I’m more of a forum lurker than a poster but have been here a pretty long time and I like the basic layout of the place . I download the mag and some stuff i really enjoy and some stuff i just scan through . I had the pressreader app for a while so would also read MBUK and MBR and to be honest i could flick through them  in  a matter of minutes and not feel like I had read anything i had not seen plenty of times before . The example i always thought off was how many times I had seen an article about Gypsy Glen , it felt like every year one of the mags would have an article about Glentress’s secret natural route . Then every winter a lights test for really expensive lights , when everyone i know bought cheap Chinese knock offs . It must be hard to come up with fresh ideas every month but i think singletrack  does that better than the other mags .

I know next to nothing about business so am in no place to offer advice but i would like to applaud Mark for his obvious respect and care for his employees . I worked for a company for 26 years from the age of 16 and if i wasn’t sure of it before , covid proved they could not give a flying monkeys about me , my family or value my loyalty . Its nice to see someone who obviously values their staff and cares for them .

I might as well add to the cod business school stuff being said by others.

People saying they won’t pay the digital sub because “they don’t read the mag” seem to have missed the point that it doesn’t cost anything for STW to make a digital version of the mag for you – there’s zero marginal cost for digital goods. Some facts:

It makes no sense for them to cannibalise the “digital subscription” for a “forum only subscription” – Fact
The cost to them would be exactly the same, whether it included the digital mag or not – Fact
£25 per year to support a brilliant community and one of the few great businesses you use every day is a bargain – Fact

Anyway, for some reason reading all of the mad stuff in this thread made me upgrade my subscription. Keep up the good work, Mark, Hannah, Charlie and team.

(Edit – hmmm saying FACT after every line makes me look mad, if you haven’t read the last few pages of this thread)

Many replies later and no one has debunked any of the facts I posted. Lots of infantile comments though which kind of proves my point!

Many replies later and no one has debunked any of the facts I posted.

What are your views on being able to access local shops and amenities within a 15 minute walk or bike ride?

there’s zero marginal cost for digital goods

Well, I’m assuming that the various journalists aren’t working for free. So, in your example, any content not generated by the forum members does have a cost. There’s currently a choice (and Mark has made it clear it is his choice) being made to employ journalists over more forum tech team.

Many replies later and no one has debunked any of the facts I posted.

TBH, there’s already a thread for that discussion. Crack on over there, but read through it first as you’ll find much of the ground already covered, hence nobody bothering to repeat it all.

What are your views on being able to access local shops and amenities within a 15 minute walk or bike ride?

Fine in theory so long as it’s done through a carrot rather than a stick approach, oh and with the full consent of the people who live there. But in Oxford the vast majority do not want it. But the council are railroading it through anyway. So no, not fine in this instance. Same with London ULEZ. Now onto the facts I wrote. I assume since you provided the diversion, you can’t debunk any of them. Seriously, you guys are pathetic.

Now onto the facts I wrote.

If you pay for a subscription I’ll happily talk to you all day about your ‘facts’. You want an argument? Then pay for it or go back to Facebook.

If you pay for a subscription I’ll happily talk to you all day about your ‘facts’. You want an argument? Then pay for it or go back to Facebook.

I think we both know that me paying for a subscription is not going to happen, but nice try once again to deflect. There’s no argument to be had in any case as all the facts I posted are exactly that – facts.

£25 per year to support a brilliant community

Having been on the receiving end of abuse for being a free member I’d dispute that assessment. If I was paying to be abused it would be by a 6 foot redhead (and I don’t really go for financial domination).

That’s the problem, some people think just because they’ve paid a membership then it entitles them to act like arseholes to everyone else. That’s not an exclusively STW problem, it’s a society problem. Drivers, tax payers, higher rate tax payers, council tax payers – all the same entitled [use your imagination].

As I said, I’ve explained my logic. And regardless of my reasons or circumstance very few if any people on here make their personal circumstances known. The way folk try to shame folk on here regarding membership status is really shitty. I bet none of the ones that do have said anything to Gnusmas. How many others do you think might be lurking undetected? I honestly haven’t found this on any forum anywhere else, even when contributer status is acknowledged and that includes the shooting forums where the lefties are a small minority.

The sad irony is, it’s exactly those people that put folk off from subscribing. I’m the sort of person that wouldn’t now out of sheer bloody mindedness. Funny that, abuse people and they want nothing to do with helping your community. Double irony.

There’s no argument to be had in any case as all the facts I posted are exactly that – facts.

