It’s not easy being Singletrack. Please help.

Stop wasting the money I give you for the forum on writing articles that I have no interest in. Spend it on fixing the forum.

That’s really not how it works. It really isn’t. I could give you all the toys you want and make the forum run like a buttery smooth butter knife covered in butter. But that is not the best use of the resources we have and won’t get is the return we need in the time we need it. You personally want a forum only membership – if we did that we’d actually lose money.

Well, I for one hope we are all here to see you proven right.

Looking forward to the journey Mark. As an (over) enthusiastic armchair observer, I guess I just want to see STW thrive, and listening to your customers (the ones you want to attract as well as the loyalists filling your inbox) is a pretty good business model.

But back to the original point, I would heartily advise you to put the begging bowl away and do what you need to do to build confidence and loyalty amongst just the people that you want to convert to fee paying loyalists.

So stop giving that impression! It might not be your intent, but it sure is the end result. Give the impression that what you are doing is working, life is good and this is a great place to be (because it is, and thanks for not banning me!!!!)

No. That would be a lie and I’m not going to lie to you. Things are not great. The staffing levels here are under threat. That threat manifest itself as job losses. That’s not Singletrack under threat – that’s jobs. The way for me to protect those jobs is through appealing to you and being honest about that situation. If I said nothing, failed to turn it around and lost staff and then had a bunch of people say, ‘But why didn’t you say something?” then I’d probably have a really tough time sleeping. So.. here we are. We need more members in order to have the resources we need to make the changes that you want. Unfortunately, without the sudden appearance of a shed load of cash, that’s the only viable order of things.

We need more members in order to have the resources we need to make the changes that you want.

You need to do things differently to get more members, not ask your existing members for more. You need to understand why 130k people don’t subscribe, not why 6k do (and bear in mind some of the 6k have already told you they only subscribe to maintain the forum, despite your belief that the definition of ‘the mag’ includes the other online content that they have told you they don’t read). If there is a summary of 4 days and 203 posts, surely that is it……

I just looked up ‘Catch 22’ in the dictionary and this thread came up in the definition list. I really feel for you and genuinely (with absolutely no hint of sarcasm at all, please believe that) wish you the very best of luck with the future direction.

@Mark Any thoughts on encouraging members (and non-members if it comes to that) to use Brave browser to access the site given the collapse in ad revenue?

Like I said earlier, I see that STW is a Verified Creator on the Brave browser so I guess you are at least aware of it?

@solarider I agree with your points an views whole heartedly along with your sentiment and best wishes to Mark and the team. But as Einstein said repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the path to insanity

You need to do things differently to get more members, not ask your existing members for more.

Do you really think that the only thing the Singletrack staff are doing is posting a thread on the forum and sitting back and waiting for the answer? Posters/readers of the forum are an important part of Singletrack. As are subscribers/readers of the magazine. Mark & Co won’t only be relying solely on either as they plan for the future. And planning for the future and adapting to it is something they have a proven record of doing well, when others have failed.

Do you really think that the only thing the Singletrack staff are doing is posting a thread on the forum and sitting back and waiting for the answer?

I was referring to the financial ask. Mark never asked for a business review, but I guess that’s what he inadvertently got. I appreciate that the whole of this thread has been an unsolicited response to a request for cash which has been met with a load of well intentioned but totally unsolicited arm chair business advice.

It has been largely respectful and given and received in good humour and spirits, which is nice.

something they have a proven record of doing well, when others have failed.

Don’t be so sure that because it has worked in the past however, that it is still going to work going forward. Which leads nicely to…..

But as Einstein said repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the path to insanity

Ha. Do you mean me or Mark? Either way, fair comment. I am at risk of repeating myself even more. I am leaving my thoughts here (no, really this time!).

You need to understand why 130k people don’t subscribe, not why 6k do. If there is a summary of 4 days and 203 posts, surely that is it……

With the add on question of…. “why do only 130k out of 20,000,000” come here… ?

If not worldwide… why is the site very very UK biased… not in terms of content, but in terms of membership. You can see it by 4am posts… this place is dead… whereas MTBR.com is in it’s peak at 4am Uk…. Obviously full of American time people.. So why doesn’t STW get more ‘foreign’ members… And how can it attract them.
Could it be in terms of ‘payment options’ that the non-UK residents simply don’t have the ability to pay/create and how do STW Towers resolve that ?

I appreciate that the whole of this thread has been an unsolicited response to a request for cash

You might be forgetting the whole history of Singletrack… many on the forum would see themselves as “supporters” not just “users” of Singletrack. Asking for a bit more support is fine with me. I’d better go and check out what’s in the shop now I’ve said that…

Do you really think that the only thing the Singletrack staff are doing is posting a thread on the forum and sitting back and waiting for the answer?

