It may have hit the fan in Ukraine – passenger jet shot down

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  • It may have hit the fan in Ukraine – passenger jet shot down
  • Greybeard
    Member

    The flight was apparently only at 300m

    Where does that come from? Everything I’ve seen says 10,000m.

    The missiles fired from a BUK have semi-active homing, ie, the launcher sends out radar, it bounces off the plane and the missile homes onto it. If the missile was fired at a low level aircraft (eg, helicopter) and missed, it would keep looking for a target to home onto. I don’t know if it has any kind of range limiter, but hitting a civilian plane that happens to be lined up with a missed target is the kind of thing I’d expect when a missile launcher is operated by people who aren’t thoroughly trained in using it.

    konabunny
    Member

    Onboard were 100 AIDS researchers.

    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that a cure for AIDS is just around the corner, thus meaning that drug companies will lose millions they currently make on selling ‘make comfortable’ drugs?

    Is this suitably far-fetched?
    Yes, and it’s also total bollocks. Whoever makes a drug that cures or inoculates against AIDS will make a ton of money. Sickness is bad for capitalism.

    zokes
    Member

    tpbiker – Member
    I think this may be a new low in STW threads. Some of you should be ashamed.

    that is all…

    You’re not joking. First non-bike thread I’ve read in nearly three months. I suppose I had the naïve hope that things on here might have changed whilst I’d been on holiday. Obviously not 😕

    Moses
    Member

    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that a cure for AIDS is just around the corner, thus meaning that drug companies will lose millions they currently make on selling ‘make comfortable’ drugs?

    Yes, because those researchers will have sent the transcripts of their talks ahead of them, and all their notes will be stored electronically so their work could be reproduced easily. And all the pharmas would know this. That’s quite apart from it being a stupid scenario, many pharmas are also looking for a cure. What the hell is a “comfortable” drug?

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    I would imagine a B-52 or Sentinel would look pretty similar

    What would a B-52 be doing over the Ukraine let alone at 32k feet, the spams planning to carpet bomb or nuke Donetsk?

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Junkyard – lazarus

    Forgive the goodwin but Hitler also won elections,
    You can be a baddy and still be popular with your electorate.

    Actually Hitler didn’t win elections, at least not until he had imprisoned the opposition, and there isn’t any evidence that his personal approval ratings were to the level of Putin’s.

    But I get your point. Unfortunately you don’t get mine.

    When I said :

    some people like to portray Putin as some sort of hated and mad dictator which, if only they could, the Russian people would like to rid themselves of

    I was countering the claim that Putin is deeply unpopular the Russian people. He isn’t, he is far and away more popular with his people than any equivalent western leader. Russians like living under his presidency. That is not however to pass moral judgement on him, it just recognizes a simple fact.

    In the same way that I think the Chinese government represents a corrupt self-serving and brutal criminal elite, but I am perfectly prepared to accept that it enjoys widespread support among the Chinese people. I have little doubt that the majority of Chinese are more supportive of their government than Brits are of theirs.

    It is perfectly reasonable to assume that many ethnic Russians, wherever they live, prefer Putin’s Russia to the EU. Perhaps someone ought to ask them ? But then of course the EU doesn’t like to operate like that unless it can be sure of the outcome.

    Western bourgeois democracy……it’s such a good idea when people vote correctly, eh ?

    zokes
    Member

    Yes, because those researchers will have sent the transcripts of their talks ahead of them,

    I suspect most would have been frantically writing their talks as disaster struck…

    and all their notes will be stored electronically so their work could be reproduced easily.

    Their current work, yes. Their future work, clearly not. It is undoubtedly a big loss for the field of AIDS research, on top of the immediate human tragedy.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Greybeard wrote:

    The missiles fired from a BUK have semi-active homing, ie, the launcher sends out radar, it bounces off the plane and the missile homes onto it. If the missile was fired at a low level aircraft (eg, helicopter) and missed, it would keep looking for a target to home onto. I don’t know if it has any kind of range limiter, but hitting a civilian plane that happens to be lined up with a missed target is the kind of thing I’d expect when a missile launcher is operated by people who aren’t thoroughly trained in using it.