There’s no argument, because you told us that your opinion is fixed, so who’s going to bother hitting their head against that particular wall? You said…

But I do not need to be educated or have my opinion changed thank you.

…so why would anyone try to engage? Waste of time.

…so why would anyone try to engage? Waste of time.

But people have engaged, but with infantile responses and ad-hominem type stuff. Par for the course for when I was last on here in 2020. People who realise they have been wrong all along have to resort to this kind of playground type stuff I guess to deflect from the truth. Rather sad IMO.

People who realise they have been wrong all along have to resort to this kind of playground type stuff I guess to deflect from the truth

No one has engaged with your “truth” because it would take pages and pages of responses and to and fro to walk through what you posted… and it’s all been done already… again and again. Where as a quick response asking you to post in and read the Covid thread takes no time at all. Try that, and see if people will respond there tomorrow.

The way folk try to shame folk on here regarding membership status is really shitty.

References to supporting Singletrack here in this thread are simply because that’s what this thread is about… people bringing it back to that, rather than going though an off topic rant point by point, aren’t bullying.

Ok.

Can we get back to the topic of this thread please.

@angusrob take your thoughts to one of the relevant threads please.

It makes no sense for them to cannibalise the “digital subscription” for a “forum only subscription”

Well, not necessarily…

Lets assume for a second that none of the people who are regulars change their subs levels to the lower level for a moment.

But a Forum only at £15 a year brought in another 5000 members who signed up at that rate… then surely it does make sense.. All of this assumes they’re thnking the £25 (or whatever it is) is too expensive, but £15 is acceptable. So in some ways it could make a difference. If we assume it’s correct that there’s 130,000 member/signed up… there’s got to be scope to get some more money in the coffers somehow. There could be loads at home thinking “i’m not paying for a magazine i won’t ever read”… “but i’d pay just for a forum”

@angusrob take your thoughts to one of the relevant threads please.

Nahhhh, I can’t be arsed. I did that in 2020 and most of what I said has now been proven correct. Yet all I got at the time was personal attacks, bullying, or people spouting government sanctioned rhetoric and/or personal opinion over long acquired epidemiological knowledge and the actual data on the ground. With the same sanctimonious type of people still on that thread, with their heads still seemingly ‘far in the sand’, what would I achieve by going there again?

Even TiRed, as clever as he no doubt is, had a rather myopic take on the whole thing and was a supporter of the dodgy modelling on which our government seemed to base it’s policy. I guess that’s what you get when your head is so buried in it that you can’t see the wood for the trees. You become so focused on your own little area of expertise that it becomes all-consuming and, lacking perspective and critical thinking, you cant appreciate the bigger picture. Either that or your job and salary and the income of your organisation is so tied to you thinking in that particular way, perhaps both. One thing feeds another perhaps?

And the public remain largely ignorant too, but then if you only get your news from government approved sources then it’s not surprising that most people don’t know that natural immunity is far superior to vaccine acquired immunity, and had just as big a role (probably way bigger) than the vaccines in reducing the national death toll from Covid. But you won’t hear much of this, or a multitude of other inconvenient truths in the BBC or the Guardian. You won’t hear either about the creep of Digital ID’s, Central Bank Digital Currencies or the forthcoming WHO Global Pandemic Treaty, soon to over-ride national democracies around the world. But hey-ho, it’s all crazy conspiracy stuff – right?

Yet here we are, and the $400 billion of money printing and borrowing to support our chosen lockdown policy, plus the severe disruption and distortion to global supply chains, materials, commodities etc. caused by lockdown policy is the main driver behind the huge global inflation we are now experiencing (they blame it all on Ukraine of course). Yet Singletrack, who supported the lockdowns so far as I can see, and alienated some former paid subscribers in the process, now complains that it’s print costs have gone up by 20%, it’s web revenue is down, and as a result has had to come cap in hand to it’s remaining readers to be able to pay it’s bills. Like turkeys showing their support for Xmas! Honestly, you can’t make it up – really!

Anyway I’ve said my piece and you probably don’t like it, so I’ll leave it there. So Adios Singletrack, and good luck. You’ll probably need it!

Oh and has lockdown saved the NHS yet does anyone know?

…yet you keep coming back. Have bored the tits off everyone else in your life with your teenage drivel?

Well, I’m assuming that the various journalists aren’t working for free. So, in your example, any content not generated by the forum members does have a cost. There’s currently a choice (and Mark has made it clear it is his choice) being made to employ journalists over more forum tech team.

