Is the term ‘jungle drums’ racist?

There was a (now banned I think) poster on here who would actively try and find racism where it simply didn’t exist.

I can’t remember now whether she was banned or left of her own volition in the end. I think she might well have been banned but can’t be sure without checking back.

Funny thing with that: she launched a vendetta against me on here along with a parallel smear campaign on social media. When I eventually convinced her that she’d got the wrong end of the stick – I’d ill-conceivedly used provocative language to try to demonstrate just how offensive someone else was being with their choice of words – she agreed and apologised to me via forum PM whilst still going on a public tirade over on Twitter and CC:ing in half the Western world.

This thread is now 4th Google result for ‘is the term jungle drums racist?’. The other three IIRC are all from one unsettled dispute back in 2011.

I may have to submit a competing definition at Urban Dictionary. Try and get it to top result. Something like:

Jungle Drums – A self-referencing dispute over wether or not it is ‘racist’ to dispute the ongoing dispute of the term ‘jungle drums’

Person 1; ‘I heard it on the jungle drums that the term ‘jungle drums’ is racist?
Person2: ‘Now say that you’re sorry’.
(filer à l’anglaise)
Person 3: (Googles – ‘is the term jungle drums racist?’)

… Thinking about it I’m pretty sure she was banned, because I seem to remember her posting about it on Twitter as another example of how we were all screaming racists picking on her as a minority, or trying to silence her or something.

I interestingly enough. You haven’t actually apologised there.

Bugger off 🙂

I seem to remember her posting about it on Twitter as another example of how we were all screaming racists picking on her as a minority, or trying to silence her or something.

It seemed like she had been through a lot of bad shit and her coping mechanism was lashing out. Felt very sorry for her to be honest.

Went into work this morning and first thing I done was see if he was around so I could have a chat with the guy. He was at one of the other depots though so done the next best thing and gave him a call. He never answered so I left a message saying I’d try him nearer lunchtime or if he could text me when he was available we could try and meet up later. Got no response so gave him another call later on. He answered this time and I tried explaining that if I upset him either with my comment, subsequent response or both then I was sorry, meant no harm or disrespect, and that I’d be happy to discuss further if he wanted to. He didn’t want to get into it. He informed me he had spoken to HR helpline that morning and logged a complaint against me of racist behaviour. I said ok, probably inappropriate for me to be speaking to you now then, let’s see how the process unfolds but happy to meet you anytime along with a third party if you want to resolve without going down formal route. He declined.

Late in the afternoon I received a call from my manager, he had been informed by HR of a complaint against me and that an initial fact finding investigation is to take place. The person nominated to carry out investigation will be in touch and send me the relevent details including the process/procedure this falls under. We discussed in detail what happened and whilst he wasn’t totally dismissive he told me not to lose any sleep over it and just cooperate with the investigation.

Was the talk of the depot all day which was a bit akward and I received a few calls of support from a couple of the other depots who had heard what happened. Although I fully admit I’m pissed off with the guy for going straight down the HR route he was getting a fair bit of stick in his absence which I did put a stop to so hope doesn’t turn nasty and resurface again tomorrow.

Anyway, I got plenty volunteers without even asking who were witness to the incident yesterday and who are willing to speak to the investigator to say they couldn’t see anything wrong with what I said and the guy severely over reacted. Will see what happens now with HR.

I’m quite a cluedo player to be fair so I can see things others miss.

It was clearly racist, the op knew full well that the offended chap was the whistle blower on his big deal, he then eye balled him and stated ‘jungle drums beat me to it’
Dissscusting.

Polite notice for his boss when he finds this thread- I made that up chief, no offense intended or implied so don’t expect an apology

Where there’s blame there’s a claim!

Fair play to you for trying to apologise but from the sound of it he’s going to have a worse time of it than you are. Sounds like your colleagues are closing ranks and you will get all the back up you need.

It also sounds like he’s going to get ostracised and screwed over every chance anyone gets.

hauled over the coals

Can we still say that?

Sorry to hear that OP. My take? Poor bastards. Both of you. Whole thing is a shitshow. Shame we get no context at all from the offended.

There’s always two sides to every story and we’re only getting one, but it sounds from that like he’s just a dick.

And sadly for him, it also sounds like it’s likely to backfire massively for him.

Word of warning OP – google the term ‘Jungle Drums Racist’ and this thread is the first hit at the top of page one. If I was in HR and wanted an idea if the phrase used was racist I’d be googling (if they are white; if black they would obviously know innately apparently). I don’t think you have said anything particularly negative nor have you named either the other party or the company but can’t imagine they will be massively happy.

An aside – if the phase was clearly up there as clearly a wrongun I can’t imagine a bunch of 80 odd sad sacks discussing it for 24 hours on a forum would make the worldwide top google hit quite so quickly.