    Do you have knowledge of BUK? Because that seems an extraordinarily dangerous way for such a missile system to work – surely it is tergeted before it is fired and doesn’t go looking randomly for any other flying target if it loses contact with the first one?

    Premier Icon maccruiskeen
    Subscriber

    Their current work, yes. Their future work, clearly not. It is undoubtedly a big loss for the field of AIDS research, on top of the immediate human tragedy.

    Indeed, the future of this work is going to be in someone’s head, not in their briefcase. There were people who had been thinking about treatment and cure for as long as aids has had a name. The eureka moment is going to happen in a head like that.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Mark wrote:

    Yes, because those researchers will have sent the transcripts of their talks ahead of them,

    I suspect most would have been frantically writing their talks as disaster struck…[/quote]

    Presenting at a conference? Maybe it’s different for medical research, but all the conferences I’ve presented at papers had to be submitted in advance.

    Yes, and it’s also total bollocks. Whoever makes a drug that cures or inoculates against AIDS will make a ton of money. Sickness is bad for capitalism.

    My post was tongue firmly in cheek, in response to some of the other rubbish spouted above.

    Calm down dear. 😉

    What the hell is a “comfortable” drug?

    A drug that controls the symptoms, but doesn’t provide a cure. Essentially it lengthens life, as long as you continue taking it. A drug that pharma companies love as there’s a consistent – and almost unending – demand, unless the disease is cured.

    There’s probably a better description, but I couldn’t think of one while writing the post.

    zokes
    Member

    Presenting at a conference? Maybe it’s different for medical research, but all the conferences I’ve presented at papers had to be submitted in advance.

    Dunno as I’m in environmental, rather than medical research. But as every big conference has both mandated talks be submitted in advance, but also allowed updated versions to be uploaded the day before, it wouldn’t surprise me if the laptops were open…. I am talking about the ppt here though, rather than the paper for the proceedings though, which i guess would be where the real science is (if it’s not already out in a proper journal)

    Where does that come from? Everything I’ve seen says 10,000m.

    That’s my fault. I glanced a headline but didn’t read the text.

    This isn’t the actual article (which was on the BBC) but you get the drift: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-mh17-flying-just-above-restricted-airspace

    Junkyard
    Member

    Unfortunately you don’t get mine.

    True and guilty as charged . Sorry

    Western bourgeois democracy……it’s such a good idea when people vote correctly, eh ?

    Only if it is a meritocracy 😉

    konabunny
    Member

    My post was tongue firmly in cheek

    Apparently there is still no pharmaceutical cure for the Edinburgh Defence nor its newest strain, the Isle of Wight Retrojustification.

    Moses
    Member

    Pimp, the pharma conspiracy theory is rubbish. The drug industry is not monolithic, it’s hundreds of companies competing against each other to find cures for illness. If one company has a stabilising drug, then another produces an actual cure, then the first drug sales will plummet.
    Drug discovery programmes are rarely individuals anyway – they are teams working together, sharing ideas. Those that remained in Europe will be able to continue the same work.

    chewkw
    Member

    willard – Member
    And that is apart from the Kims being completely bonkers and starving their own population to keep them cowed and suppressed.

    I rather he contains his own people as he wish. Put it in another way if a person wants to be contained then nothing can help him/her. In this case his population can either fight or die or live in containment but some will perish while in containment. If more people spill out from that country then more resources are needed to be used to feed them. His population is slowly depleting if they continue to starve. Yes, I don’t like the nuclear testing underground but their fight with their neighbours are merely a small matter in the grand scheme of the world.

    I don’t support any of the world leaders or Dear Leaders I only see them as they are …

    What really pisses me off now are those half-wit zombie maggots with their half-wits ZM commanders that down MH17 because they are the ones responsible for making the decisions and pulling the triggers.

