It may have hit the fan in Ukraine – passenger jet shot down

apparently (bbcnews) its a well used air corridor and lots of planes use it all the time ernie
the ukranians warned eurocontrol that the rebels had been targeting their planes and the safe limit was raised to 31000ft, the plane was flying at 33000

Wall Street journal has reported the us have proof of ground to air missile firing.

the safe limit was raised to 31000ft

Strange if they knew that targets could be hit above that range.

does seem a huge error with hindsight, the BUKs have over twice that range apparently

ernie_lynch – Member

the safe limit was raised to 31000ft

Strange if they knew that targets could be hit above that range.

Yes, they can. Easily.

Actually far beyond 31,000 ft depending on the missile they used i.e. 9K37 can reach 82,000 ft at mach 4 speed. Even their 1966 missile can reach 36,000 ft at mach 2 speed.

According to Wiki.

I bet they are preparing for the impending Western fighter jets/spy planes/drones etc …

Russia’s pals shoot down passenger plane, giving America’s pals opportunity to attack Palestinians. It’s a **** up world 🙁

Incomplete list of nationals aboard

154 Dutch
27 Australians
23 Malaysians
11 Indonesians
Six UK nationals
Four Germans
Four Belgians
Three Philipinos
One Canadian

RIP

according to analysts on newsnight..

standard airline practice to overfly warzones at 35000 ft

and that a BUK would have to be supplied by Russia and require training to use

Dear Leader Putih.

Not cool man! Not cool!

Your rouge BUK zombie commander(s) just wiped your cool dude face on the floor.

Get him/them now! 😡

a BUK would have to be supplied by Russia and require training to use

Seemingly been in service for some years with Ukranian armed forces, and being upgraded after reliability problems

http://news.kievukraine.info/2008/10/ukraine-air-defense-missiles-fail-in.html

And it seems theres some history:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/12/russia.israel

Dear Leader Putih,

You need to get rid of all your thick maggot brain rouge zombies.

This bunch of stoopid zombies really needs to be culled immediately.

You can send them to M’sia or Indonesia for culling if you wish or you can forget selling more SUKOIs to that region.

and that a BUK would have to be supplied by Russia and require training to use

Stolen from a Ukrainian anti-air base. The rebels admitted it a few days ago and it’s been photographed in Donetsk. Operators likely not trained very well.

the safe limit was raised to 31000ft

Strange if they knew that targets could be hit above that range.

That’s what I don’t get, one of their transports was shot down well out of MANPAD range a few days back. They knew there was something else going on, why set the safe altitude at 31000 feet when SAM’s that have that kind of reach usually extend well beyond that altitude.

Most likely a story of complete incompetence. Going to ignore the news now for a bit and read happier news on reddit.

I was on a malaysia airlines plane that took the same flight path only 2 weeks ago. This one:

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh3/#37b8a60

Really hits home when it could have been you that was on the plane.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html

Supposedly an intercepted rebel phone call. One of the rebel commanders ends the conversation saying that the airliner must have been carry spies, stupid ****.

Nobody is flying through that zone now apart from Ukrainian own flights.

Flight Radar .com

The Americans seem to be implying pretty strongly this was an act of the Russian seperatists of whom I doubt very much could shoot down a plane without very close support of Russian military.

Putin is bonkers IMO.

There might be very good reasons for pinning the blame on the separatists, rather than directly on the Russian military, not least that it allows the Russians a bit of space to manoeuvre, rather than backing them into a corner and makes providing support for the separatists unacceptable internationally.

Putin is bonkers IMO.

It’s very unlikely that Putin was involved in the targeting and bringing down of a commercial airline, he was probably busy dealing with other stuff. It’s also unlikely that whoever is responsible did it deliberately. The most likely explanation is that it was misidentified and that it was a “mistake”. Mental health issues probably didn’t come into it.

I think he means in the colloquial sense ernie and I think many would agree that Putin has a unique perspective in reality not shared by the rest of the world.

Interesting to hear Russia saying it was ukraines fault as it happened over their air space ….somewhat ignoring the fact Ukraine do not control that area and it was most likely committed by Russians armed and supplied by Russians
Going to be a some repercussions here for sure.

“They shouldn’t be flying in a war zone” which is true.

TBH if a transport plane was shot down earlier in the day at the same height. Someone on both sides needs to takepart of the blame.

Why was international airspace allowed over that part? Well its hindsight now but someone on the Ukranian Government side should have immediately flagged up to international air control?!

Really hits home when it could have been you that was on the plane.

@hex, yes that must feel very strange

It’s very unlikely that Putin was involved in the targeting and bringing down of a commercial airline

@ernie, It’s very likely that Putin was involved in decision to arm the pro-Russian rebels including any decision to give them missiles.

The West has to take much more action than economic sanctions on Russia.

On routing – for a long time I recall the flights I took to Asia where diverted around Iraq. I am somewhat surprised to day the least that after the shooting down of the military transporter with a missile by the pro-Russian rebels that flights where not diverted.

Transport plane was not shot down on the same day Hora. But a few days before at an altitude of 21000 feet I think.

Russians armed and supplied by Russians

It appears to be documented record that two weeks ago the rebels seized a Ukrainian air defence barracks, near Donesk , where they claimed at the time to have seized a BUK Sam system.

System is in common use with militaries in the region, who mostly have national service/conscription, so its an inevitability that there are people around who know how to use it.