Thanks for the warning. Never even considered the google effect, I did google it yesterday to see if there were many examples. I suspect quite few of my colleagues will have done the same today. I won’t add any more to the thread.

Google knows you visit here. So it returns more results from here to you.

she agreed and apologised to me via forum PM

Are you sure it was an apology because she posted what was definitely a non-apology apology on social media. Also an I agree with your decision which was definitely not an I agree with your decision.

It sounds rather extreme to me tbh. Just as you need to understand his position, he needs to understand yours. The HR route seems harsh.

Are you sure it was an apology because she posted what was definitely a non-apology apology on social media. Also an I agree with your decision which was definitely not an I agree with your decision.

It was as close as he was going to get. Some posters you can just smell the crazy.

She was one.

Are you sure it was an apology

This is what she said to me via PM. It seemed pretty unambiguous to me:

I’d like to apologise to you directly for the way in which I initially reacted to your post, I used foul and threatening language to make a standpoint and had I understood the perspective I’d have been a lot more respectful in my request to redact the word.
I’d also like to give you recognition and kudos for making an extremely poignant observation which has had such a positive outcome, you’ve made a wee corner of the (singletrack) world a better place.
Kind regards

… and then she continued to selectively quote C&P’ed screenshots out-of-context onto Twitter cc:ing in the likes of CRC, Wiggle, Road.cc and whoever else in the industry she could think of going “is this the sort of place you want to be associated with?”

As funkmasterp said, it seemed like she had a lot of unfortunate history and as I discussed with him directly at the time I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. But she went too far I’m afraid.

Ok

Union rep hat on

This is not a dismissal issue by a long way. At worst its a first warning and a fair outcome would be informal warning and counselling ie ” be careful with your language, learn from this, end of story with a note on file

Note to self ;

never join tj’s union.

Google knows you visit here. So it returns more results from here to you.

True. With Personalization turned off it drops to number 3.

A formal complaint has been made. Process will then be followed. There will be an investigation as to whether the OP has acted improperly (and I would argue that he hasn’t simply because even if the phrase is in fact deemed to be problematic, he used it totally innocently in ignorance of that) and it’ll either be acted upon accordingly or dropped. In the case of the latter I can’t see why any sort of warning would be appropriate.

Sorry – i was trying to be supportive of the OP stating I think it highly unlikely anything serious will come of it. Informal warning and counselling means diddly squat. Its just a way of the employer protecting themselves because if further incidents come to light they can be seen to have taken action and further action is easy to take

If I was his union rep I would of course be arguing for no action at all and could build a strong case

What do unions do when both the perpetrator and the victim are members? They can’t advocate for both sides?

What do unions do when both the perpetrator and the victim are members? They can’t advocate for both sides?

Only the accused requires representation , the complainants case is handled  by the company / organisation itself

HR and Social Responsibility/Impact teams almost exclusively run and staffed by white middle class women.

Hope they go easy on you.

Came in for the drum and bass thread, left via the back door of The Bullingdon.
Taken aback by how much self entitlement and arrogance seeps out of the wood-work after people have had a couple of drinks.

Well done to the OP for going to significant lengths to reach out to the guy to apologize/discuss

He informed me he had spoken to HR helpline that morning and logged a complaint against me of racist behaviour

This, frankly, boils my piss.

Accidentally using a well known phrase (in context) that some consider to have racist undertones is categorically not “racist behavior”. At worst, it’s being ignorant that a (relatively) well known phrase, even when used in a non-racist context, might be viewed as racist. Obviously it depends on the language in question and the context – some language/context is unequivocally racist, but this (as we have proved here) certainly isn’t.

Would be different if his complaint had been about overhearing somebody using “racist language” in the workplace – which is what we have all been arguing about discussing on here.

a fair outcome would be informal warning and counselling ie ” be careful with your language, learn from this, end of story with a note on file

I agree that this would be fair. However, I would also hope that the complainant would receive a similar counselling, warning of the dangers of unfairly labeling colleagues as racists.

This thread took an unexpected turn with the OP’s update; at face value, the complainant is on weak ground so I hope the OP has not been economical with the truth.
Based on the way he/she has commented I think he/she has been transparent.
I really hope the complaint is thrown out quickly as it doesn’t appear to have any merit or substance.
Was tempted to join the debate but, other than a single comment that using the terminology wasn’t racist, I’ve watched from the sidelines; I think several posters should re-read what they posted and have a word with themselves.
Hope HR aren’t right-on, woke or whatever other epithet is attached to those gone overboard on being PC and empathetic (suggest we drop the first two letters).
Waits for criticism for being non-PC, white/male/stale etc.
Good luck OP.

Having this thread discovered by HR or an investigating manager wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world. I don’t think that any reasonable social media policy rules will have been breached, and it is a contemporaneous account of the OPs genuine surprise (and therefore lack of racist intent) at the fact that the term could have been considered racist, as well as a willingness to reflect, learn and attempt to resolve the situation amicably.