I don’t reckon SR is thinking much at all. Instead all he’s doing is shouting the same point again and again even though Mark has told him he’s wrong. It’s just the usual internet keyboard warrior inflated self-opinion bollocks. SR might think his views are considered and constructive, to me he just comes across as someone who wants an argument. If that’s the case there are numerous threads on here about total shite where he can do just that, rather than this one which is actually about something very real and important to the people who are involved in it.

to me he just comes across as someone who wants an argument

I’ve followed the whole thread. You appear to be the one jumping in after six pints with fists flailing. Maybe go back to those argument threads you refer to

 My one singular goal is that future contains all the staff we currently have – that’s it!

For which you have to be applauded.  I see too many businesses that seem to exist for the sake of the business and the people are just a resource to be consumed or not.  Yes you have to be realistic and make cuts at the right time but having the continuation of the staff as part of the goals (or even the one singular goal) rocks.  Wish more people did more that just pay lipservice to this

@Mark Any thoughts on encouraging members (and non-members if it comes to that) to use Brave browser to access the site given the collapse in ad revenue?

Brave is good. yeah. We’ve seen some revenue that way. Not a lot and it still isn’t anywhere near as much as we would get from programmatic but I have to be honest and say that if you did decide to block ads that you did it by switching to Brave rather than by installing an ad blocker.

Crikey! I think I just fell foul of the moderators on that one 🙂

Daz. I think that there is more confrontational, argumentative and insulting language in your single post than I have included in all of my contributions to this thread.

Don’t confuse a drunken pub car park argument with an intelligent debate. It’s what separates a civilised society from an uncivilised one.

On one thing we agree – this is a serious matter. I don’t think that I have diminished it’s importance in any way, but whilst I appreciate your passion, your uncivil tone does diminish whatever point lies beneath.

…coffee and a tea towel ordered. Any other shop recommendations? Lots of out of stock items I like the look of but obviously missed when they were fresh.

I’ve followed the whole thread.

Me too, and that was my first post on it. Trouble is when you see people on here (who aren’t even a f***** member!) questioning the contribution of people who work here and even calling for their jobs to be cut, then people like me who know those people and know and appreciate what they do are going to respond. 🤷‍♂️

Don’t confuse a drunken pub car park argument with an intelligent debate.

Repeating the same point again and again, however many words you use, is not intelligent debate. You made your point, Mark responded and yet you’re still banging on and on.

I appreciate I may be pissing in the wind with this staff first thing but that’s probably down to my socialist upbringing 🙂

There’s a thing called social capitalism. Profit is required in order to sustain the business – it’s just that I see the staff of a business as something more than a resource – they ARE the business and the the first job of a business should be to provide solid employment. What’s left after that can be the spoils. Personally I’m more proud of the fact I’ve helped create and run something that has employed people. I like employing people. But like I said, I could very well be pissing in the wind as that’s not how business usually work 🙂

Crikey! I think I just fell foul of the moderators on that one 🙂

I use Brave anyway (as well as being a member) and I found I can set the rewards to give STW extra each month (otherwise YouTube would end up getting the money and I don’t reckon they need any more).

I’d imagine most people aren’t aware of it and just use a normal ad-blocker as has been mentioned a few times on this thread but I guess people would rather send something to STW, especially if it was ‘money’ they were never even aware existed.

But yes, I can see the dilemma given the ban on ad-blockers to then tell users to use an ad-blocking browser 🙂

who aren’t even a f***** member!

Here we go again. Local forums for local people!

I have explained why I am a lapsed member elsewhere in this thread. I have also suggested that STW might explore revenue opportunities from the forum. Until they do, I am positively encouraged to use the forum for free. I have also made it clear that I have not at any point called for jobs to be culled. On the contrary, making STW thrive would safeguard those jobs.

If you want to attract more users to your special club Daz (and make no mistake that is exactly what you need), then perhaps be a little more welcoming and open to a diverse range of opinions. I appreciate that emotions are high, but there are ways of making a point…

Maybe you and others are right. Maybe I should just downsize and make some staff cuts

Has anyone actually said that? There have certainly been questions as to what the staff do to generate the content witnessed (which I could be taken badly) but nobody has actually said anyone should lose their job.

@dazh

Trouble is when you see people on here (who aren’t even a f***** member!)

This is exactly what’s wrong with this place. 6 pages in and a sensible, respectful debate right until you waded in, have a word with yourself.

 Any other shop recommendations?

The cherry pom pom hat and the club ride shirts are some of my favourite pieces of clothing, although the brighter colours on the shirts are missing now :(.  Unfortunately the customs charges are making it much tougher for me to order that stuff now unless i know I’m going to be back in the UK for a bit

Has anyone actually said that?

I did – 1st comment – straight in with the dagger! 😬🗡

Cheers leffeboy… ride shirts was where I started, they look great, but all out of stock is average man sizes. Also fancy some pedal covers for throwing bikes in the car.

But yes, I can see the dilemma given the ban on ad-blockers to then tell users to use an ad-blocking browser 🙂

It’s a pickle 🙂

Ultimate solution is to get to a point where we don’t need the ads. Programmatic ones at least. That’s doable but (broken record again – sorry) We need your help*… blah blah 🙂

*Not you personally Bruce. You already do 🙂

How does this Brave browser thing work then?

Could we be logged in properly on Chrome for example but do a bit of STW browsing on Brave to generate revenue for them?