@scotroutes Sure, but that’s content generated for the print mag already.

And yes, he’s not going to replace journalists with programmers. It also sounds like his actual decision is potentially sadly much harder than that, and not beneficial to anyone 😞

Lastly, if STW was purely a forum with user generated content, it’s very unlikely that people would be happy to pay any meaningful money for it. “Just use Reddit!”

The way folk try to shame folk on here regarding membership status is really shitty.

Exactly my thoughts.

Just stop, it ain’t helpful and sounds like an attack on members who are struggling juggling their finances.

+1 Marko & Solar on their last points.

Worth looking here: STW Financials

As someone who has bought and sold a few businesses, I’m not sure it looks all that healthy but maybe the paid for accounts reveal something different. If you are going to subscribe, my advice based on these financials, would be to pay your subs monthly rather than all up front.

But a Forum only at £15 a year brought in another 5000 members who signed up at that rate… then surely it does make sense.. All of this assumes they’re thnking the £25 (or whatever it is) is too expensive, but £15 is acceptable. So in some ways it could make a difference. If we assume it’s correct that there’s 130,000 member/signed up… there’s got to be scope to get some more money in the coffers somehow. There could be loads at home thinking “i’m not paying for a magazine i won’t ever read”… “but i’d pay just for a forum”

I can’t see 5000 being realistic in any way- in fact I’d be surprised if more than a few hundred would sign up.

I’d be interested in seeing (but I’m sure Mark’s not going to publish) a breakdown of number of users/pageviews/posts. It may be confirmation bias, but I would guess that a large proportion of the signups are gone/”backup” id’s/one off or very occasional users. The core content creators on here probably number no more than a couple of hundred or so.

In my opinion, the need isn’t to extract more money from the existing users, it’s to grab new users and monetise them. I’ve been on here a long time (issue 3 to establish my heritage) like many others, and am now in my 60’s- the demographic is ageing, and it’d be great if there more younger riders coming on. the board. Off the top of my head weeksy, kryton, Tracey and matt_outandabout all have kids who are keen cyclists and their parents write of their kids, but I doubt that any of those kids have any interest in being part of Singletrack.

I can see Mark’s point- he’s not after world domination, just providing the necessary income for a small group of people, and that’s a great attitude, but I’m not sure that asking the existing fanbase to keep things going by itself is the right decision.

Obviously all the above is guesswork, not the thoughts of a professional. I must say I’m really surprised nobody has suggested bringing in the consultants……

.

A passive aggressive encore to the flounce – diva level foruming 😂

Why so coy on your previous login @angus_rob?

Off the top of my head weeksy, kryton, Tracey and matt_outandabout all have kids who are keen cyclists and their parents write of their kids, but I doubt that any of those kids have any interest in being part of Singletrack.

Yeah i’m afraid we won’t see the boy on here… He’s very much part of the Insta/Snapchat generation rather than forums.

Wowsers. This took a turn!

Until the top of page 6 this was a respectful debate on all sides. Then the lunatics took over the asylum.

Worth reflecting on the whole non-subscriber bashing. The community that Mark has created does not compel anybody to pay. It seems that for entirely positive reasons that is something that Mark holds dear and I respect that. The self appointed lynchmob appear to take a different view, but let’s hold a mirror up to that argument. Let’s assume for a moment that we all agree that somehow if you don’t subscribe, your perspective is somehow diminished. Is the following also true?

1) Because I don’t pay road tax for my bike, I shouldn’t ride on the road?

2) Because I pay more tax than somebody else my voice and vote should count more?

3) Because I am better educated than somebody else they should not be allowed a voice or a vote?

4) Because I am disabled and cannot work and therefore don’t pay into the public accounts but instead take from them in the form of benefits that I should not have a voice or a vote at all?

Everybody’s financial and philosophical position is different and just to reinforce the earlier point, nobody is compelled to pay to be here. It has been suggested but rejected. Therefore, who has the authority or right to stand in judgement?

The trouble with Animal Farm is that in the end not all animals are equal. Some people have appointed themselves as STW Napoleon, despite their apparent left leaning egalitarian facade.

The point at which the debate descended (and sorry Mark but you did little to lead by example) was the point at which I exited but I didn’t want my silence to be misinterpreted, or for the kind of behaviour which is unfortunately typical of how things end up around here to go unchallenged. The community that you hold so dear cannot be mob led or offensive if it is to be a welcoming place for more subscribers. As Charlie so rightly tried to point out, it’s just about bikes chaps!