    From now on that region will become a proxy war and Dear Leader Putih just opened a new front because of his incompetent half-wits ZM commanders. I mean apart from the trouble in Ukraine they are already fighting some bearded fanatics and if they are that good why can’t they wipe them out? They may kill one or two of the bearded leaders but that is peanuts by comparison to new front.

    Argue as much as they like but they are adding more trouble without solving …

    😡

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Pimp, the pharma conspiracy theory is rubbish. The drug industry ……

    If the conspiracy theory that the drug industry organized the shooting down of a civilian airline is rubbish then why are you giving it any sort of credence by presenting a counterargument ?

    The suggestion that drug companies organized the destruction of a civilian airline and the deaths of all of those on-board is too preposterous to warrant any sort of debate.

    Stupid conspiracy theories survive because people allow themselves to be draw into treating them as if they have an ounce of creditability. The more you give conspiracy theories any sort of credibility the more they will appear.

    chewkw
    Member

    Cull those that are involved in pulling the BUK trigger then you can argue the conspiracy theories as much as you like. 🙄

    CountZero
    Member

    I noticed a quote from Putin that seems to show he’s not quite understood the implications of what he’s said:
    “The state over who’s territory this occurred bears responsibility”
    Hmmm, doesn’t the territory over which this occurred call itself an independent entity, owing allegiance to the Russian Republic?
    An entity that says it’s completely independent from the Ukrainian state?
    An entity that gets it’s support and weapons directly from Russia?
    In which case, according to Putin, Ukraine could not have been responsible; he can’t have it both ways.

    chewkw
    Member

    CountZero – Member

    I noticed a quote from Putin that seems to show he’s not quite understood the implications of what he’s said:
    “The state over who’s territory this occurred bears responsibility”

    You are not supposed to understand them actually they are not to suppose to understand themselves either.

    Try not to make sense of what they say coz it’s pointless they know exactly well their militia shot down MH17.

    Premier Icon ratadog
    Subscriber

    Indeed, the future of this work is going to be in someone’s head, not in their briefcase. There were people who had been thinking about treatment and cure for as long as aids has had a name. The eureka moment is going to happen in a head like that.

    This.

    rossatease
    Member

    I don’t think the drugs Industry theory has any legs, some of our local security ‘experts’ were thinking more likely CIA black Ops to put pressure on Putin, they are almost certainly active over there.

    CountZero
    Member

    rossatease – Member
    I don’t think the drugs Industry theory has any legs, some of our local security ‘experts’ were thinking more likely CIA black Ops to put pressure on Putin, they are almost certainly active over there.

    Unless those CIA spooks are called Igor Bezler, (rebel commander in Donetsk People’s Republic), or Nikolay Kozitsin, (Cossack commander), or Vasili Geranin, (Kremlin colonel), then it’s highly unlikely they had anything whatsoever to do with it.
    Look for the telephone transcripts of calls between ‘Major’ and ‘Greek’, two militiamen, and calls between the people named above, all of whom seem to be absolutely complicit in what happened.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Look for the telephone transcripts of calls between…

    The fake telephone transcripts are obviously all part of the conspiracy.

    I don’t think you fully understand how conspiracy theories work.

    Apparently there is still no pharmaceutical cure for the Edinburgh Defence nor its newest strain, the Isle of Wight Retrojustification.

    Now you’re just making things up.

    🙄

    Pimp, the pharma conspiracy theory is rubbish.

    Yes, it is. I made it up to emphasise the daft and hypothetical nature of theories being pedalled by others.

    The suggestion that drug companies organized the destruction of a civilian airline and the deaths of all of those on-board is too preposterous to warrant any sort of debate.

    I know, which is exactly why I said it, although judging by the reaction it worryingly appears to have merit.

    Pass me my tinfoil hat would you?

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Seems reasonably clear cut – but cue the geopolitical games in terms of who will be ultimately made responsible. In the meantime, more gawpish and intrusive media coverage. Sad.

    Desperate event. RIP all those involved – may your families be given and achieve some peace.

    flanagaj
    Member

    This is an awful tragedy, and along with many other on hear my thoughts go out to all those affected. Beyond comprehension how something like this can happen.

