It’s not easy being Singletrack. Please help.

The Guardian relied on print and print is dead.

No it isn’t – it’s reduced.

And you can argue technology has made it easier for the likes of STW to exist – high quality, short runs and mailed direct from the printers. And the rapid advancement of digital presses is helping even more.

All the major daily papers are still on the shelf and my local newsagent is full of magazines. Local papers have gone as they were full of rubbish anyway.

Physical books were going to be killed off by Kindles – but they’ve seen a resurgence.

They’ve been saying print is dead for 30+ years.

the-muffin-man
Been in the print trade all me life – boy and man! 🙂

Wow. That was fun catching up.

Nothing to say on the subs model or the rights and wrongs of free members / whether their opinion is more or less valuable because they haven’t subscribed.

More on the subject of advice, which I’ve fallen foul of in the past and i don’t think we do well on here – how many threads have their been where ‘give me some advice on….. rapidly turns into NO NOT THAT ADVICE!!!!

Advice is like an unsolicited present.

The receiver should thank the giver for it and then decide what to do with it; maybe it’ll take pride of place on the sideboard, maybe it’ll be in Oxfam before the week’s out.

The giver needs to accept that too. Just because someone chooses to ignore, or explain why the advice doesn’t fit with their plan, shouldn’t be taken as offence. Once the advice is given it belongs to them to do with what they want.

There are some threads / posters that i won’t engage on now because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude. I accept that they don’t want the advice, no point keep popping back up and repeating it.

Sage advise JonV.

It’s becoming a circular debate (punctuated by off topic rants and abusive exchanges), and one which I respectfully left 4 pages ago.

My intention was not to reignite points already made, so apologies for that.

Simply resurfaced to call for a little respect and to call off the dogs and fell into a trap of my own making!

The irony of this thread is that I was considering resubscribing but in a sad twist of irony it has cemented exactly why I unsubscribed 12 months ago.

exactly why I unsubscribed 12 months ago

Funnily enough, I’m the opposite. My sub ended and I tried to stay away, couldn’t so took up the half price offer. A nice compromise I thought. Back to the topic and on the strength of some of the above posts, I think if I were Mark I’d just close the forum down and have done with it.

I think STW should get Angus to write an article every month. He’s funny 🙂

Local papers have gone as they were full of rubbish anyway.

Bit of a tangent, but a lot of local newspapers used to be really good.

But the internet took all the classifieds and most of the small business advertising, and they went from being well-staffed with low-paid journalists in the local area to poorly staffed with low-paid journalists in an “editorial hub” 50 miles away.

And they are much thinner because of the lack of ads.

And their websites are a nightmare of intrusive and annoying adverts.

Maybe there’s a parallel with STW there, but I’m not gonna force it.

I think STW should get Angus to write an article in Flat Earthers Monthly every month. He’s funny 🙂

FTFY

It’s becoming a circular debate (punctuated by off topic rants and abusive exchanges), and one which I respectfully left 4 pages ago.

And yet here you still are. The only reason it’s a circular debate is because people such as yourself keep posting the same arguments again and again even though they’ve already been refuted or rejected as being unworkable or directly damaging to the business that runs this forum. I’m sorry that you are offended by people disagreeing with you, but there really has been no ‘pile-on’ and there really isn’t any anti-free member clique or movement on here. All there is is people openly expressing their views, and just like in real life, some of us do that more directly than others.

Now, do you have a new point to make about subscriptions and how the magazine can improve it’s financial health? If so please make it, but be prepared for some people to disagree with it.

because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude.

So you’re complaining because some of us aren’t polite enough? If I was to turn that around I could easily argue that those of us who haven’t had the education and upbringing to be so eloquent and charming in putting across our arguments could be excluded from contributing. I’m not going to argue that though because I’m perfectly capable of standing up for myself and not being offended at having my views challenged.

Even the mods and the site owner get involved, when the whole thread is supposed to trying to generate new members!!! Yeah thats gonna work.

That’ll be me. You’ll see I thanked people for signing up for a prescription. I’ve not knocked anyone anyone for being free members as well have a choice.