This is what she said to me via PM

That’s is undoubtedly an apology. And nothing like the other ones. I don’t remember her using foul or threatening language though. Odd.

It was as close as he was going to get. Some posters you can just smell the crazy.

I seem to recall her saying she was ASD. That comes with all sorts of complications, on top of raising a couple of kids solo, and being a visible minority. I hope life gets better for her.

I don’t remember her using foul or threatening language though. Odd.

I’ve found a link to the original thread which I can PM to you if you want to review it. You were a vocal contributor to the discussion at the time.

Her ‘language’ got caught in the swear filter so wasn’t immediately obvious, she called me and aracer **** ****s. I kinda glossed over all that TBH, I didn’t care about her choice of words so much as her accusations.

I’ll cheerfully hold my hand up that I’m sometimes poor at choosing words and often don’t properly think posts through and then regret it later (and I do try to apologise when I recognise this) but I’m sincerely the least anything-ist person you’ll ever meet.

That entire argument was someone being offensive, me going “hey, you’re being offensive, here’s another example of something that’s similarly offensive so that you might understand just how outrageous that was” to be met with a chunk of the rest of the forum going “bloody hell Cougar, that’s offensive!” Which, yes it was and that was kind of the point, but in hindsight I should have had the sense to have chosen a less volatile example. My point was valid, my implementation of that point was stupid.

I’ve found a link to the original thread which I can PM to you if you want to review it. You were a vocal contributor to the discussion at the time.

I remember the thread well and my failure in association with it but I don’t recall a lot of language or threats – outside stating intentions to report to various bodies – which I guess I don’t see as threats. I suppose I don’t recall the language because sometimes people put the * in themselves.

I seem to recall her saying she was ASD. That comes with all sorts of complications, on top of raising a couple of kids solo, and being a visible minority. I hope life gets better for her

Same here. I hope she gets some help

I haven’t read through the entire thread, so sorry if I’m repeating stuff that’s already been said.

I don’t think the OP is treating this as seriously as he should. It doesn’t matter what his intentions were, the problem is the effect his words had and then the OP’s behaviour afterwards.

1. HR people are not your friend. They are not there to help you. They are there to protect the company from lawsuits. It’s much safer for them to reprimand or sack you than risk a potential lawsuit over having a culture of harassment.

2. It doesn’t matter whether you intended to be offensive, or even whether a reasonable judge would think your comment was offensive. Another person is saying that you offended them. You cannot argue that you didn’t offend them because only they have access to their own thoughts and feelings. What you should have done in the first place was to apologize for giving offense, regardless of whether you felt it was really justified. That would have sorted it all out and put an end to it. By refusing to acknowledge that the other person was offended, you turned it into a bigger issue. The issue now is your behavior afterwards, not the initial comment (i.e. it’s the coverup, not the crime that’s the problem).

3. Now that a formal complaint has been made, you talk about how other people are on your side. This sounds like there is a potential campaign of harassment against the complainent. Not all complaints to HR are found to be justified, but people are allowed to complain and you cannot criticize them for complaining, even if their complaint is not upheld. Publicly criticizing them and taking part in any sort of retaliation is much, much more serious than the initial behavior (which I think is a trivial mistake that could have been resolved with a genuine apology right at the start).

So my suggestion is to take it seriously, acknowledge that the other person was offended even if you had no intention of offending them, and also acknowledge that they were completely within their rights to make a complaint and make sure you don’t publicly criticize them or harass them in any way (and the same goes for your colleagues, you need to tell them to back off). If you don’t do that, you will make it very tempting for the company to start to think it will be much easier to just sack you and make the problem go away.

Oh that thread. Yeah, that was a good point made in entirely the wrong place, if you are trying to be objective then STW is not the place to try and do it. As somebody said before, the moment some people get offended it’s all guns blazing and they absolutely will not listen to any reasoning. Which in some cases is understandable but this is why we have higher authorities to defer to who can (hopefully) look at the issue unemotively, objectively and most importantly factually.

Hols2 – agreed HR are not “your friends” but at the same time this has already been legally questioned and thrown out, I really cannot see what grounds they would have for concern.

To the people slagging the recipient of the op’s comms off.

He informed me he had spoken to HR helpline that morning and logged a complaint against me of racist behaviour.

It is quite possible that having spoken to a helpline he was instructed by them to put a formal complaint in, not many hr people, pregnant with such knowledge, will say just do nothing and we’ll all ignore it.

In the Wiltshire case the actual complaint of “inappropriate language” was upheld, it was the method of investigation that was deemed unfair.

I really cannot see what grounds they would have for concern.

For the original comment, sure. But when the OP starts talking about other people agreeing with him, it starts to sound like harassment of the complainant. That behaviour is much, much more serious than the original comment. Harassing someone for making a complaint is quite likely to get you fired, regardless of how minor the original offence was.