    What I find staggering is how a bunch of pro Russian militia pr!cks can be policing the area and restricting access. If I was the PM, I’d send in special forces to take the muppets out so that the aviation authorities could gain the proper access.

    Be interesting to see what Putin’s response to that would be. I think the West need to severe all ties with Russia. And as to France supplying military helicopters to them …

    CountZero
    Member

    I don’t think you fully understand how conspiracy theories work.

    I understand perfectly well how conspiracy theories work, thank you, which is why I ignore most of what is clearly the work of under-employed fruitcakes on the Internet.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    The missiles fired from a BUK have semi-active homing, ie, the launcher sends out radar, it bounces off the plane and the missile homes onto it. If the missile was fired at a low level aircraft (eg, helicopter) and missed, it would keep looking for a target to home onto. I don’t know if it has any kind of range limiter, but hitting a civilian plane that happens to be lined up with a missed target is the kind of thing I’d expect when a missile launcher is operated by people who aren’t thoroughly trained in using it.

    Wrong, semi-actives don’t work like that. Only fire and forget active missiles look for the target, semi actives will only hit the target that the radar is locked on to. I know this because of air cadets and flying too many simulators as a teen.

    Semi-actives have to have the target painted by the radar, when a continuous as opposed to a doppler beam is focussed onto the target. The missile only looks for the returns from that focussed lock.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Irrespective of the causes of this incident, the rebels are truly showing what shits they are in how they’re handling the aftermath.

    CountZero
    Member

    Irrespective of the causes of this incident, the rebels are truly showing what shits they are in how they’re handling the aftermath.

    Openly preventing emergency officials from accessing the wreckage, taking bodies away without authority, looting personal possesions.
    Lovely caring, humanitarian people.

    Premier Icon bigjim
    Subscriber

    A colleague from a european office and his young family were on the plane, kind of brought it home a bit, can’t imagine how unbearable it must be.

    popstar
    Member

    I guess its easy to point a finger at eastern ukranians converting them from ukranians into russians.

    Guess same should be done to scotish. Then bomb the shait out of them for good measure and sell their land to multinationals for resources.

    Granted , Ukraine spectacle didn’t go to plan West wanted so now it looks world is not unipolar any more.

    Russia, China, India, Iran, South America’s messing around and all those BRICS and shait happening around.

    It looks very dark times ahead indeed, I’m worried my fuel bills will sky rocket and hope to afford to buy some food if any monies were left to spend.

    I say leave alone those pesky Ukranians to sort themselves out. Crimea s gone, try to unite whatever has left.

    andyl
    Member

    Back to crash itself we have:

    Photos and video released of the BUK launcher allegedly in the area the missile was fired from.

    Photos and video of what could be the BUK launcher on the back of a low loader being hastily moved back to Russia.

    Blocking of anyone trying to get to the wreckage and bodies.

    Black boxes removed and location unknown.

    Looting of wreckage.

    Bodies being left, some being moved to a railway carriage.

    Some wreckage being moved, ruining any investigation.

    UN voting today on what to do.

    There should be a system already in place for a plane crash or similar even in a war zone or disaster zone. The UN should already be there and have the site secured and an investigation underway, not only as it involves an incident involving victims from UN members over a UN country that is not able to deal with it themselves due to war but as the people responsible are also members of the UN.

    ninfan
    Member

    Photos and video released of the BUK launcher allegedly in the area the missile was fired from.

    Along with photo’s of the BUK launcher when it was allegedly seized from the Ukranian base that was taken, and an interfax press release from June 30th where Ukranian officials confirmed a BUK launcher was at the base, but claimed it was ‘not operational’ (no definition of that, so it could easily have been engine/mechanical issues)

    http://interfax.co.uk/newsinf.asp?y=2013&m=9&d=23&pg=4&id=517080

    Photos and video of what could be the BUK launcher on the back of a low loader being hastily moved back to Russia.

    Well, there are numerous photo’s of one moving round on a civilian truck, seemingly both before and after the shootdown, we have no confirmation of where the video was taken, other than a claim that it was near the Russian border.