Maybe there’s a parallel with STW there, but I’m not gonna force it.

those saying “print is dead” are pretty clueless IMO, yeah the heyday might be over but you’ve only got to look at the shelves in any newsagents or supermarket to see rows & rows of magazines.

My dad still buys “Railway Modeller” every month, they have a circulation of almost 29k including 12k subscribers! And I don’t think it’s necessarily that everyone who’s into it is tech-illiterate either, as YouTube etc is massive and there are lots of very popular forums.

I think there is a distinct difference in attitude though; your average model train enthusiast actually enjoys spending money on magazines/books, local shows, paying a bit more to support local model shop/small businesses etc whereas a lot of MTBers I encounter (no-one on here, of course 😉) is as tight as a gnat’s chuff, won’t pay for anything unless there’s a gun to their head & only buys the cheapest grey-imports off of big online sellers, as for them all they do is ride (solo) and cannot see/appreciate the “community” aspect of the hobby 🤔

Daz, if you are going to selectively quote, please don’t edit for effect. Since you failed to, here’s the rest of what I said:

My intention was not to reignite points already made, so apologies for that.

Simply resurfaced to call for a little respect and to call off the dogs and fell into a trap of my own making!

Unfortunately you are attributing your second quote to me, but it is not something that I wrote. Perhaps take that up with the original author.

I am happy to disagree and debate and be proven wrong and concede. I’m also happy to concede that some of my points have been overly made (but it is clear that I am not alone in my thoughts).

It’s all in the delivery and upbringing, education and eloquence or lack thereof should not be an excuse for uncivil behaviour. I am not challenging your ability to defend your point at all, so please don’t take offence. It is clear that you are only too ready to ease in and offer your perspective and defend your position and the position of others.

Unfortunately you are attributing your second quote to me, but it is not something that I wrote. Perhaps take that up with the original author.

I was replying to theotherjonv. By quoting the point it should be pretty obvious that I’m responding to that point and hence to the person who posted it. It is possible you know to respond to multiple points and posters in one post. 🙂

so please don’t take offence.

I don’t take offence at anything on here. Well there was one time I did, but that involved accusations of being a nazi sympathiser. Anything else though is fair game.

whereas a lot of MTBers I encounter (no-one on here, of course 😉) is as tight as a gnat’s chuff, won’t pay for anything unless there’s a gun to their head & only buys the cheapest grey-imports off of big online sellers, as for them all they do is ride (solo) and cannot see/appreciate the “community” aspect of the hobby

Hello!

I appreciate the community, in theory, just so long as I don’t have to interact with it in person and it doesn’t clog up my trails unnecessarily.

Actually, I would love to get back into the riding ‘community’ but my life schedule is currently dictated by a 6 year old and a 9 year old so it’s solo rides and grey market imports until they turn 16 and I can legally kick them out the house.

My sincere apologies Daz. It wasn’t obvious to me. Thanks for clarifying.

that involved accusations of being a nazi sympathiser

Ah, STW at its best 😀

Unfortunately this thread, like so many on here, has descended from a sensible debate and discussion on a topic to a rant fest and become increasingly unpleasant in tone. Im not sure this reflects to well on the ‘community’ most are passionate about. Im completely bemused as to how the last 3 or 4 pages are meant to help broaden that community

I thought this thread started in a pretty constructive way so I’ve followed with interest. The last four pages have mostly reminded me there are parts of the forum I give a swerve and why I’d rather not be seen wearing anything Singletrack branded in public. Who wants to be associated with all that shit?

because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude.

So you’re complaining because some of us aren’t polite enough? If I was to turn that around I could easily argue that those of us who haven’t had the education and upbringing to be so eloquent and charming in putting across our arguments could be excluded from contributing. I’m not going to argue that though because I’m perfectly capable of standing up for myself and not being offended at having my views challenged.

No, just making the point that having given the advice and had it rejected, rather than particularly take offence and / or keep going back and making the point over and over again I should accept they don’t want it. As indeed I said

The giver needs to accept that too. Just because someone chooses to ignore, or explain why the advice doesn’t fit with their plan, shouldn’t be taken as offence. Once the advice is given it belongs to them to do with what they want.