The community that you hold so dear cannot be mob led or offensive if it is to be a welcoming place for more subscribers.

As you may or may not be aware, i own a motorbike forum, https://revtothelimit.co.uk/index.php

It’s smaller than this place, but in terms of postings, it compares well/better with most if not all UK motorbike forums. But we have the same issue there, the same issues on PB forum, the same issues on other forums, which is the perception of some members that they’re more important and own their right to preach to everyone along with the perception from newbies that they won’t quite ‘fit in’ as there’s cliques. Neither Mark (and his staff) or myself can do a hell of a lot about that.. We can only TRY to keep the forum nice and sweet and happy. But people have different views in the world. Sadly this world has moved now to where people cannot debate. All the can do is throw words out and preach, but they rarely listen in return. It’s a damn shame, but it’s the reality of society. The mods here may not do a perfect job, but they do it better than 99.9% of people on here, who don’t offer their services for the job. It’s an unrewarding job that’s for sure.

non-subscriber bashing

Some of this isn’t that at all. It is calling out someone creating a new account to rant in this thread about their worldview and against Singletrack. Don’t confuse response to that new account with a more general attack on people with free accounts.

Having not been on the Covid thread for a while I hadn’t realised Andrew Bridgen had joined the forum?

“i’m not paying for a magazine i won’t ever read”… “but i’d pay just for a forum”

This. I would make a donation if it was east todo.

Also, I feel inferior because of my Free Member tag :(. But hey, the internet shuffles on 🙂

Perhaps the site forum should be Archived, and we all say goodbye :((((

Angus’s rant was so bizarre that I can see past it. It isn’t worth the air time and too many people have credited it with legitimacy by rising to the bait already.

Be under no illusion however, whether intentional, whether malicious or whether accidental there is plenty of direct non-subscriber bashing in this thread beyond the response to Angus’s rant (picks up cup of tea and a hobnob now that he has now also placed himself in Angus’s crosshairs…………)

The donation page is in the ‘More’ sub menu at the top of the page

The donation page is in the ‘More’ sub menu at the top of the page

MAybe that’s not where it ought to be 😉

Can we have a ‘hide forum member’ button!? I’d pay for that! 🙂

Yeah – and donation button needs to be more prominent. You need to update the date too, still has 2022 on it. And why no Paypal? There’s got to be a lot more Paypal users than GooglePay. And filling out card details is like, soooo old fashioned! 🤣

I struggled to payup this year when my sub needed renewing. Basically because of the way this thread has gone.

A few posters were debating some things, quite amicably and then someone decides they’re gonna get snarky thinking they know better and then theres a pile on. Then someone comes on and totally derails the thread and turns it into an absolute shit fest.

Even the mods and the site owner get involved, when the whole thread is supposed to trying to generate new members!!! Yeah thats gonna work.

I keep seeing people say it’s only £2 a month, but it isn’t. Its £5 a month or £25 annually (digi) or £45 annually (paper). Its not about whether or not people can afford to pay £25 but if they want to payout £25 or £45 in one go. Give more options and you might get more members. I know someone will say, “well it’s half the price of a tyre”. Yeah it is, but people put value on a tyre that they are clearly not seeing here. Better content, different payment options (even with higher prices) might bring in more memebers. But really, I reckon you’ve hit a ceiling with the paper subs as paper mags must be on their way out, so the effort needs to be put in somewhere else to generate more paying members.

Anyway, this thread has gone to shit after being quite intersting so i’m floucing out as well!

Mark – Charities need donations, businesses don’t. Monetise what you are good and you won’t need handouts to get by. Revenue and profit to reinvest really aren’t dirty words. They are the best way to protect your people’s futures.

FACT! 😉

At least make the button prominent and call it an honesty box (unless of course you are going to take me up on the earlier suggestion of becoming an actual registered charity?).

If you can see through the smoke of the pitch torches 😉 or hear over the baying mob, there’s plenty of good feedback in this thread if you want to see it.

Mark – Charities need donations, businesses don’t.

Tell that to The Guardian, Wikipedia and Politicians! 🙂

The Guardian relied on print and print is dead.

Wikipedia set up a free model and realised that at some point they had to monetise to survive.

2 brilliant cautionary tales for STW…………

I’m only 10-15 minutes from STW by bike but I’ve never read actually read the mag even once. So I’ve subbed to the print version. I don’t post much but when I ask a question on here I usually get good answers and gotta support local business eh.