    Blocking of anyone trying to get to the wreckage and bodies.

    One minute they’ve being criticised for not securing the area, the next criticised for not letting people near it – it seems that the Malaysian investigation team are still sitting in Kiev, waiting for the Ukranian govt. to give them clearance to go to the area.

    Black boxes removed and location unknown.

    Apparently in Donetsk, where the separatist administration have said they are waiting to give them to international investigators, but haven’t met them yet (One can imagine a significant level of to and fro with the Ukranian government saying they have to go through them as they are the legitimate government for the area, and the rebels saying no they are not, and the international teams must approach them directly, the sort of endless round in circles officious posturing by both sides that marks the whole region)

    Looting of wreckage.

    That would never happen here, would it? Although record shows us there were several arrests for looting after Lockerbie.

    Bodies being left, some being moved to a railway carriage.

    Just how quickly can you gear up a recovery operation for that many bodies? let alone in what is effectively a war zone. What facilities would you expect to have in place to receive that many bodies ? IIRC in lockerbie they used the local ice rink as a temporary morgue, in the middle of nowhere rural Ukraine, a refrigerated train doesn’t seem an unreasonable solution.

    The vice video (and I cant stress enough how good the vice dispatches have been regards this whole conflict) seems to show local people acting with a fair bit of compassion and respect, in tragic and difficult circumstances

    Some wreckage being moved, ruining any investigation.

    As I understand it, they’ve been moving wreckage to look for bodies. Again we need to look at this in the light of being a war zone, if you watch the Vice video’s you’ll see some desperate stories of civilians being killed by Ukranian artillery (and no doubt rebels the too) – there’s a lot of tragedy in that part of the world at the moment.

    UN voting today on what to do.

    Would be good if they forced a ceasefire between the Ukranians and Rebels, for the good of everyone in the region.

    There should be a system already in place for a plane crash or similar even in a war zone or disaster zone. The UN should already be there and have the site secured and an investigation underway, not only as it involves an incident involving victims from UN members over a UN country that is not able to deal with it themselves due to war but as the people responsible are also members of the UN.]

    Agreed, but what country wants to put their troops or investigators in the middle of a war zone?

    andyl
    Member

    You can imagine that on the whole the people who live in the area are trying to do what they can and do so respectfully (that certainly shows in the videos and photos) but it’s the actions of the people that are responsible that are the concern (looting, destroying evidence, etc)

    Yes it is a daunting task to sort out what to do with bodies and wreckage. I was surprised to see they did have the railway carriage already.

    It all seems like the initial knee-jerk reaction was “f***, we’ve really screwed up here. How can be hide it/shift the blame etc etc….but they’ve not got any escape and now it’s all down to damage limitation to protect the evidence that can be protected and found.

    It is all too easy for them to now claim they were protecting evidence by removing it. Some may be true, other complete BS.

    It’s horrible thing to happen 🙁

    Pigface
    Member

    Bloke I work with who has a Russian girlfriend is convinced that the Ukranian forces shot the plane down as they were after Putin who was allegedly flying in a plane near by. He also says that the pro russian guys are being massacred and women and children in the area are being rounded up and shot. No idea if this is true but I guess it is what his girlfriend is being told from the homeland.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    All the Russian press are singing from the same hymn sheet. It was them there Ukranians in Kiev wot dun it guv! And it has nothing whatsoever to do with the bare-chested crocodile wrestler

    I’m sure this universal point of view has nothing at all to do with the amount of Russian journalists who’ve met with unfortunate accidents when contradicting the line from the Kremlin in recent years

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    Bloke I work with who has a Russian girlfriend is convinced that the Ukranian forces shot the plane down as they were after Putin who was allegedly flying in a plane near by. He also says that the pro russian guys are being massacred and women and children in the area are being rounded up and shot. No idea if this is true but I guess it is what his girlfriend is being told from the homeland.

    @Pigface thanks for sharing but that’s the propaganda machine in full flow. There isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that Putin would be flying over that warzone and as for the women and children that’s pure diversion story.

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