As regards ‘not being polite enough’. What i wrote was

There are some threads / posters that i won’t engage on now because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude. I accept that they don’t want the advice, no point keep popping back up and repeating it.

What’s not clear from “some threads / posters” is that it’s 98% threads that i’m just out of now because it’s clear my advice isn’t wanted; and very few actual posters that i won’t engage with. There are a couple though.

Back to the present analogy – the receiver that says ‘thanks, but it doesn’t really fit with my decor, would you mind if i took it back and swapped for something else’ vs ‘Why the **** have you bought me this. What a hideous thing!’ – you don’t need to be eloquent and charming to understand why the second response makes me unwilling to buy you another present.

Not even a porcelain poppy?

Who wants to be associated with all that shit?

That probably explains why Mark doesn’t want STW to be a forum-oriented business. Lots of people on this thread seem to have a problem with that though. 🤷‍♂️

I feel for Mark because in his position I’d want to chuck the forum in a skip and walk away but he can’t, his business is tied to it. As a user I love the forum but it’s easy for me, I just look at the bits I like with no obligation to deal with the bits I don’t.

I feel for Mark because in his position I’d want to chuck the forum in a skip and walk away but he can’t, his business is tied to it.

Most jobs are like that – they’d be great if it weren’t for the pesky customers! 🙂

As a user I love the forum but it’s easy for me, I just look at the bits I like with no obligation to deal with the bits I don’t

The problem is, if you don’t allow all the other garbage bits, people don’t come to the forum. This place and others like it are great because they allow talk about life, politics, stuff, even if 50% of the other lot don’t want to read it, it’s all content and brings people back time and time again.

The Guardian relied on print and print is dead.

Wikipedia set up a free model and realised that at some point they had to monetise to survive.

2 brilliant cautionary tales for STW…………

I see two media organisations that distribute information, that can be accessed for free, and also ask the users for support. The word donation is used, but it is also an exchange of goods/services. If you give the guardian money, they will give you news, opinions, recipes, travelogs etc and a better online experience. A bit like STW.

Print is not dead… vinyl is not dead, books are not dead. There are now other ways to consume the same information. So, if you write a book, magazine or record a wonderful one track prog rock triple album that conjures up imagery of turbo colourful space travel via the medium of feedback and powertools (for example)… the creative production is still required. You would then distribute it via all media channels that are available and viable. Write a book: serialise it, kinder it, print it, audio book it… Print is still part of the media mix.

Holy smokes people theres some real nasty stuff in here.

I personally agree with solarider on a lot of his points. Heres my thoughts. I apologise if they are not nice.

Paying to be a member doesnt make you better or worse than those that dont (although it appears there is an argument for worse based on some peoples approach)

I dont like the begging letters that seem all too frequent these days. It sounds like its all going to fold at any minute which makes me worried. it makes me think its not sustainable and the people running it are just sitting it out until they can fold it / sell it and retire.

There seems to be a significant number of visitors to the site that are not subscribers. Why is that? Is that just the market is saturated and the other members are actually a figment of our imagination? I dont know. But i do think that asking the existing subscribers to donate is both crass and short sighted. There clearly needs to be some input from a funding perspective and being propped up by goodwill donations wont work long term.

There needs to be either additional new members or a reduction in running costs it seems. Clearly the former is more favorable. what brings them in? better content?

There seems to be a bit of an issue with the singletrack identity? snow, tech? great in theory but if its alienating your core base then you need to think about it. Or is it time to be a tech mag? You cant be all things to all people.

I dont expect you to tell us but there needs to be a 1,3,5, 10 year plan i would have thought?

I do agree about the community aspect keeping it all going. Although i think this allows STW to publish sub par content as opposed to caving champions of the brand.

However keep up the good work chaps and chapesses 🙂

I dont like the begging letters that seem all too frequent these days.

We’re back to the Guardian and Wikipedia again. 😉

One thing that I don’t think has been mentioned… if people really want the forum/website to be more “transactional” and for there to be fewer requests for voluntary financial “support” (optional subscribing, donations, overpaying, using the shop)… do you want more content locked away and some forum functionality to be reduced for those that do not pay? The “everyone can use this freely” approach and the requests for voluntary support tend to go hand in hand.