I did – 1st comment – straight in with the dagger! 😬🗡

So you did! I think the first and only time then.

Ultimate solution is to get to a point where we don’t need the ads. Programmatic ones at least. That’s doable but (broken record again – sorry) We need your help… blah blah 🙂

Without wanting to spin my own broken record we’ve offered solutions, I’d pay to remove ads and upload pics. Make it cheap enough and folk will pay. Of course I’m a sample of one but there have already been a few people who have said similar things.

@chakaping RE:Cranked

Is it? Bet they are struggling too.

Seb has had to put prices up a few times, he did canvass subscribers beforehand and most were happy to go ahead. Not sure I’d say he was struggling though.

Without wanting to spin my own broken record we’ve offered solutions, I’d pay to remove ads

Crikey. I’ve done a pretty exhaustive job of explaining things but I guess it’s not enough. If we offered a cheaper forum only membership, we would (at least initially) lose a lot of money as the bulk of those new memberships would be fed by the downgrading of existing members. At least at first. The problem as I’ve explained at length, is we don’t have the resources to be able to do that. In other, clearer, words. we can’t afford to do that right now. No matter how much you wish it to be different, it would cause Singletrack the business a sudden shock that I assess would not be able to survive without something else being sacrificed. So, due to the risk it would cause to job security here, I’m ruling it out.

Members first I’m afraid. It’s our best option. If you believe me then maybe you’ll decide to join us and help get that journey started?

How does this Brave browser thing work then?

Assuming there’s no objections, I could put a few ‘how to’ screenshots up on this thread later?

Downloading and opening Brave is straightforward, anyway. Then it’s just a question of setting up the rewards. Which is also fairly straightforward, tbh.

I’ve done a pretty exhaustive job of explaining things

No. No you haven’t. You have said it isn’t an option but not why and it’s actually the first time you have expressed your concern that:

the bulk of those new memberships would be fed by the downgrading of existing members

You are effectively finally admitting that the forum is your most valuable (and untapped) asset and that some/many/most (you decide) people pay their subscription out of loyalty and community more than because of the value that they place on ‘the mag’ (your content in its broadest sense). I am not looking to diminish the mag at all here.

Your social capitalism experiment is fine until you have to extend the begging plate. You have created something amazing and (a few members excepted!) a wonderful community. It just needs a little more on the top line and/or a more appropriate cost base. It’s all within your gift.

Oh FFS. Really?

That’s so not what I’m ‘admitting’. Please. You said you’d said enough. It’s getting awkward now and it looks like you just went ‘Aha! Gotcha!’.. Did you? Did you just jump up and say ‘Gotcha?’.. I bet you did 🙂

Nope. Good luck Mark.

When the owner is the chief troll, I am afraid it isn’t a community I want to be a part of any more.

Enjoy the echo chamber chaps. Let me know how it goes in there passing around the begging bowl.

Without wanting to spin my own broken record we’ve offered solutions, I’d pay to remove ads and upload pics. Make it cheap enough and folk will pay.

As has been pointed out, on this thread (I think) and other threads, the digital membership equates to 50p per week. How cheap would it have to be to encourage existing free members to pay for a forum-only membership?

I prefer to see it (and perhaps STW could market it as such), that a digital membership gives you ad-free forum access plus access to the digital version of the magazine as a ‘free bonus’.

and that some/many/most (you decide) people pay their subscription out of loyalty and community

And some don’t and still see fit to offer ill-considered advice. 🙄

I’ve bought bum butter and a hat, good luck 👍

Maybe give free memebers a month or 2 digi sub for free, to get them used to the site with no ads a few might join after that. Espescially if there were also better payment options.

Here we go again. Local forums for local people!

Or maybe just for people prepared to contribute something more than the benefit of their undoubted wisdom

You have created something amazing and (a few members excepted!) a wonderful community

Yet not one you’re personally prepared to do anything to support.

I think you may have to reappraise your definition of a ‘community’

Downloading and opening Brave is straightforward, anyway. Then it’s just a question of setting up the rewards. Which is also fairly straightforward, tbh.

I just tried but it looks like I’ve got to set up some special account to handle the rewards that mentions cards, Bitcoin, wallets and wants a bunch more info than I am comfortable giving without a lot more investigation

Maybe give free memebers a month or 2 digi sub for free, to get them used to the site with no ads a few might join after that. Espescially if there were also better payment options.

We did that for a year 3 years ago. Analysis showed it netted us no additional new members when run as an A/B test against the hard paywall.

Things may have changed in 3 years so maybe we’ll revisit and try again. But it was a weird unexpected result for sure.

I just tried but it looks like I’ve got to set up some special account to handle the rewards that mentions cards, Bitcoin, wallets and wants a bunch m

Yes, therein lies the fundamental rub. Someone has to pay. If the ads aren’t doing the paying then it falls to someone else. In the case of Brave that’s you. It will require that you set up a payment of some small amount in your account. Then it allocates that money to publishers of websites depending a) which you visit and b) what proportion of your account you ascribe to each website.