lost them the election who may or may not be anti-Semitic

Yes. And that weakness was well-exploited by his political opponents. And, you should note, still is. It is now being used to overshadow Starmer’s ramping up of pressure on the government. Pressure that is richly deserved for their poor handling of covid, but is making them nervous because their true flagship policy (No Deal Brexit) is going to cause unnecessary additional chaos and misery in 2021. Anything to drown out someone who is doing his best to portray the national self harm in the interests of the few as an entirely Tory policy. Which it is.

it is difficult being the good guys!

Particularly when the opposition have very deftly manoeuvred themselves away from specific policies announced to all. Instead they have adopted the vaguer characteristics of a ‘movement’ and this in turn helps them to use social media to target contradictory messages to individual groups.

So to sum it up he is an incompetent fool who lost them the election who may or may not be anti-Semitic

Incompetent fool is a tad strong, also Johnson could as easily be thought of as an incompetent fool, it does not necessarily mean you can’t win an election. It could be that no-one could have led Labour to victory in the last election. Corbyn was a poor leader, but he is not solely to blame.

Anybody ‘may or may not be’ anything you like, Corbyn is not an anti-Semite.

I watched Rayner on Newsnight. She was mildly convincing in saying Corbyn was wrong but Hodge provided more insight.

Are you referring to Margaret “sex abuse in care homes” Hodge? I think I’ll pass on taking her seriously, thanks. Just like I’ll pass on listening to Luciana “blame Palestinians for the slaughter of Palestinian civilians” Berger.

You do realise that most of the world is accused of mass human rights violations – in particular most of the Arab world.

I thought Israel had aspirations to be a civilised democracy, and a level above the sort of despotic hellhole common in that part of the world? No? OK then. My mistake.

This cuts through to some of the reasons why JC is suspended
https://thecritic.co.uk/but-who-was-behind-the-iceberg/

Corbyn always had a “good socialist” problem, the people he stood next to, the things they would say, the targets of their bile were all excusable because they were “good socialists” and fellow travelers.

Steve Bell, another “good socialist”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2020/oct/29/steve-bell-labour-antisemitism-starmer-corbyn-cartoon

What Corbyn should now do is to shut up. Swallow the pride, tip a bitterly cynical surreptitious hat to those on the right who have played him so well, and realise that he has to take this one for the good of the team and the country at large. He played into their hands and he got taken off at the knees.

He’ll get to write a book for next Crimbo, he’ll become the go-to cuddly old leftie interviewee of choice for the media. He just needs to let go for now. We have to have a competent and composed opposition constantly nailing the Tories to their disastrous policies. Giving the same people who did for him an ‘in’ on the new guy is not in anyone’s interests apart from him and his narrow little cabal.

https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2020/29/october/-i-lost-39-members-of-my-family-in-the-holocaust-jeremy-corbyn-is-no-antisemitism

What Corbyn should now do is to shut up. Swallow the pride, tip a bitterly cynical surreptitious hat to those on the right who have played him so well, and realise that he has to take this one for the good of the team and the country at large. He played into their hands and he got taken off at the knees.

+1

However, he’s a selfish idiot, so will fight on dragging the Labour Party through anti-semitic mud until he drops dead. He just can’t help himself – similar to Ken Livingston, all ego and no common sense.

argh, so from R4 Today: Weds evening JC and team discuss content of report with Starmer on approach to handing – a big speech now buried. Thurs morning JC makes facebook statement to everyone’s surprise disputing findings of the equalities commission report, He’s asked to retract/moderate this, I think by Starmer’s office. He doesn’t. In the meantime party disciplinary procedures kick in that Starmer’s warned to keep out of (a criticism in the report was the leader’s office getting involved in disciplinary procedures). Outcome: shitshow which there were multiple opportunities to avoid precipitated by Corbyn. This really did not need to happen, though I guess his political ineptness and stubbornness was not sufficiently factored in…

I guess his political ineptness and stubbornness was not sufficiently factored in…

He’d rather destroy the Labour Party than say sorry.

Those Red Wall voters may not have swung to the Tories if Labour had stopped it’s internal faction fighting and come up with a coherent policy to explain who’s fault it was that those communities were suffering

And who was perpetuating that infighting? Oh yeah, the PLP. How did TINGE go again?

Corbyn has a lot to answer for but if you’re left with such a shallow pool of people who are actually willing to work with you what do you expect the talent level would look like?

As for the Lab/Lib brinkmanship, remember Ed Milliband got crucified after the SNP suggested it would be willing to support a Labour government, both parties knew that even a whiff of coalition would be a disaster.

I don’t think he was wrong in his response, this was entirely weaponised against him. Yes there was a problem but as pointed out that problem was being exploited and exacerbated for political gain. Yes, it happened under his watch but he acknowledged that.

https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2020/29/october/-i-lost-39-members-of-my-family-in-the-holocaust-jeremy-corbyn-is-no-antisemitism

I think “self-hating Jew” is the usual response.