Charlie – thanks for your input. Genuinely refreshing and measured.

A lot has been said already about a circular debate. I have personally received and acted on the feedback to respect that others might not agree with my thoughts and move on. I appreciate that either practically or philosophically we won’t agree on everything. I do somewhat regret that me ‘going on a bit’ might have diminished the validity of some of what I have offered up, but it doesn’t feel from the responses that I am a party of 1.

The difference between my view and yours is that I am not relying on you taking onboard my feedback for my income and the income of the people that I employ. You on the other hand need enough people to agree with you and put their money where their belief is.

I totally respect your view and your perspective is well put. Probably better put than any other post here, and perhaps what was needed all along was a ‘message from the sponsor’ to keep some perspective and sensible debate. But I am not the one requesting a donation from you to help me to perpetuate my belief.

With respect, and like many others here I will continue to enjoy the parts of the STW experience that I enjoy and that you happen not to charge for. They are clunky, a bit old and not that user friendly but so’s my old Land Rover and it doesn’t make me want to abandon it. I happen not to value the bits that you want to charge for and I have concerns that your content is niche enough that there simply aren’t enough people willing to agree with you. I think it is a case of agreeing to disagree. Your belief in ‘the mag’ (in its many forms) relies on a sufficient income from sufficient like minded people. Right now given the 2 appeals in a relatively short time, that sufficiency seems to be lacking.

STW will roll the dice, the trolls will continue to troll, we’ll all continue to ride bikes and the world will still spin (unless the events in Moscow this morning play out, in which case we will all get a healthy dose of perspective!).

To me this is a hobby. A lifelong passion even. I hope that STW will continue to form a small part of that.

The Guardian relied on print and print is dead.

You should visit a newsagent or bookstore, you might be surprised by what you find….

FWIW

Hannah’s articles I’ve read on here in recent months on have been thought-provoking and got into some good subjects and issues, more of that sort of thing pls (and apologies if I’ve missed them before in the mag). I don’t get to read work/trade copies of the mag anymore so I’m signing up for it again and her articles are a big part of why. Plus ‘this’. KUTGW.

I dont like the begging letters that seem all too frequent these days.

+1 to what Kelvin says. I get asked by the guardian for money on a daily basis. It even reminds me how many articles I’ve read (too many!) for free. Given people moan on here about the odd Ad or clicking the accept cookies button, and how they don’t like being guilt-tripped about being free users, I doubt they’d take too kindly to being repeatedly asked for money like you get on the guardian and wikipedia.

It sounds like its all going to fold at any minute which makes me worried. it makes me think its not sustainable and the people running it are just sitting it out until they can fold it / sell it and retire.

Then don’t make assumptions and instead take what Mark says at face value. He’s been very clear why he’s pushing for more income, and it’s not to prevent anything folding or to enable any retirements. People may criticise various things about STW, but a lack of honesty and transparency from the people running the business is not one of them.

Footflaps, I’ll just leave this here.

National press ABCs: December distribution dive for freesheets Standard and City AM

That the Daily Mail is doing the least badly should be a source of national shame. Nevertheless, looking across the board, how many years of 30% decline would it take to reach 0? These aren’t subjective views trying to prompt an argument.

And those newsagents and bookshops full of stock? Don’t assume they are ripping up trees in any other way than destroying forests for paper. Take a look at the annual reports of any convenience store chain, high street newsagent and bookseller.

Like Charlie suggested, there’s still a niche market for print just like there’s a market for vinyl records but I don’t see too many Our Price, Virgin, Tower Records or HMV taking up the empty shops on most high streets. Niche yes, scalable to the extent that it needs to be? You decide.

I am not here to convince and I really hope that STW work this one out.