Finally, the ‘intercept’ tape aparrently refers to kazaks, and there is a large ethnic Ukrainian but russian sympathetic population in Kazakhstan.

The West has to take much more action than economic sanctions on Russia.

Economic measures will work, if they can now get the Chinese to worry about air traffic to and from them, they may also help strangle the Russians.

Stolen from a Ukrainian anti-air base. The rebels admitted it a few days ago and it’s been photographed in Donetsk. Operators likely not trained very well.

A Ukrainian on the today program said all Ukrainian ground to air missiles were accounted for and it must have been supplied by the Russians.

Also very concerning that the flight recorder is apparently being transported by rebels and on it’s way to Moscow. Seems that a fully independent investigation in to this is highly unlikely.

I think he means in the colloquial sense ernie and I think many would agree that Putin has a unique perspective in reality not shared by the rest of the world

Both senses, poor impulse control, not good in a world leader.

Interesting to hear Russia saying it was ukraines fault as it happened over their air space ….somewhat ignoring the fact Ukraine do not control that area and it was most likely committed by Russians armed and supplied by Russians

He is not even denying it, just saying its a consequence of what others have done.

It’s very unlikely that Putin was involved in the targeting and bringing down of a commercial airline, he was probably busy dealing with other stuff.

The buck stops with the boss..

As already said, some slightly implausible but potentially possibly explanation will develop that allows us all to save face but Putin will have sent a message and 300 people are dead.

Also very concerning that the flight recorder is apparently being transported by rebels and on it’s way to Moscow. Seems that a fully independent investigation in to this is highly unlikely.

Apparently the second flight recorder has been recovered by the rescue team – so no doubt the ‘records’ from each recorder will vary wildly, giving each side more time to continue blaming each other for bringing it down until the whole story blows over…

I think in this case the flight recorder isn’t so relevant. The US (for sure) and probably European military will have detailed spy satellite footage of the area. The fact the rebels posted on Twitter about shooting down a transport plane is pretty damning.

In this case, would the flight recorders add much to any investigation?

Won’t they jsut confirm that the plane came apart in mid air?

I think he means in the colloquial sense ernie ……

The suggestion appeared to be that the downing of a civilian airline was a deliberate act authorized by a mentally unstable leader.

It is extremely unlikely that the shooting down of the airline was a deliberate act, whoever did it, and there is no evidence that Putin is “bonkers”.

The whole process in which large parts of Eastern Ukraine broke away from the control of Kiev was a remarkably bloodless one. That changed when Kiev decided to retake the areas by force. It is reasonable to assume that there will be considerable more bloodshed.

The obvious way forward if further bloodshed and tragic events like this are to be avoided is to work for a negotiated solution in which the right of self-determination of all those concerned is fully recognized.

This is much more of a case than ‘Putin is bonkers’.

The obvious way forward if further bloodshed and tragic events like this are to be avoided, is to work for a negotiated solution in which the right of self-determination of all those concerned is fully recognized.

You can’t have large swathes of a country just deciding they want to break away. History is littered with civil wars as a result of these sorts of disputes. Russia signed an agreement that it would not interfere in the Ukraine, it reneged on this agreement after it’s “chosen” leader was ousted.

I think in this case the flight recorder isn’t so relevant.

That’s true, the concern is more that something like a flight recorder can be taken away from an investigation site and sent on it’s way to Moscow before anyone else even knows about it.

In this case, would the flight recorders add much to any investigation?

I guess it depends on whether they record radar activity too – so any incoming missile trajectory could be evaluated and used as evidence.

I have no idea what *is* recorded though.

You can’t have large swathes of a country just deciding they want to break away.

I thought you could ?

You can’t have large swathes of a country just deciding they want to break away.

why not ? worked really well for the Czechs and Slovaks.

The obvious way forward if further bloodshed and tragic events like this are to be avoided is to work for a negotiated solution in which the right of self-determination of all those concerned is fully recognized.

Yep, that’s worked really well with the Russians in the recent past.

The Ukrainians do seem to bear a lot of blame, giving a platform to Nazis, making stupid announcements about Russian language, etc. but that doesn’t mean it’s OK for every **** with an AK47 to go round making up the rules as they go along, declaring independence, shooting down airliners and who knows what else.

why not ? worked really well for the Czechs and Slovaks.

But not so much for the rest of the former Yugoslavia

Yep, that’s worked really well with the Russians in the recent past.

You mean like when Ukraine secured its independence from Russia ?

Putin is bonkers IMO.

It’s very unlikely that Putin was involved in the targeting and bringing down of a commercial airline, he was probably busy dealing with other stuff. It’s also unlikely that whoever is responsible did it deliberately. The most likely explanation is that it was misidentified and that it was a “mistake”. Mental health issues probably didn’t come into it.

While all that is fair enough, he is completely bonkers though, isn’t he? He’s absolutely hat-stand! All that GGGGGGRRRRR look-at-my-abs, I’m off to wrestle a shark, then shoot a bear, who wants an arm-wrestle business. Which would all probably be ok, if he just took a deep breath, admitted he’s as gay as Freddie Mercury, and just put some pumping Euro-disco on, and snorted some poppers.

And the unfortunate ‘mistake’ could probably be avoided by the simple act of not supplying massively advanced technical weapons systems to nutters, who you have little control over. As the Americans found out in Afghanistan.