Here’s an idea that hasn’t been mentioned (not here, although it has in the past). The climbers (and many non-climbers) on here will be aware of https://www.ukclimbing.com . Now I’m not sure where it gets it’s money from (it’s not subscriptions), but it seems to me that it’s a good model for services that STW could perhaps provide. It has a route database, logbooks with practical feedback from climbers about how hard a climb is or reviews about a particular crag or location, and also an image gallery which can act as inspiration or give you an idea of what the climbing is like.

I know there are other websites such as trailforks doing similar for mountain biking, but they don’t do it very well IMO and have struggled to gain much traction in the UK. Of course there’s the ‘footpath problem’ to consider but there seems to be potential given STW’s user base. So my question would be how many people here would use such a service and perhaps even pay for it?

The idea of a route compendium in printed form has been mentioned in this thread.

I spend countless hours staring at the OS map looking for different routes and certainly when riding in unfamiliar places I still use some of the old (and I am talking 25+ years old!) MBUK and MBR pull out maps. Yes I am really old. Yes I started on a 26 inch wheeled fully rigid splatter Kona with a 150mm stem and 150mm wide bars and thumbies!

Maybe there’s something in that content, albeit I am sure it isn’t cheap to produce.

Blimey Daz, that almost sounded like a civilised convergent conversation. Let’s stop it quickly before anybody else notices and thinks we have gone soft……..

Now I’m not sure where it gets it’s money from (it’s not subscriptions)

They do have their supporters/subscription option neither of which hides adverts.
One which gives a couple more forum options at 20 quid
Second is that plus the rockfax digital subscription.

Their advertising model is very focussed though from outdoor companies rather than generic stuff.

There seems to be a significant number of visitors to the site that are not subscribers. Why is that?

Personally, its because the magazine isn’t relevant to me or my type of riding (last time I checked it was full of bike packing, riding in Mexico or something, grouptests of stuff that had been done to death already and articles written in the style of a C grade GCSE creative writing student – wasn’t sure if it was intentional or not) and the online stuff I can access free a million times over via pinkbike/youtube/facebook/personal blogs etc so I was simply not getting what I’d deem as vfm from my subscription so I let it lapse.

Not sure if its just the print media thing… magazines I used to buy religiously (not just biking mags, loads of car ones too) seem to have gone right down the pan in recent years – Performane VW being the best example. Used to be brilliant – now absolute dog sheet. The content just isn’t interesting and do I want to read about “news” that I’d read 2 months previously online? Magazines cost a fair whack to produce I assume (mention already of a 20% increase vs previous years to produce ST mag?) but personally, I’ll flick through them once or twice and then they go in the recycling. The flip side of that is that I’ve never once read a magazine online…

When all is said and done, we can debate channel, media, format, the forum, the classifieds blah blah blah. What really matters is whether you are producing content in whatever format you see fit that enough people want to pay for whether through donation, subscription, luncheon vouchers, PayPal, whatever. Not a pejorative statement but certainly something that a few people have questioned (and continue to do so as we fast approach page 11!).

The trails are full of middle aged blokes who should know better stealing a crafty couple of hours away from the stresses of family, work, life etc. They ain’t backpacking across the Himalayas and brewing coffee up K2 every Sunday morning. I don’t know what it is, but produce something that they want. I am sure your revenue issues will be solved! My God, it’s so obvious and simple. Why didn’t anybody else think of that?!!!! 😉

Maybe there’s something in that content, albeit I am sure it isn’t cheap to produce.

The two obstacles are the cost of building the services and the effort of compiling a suitable database of trails/routes and somehow overcome the legal hurdles of promoting trails which don’t have rights of access. The former is a straightforward one of how much the development and maintenance would cost and can it be raised? The second one is trickier. Trailforks and others use an open source model where it relies on riders to post routes, and that’s where it falls down IMO due to patchy coverage and out of date information (and it’s clunky website and app). That’s the bit where the STW community could be of use.

@ solarider, Singletrack have a YT channel with nearly 700 videos, it’s not difficult to search for this instead of incessantly banging away the same points. You make interesting observations but after a while the helpfulness erodes and it’s depressing to read.

Oops there I go again. Sorry. (Steps away from the phone).

And those newsagents and bookshops full of stock?

Book sales are actually doing rather well…..

Print Book Sales Statistics