Would it?

In reality, no. But in the mind of a nice white middle class person who feels like they have just been accused of being racist and is desperate to ‘prove’ and ‘explain’ why they aren’t I can see them feeling that an apology would be an admission of guilt. Hence the non-apology ‘I’m sorry if you took offense but…’ phrases that are damn near guaranteed to piss off the offendee.

I’m not sure as I buy into this notion of automatically being in the wrong just because someone else says you are.

I think the consensus is that the OP wasn’t in the wrong for using the phrase, but IS in the wrong for think dismissing a black person’s opinion on racism and the non-apology.

However, his co-worker was (baselessly) offended

You can’t say if it’s baseless. You might say the black guy handled it poorly though. For all we know the kids in the local park pretended to bang ‘jungle drums’ every time he walked past whilst jeering and mocking. I don’t think that as a white person you can say if his upset has any basis or not

I’m not sure what this resistance is to saying sorry even if you don’t feel like you did anything wrong.

Because it’s an empty apology, it’s just words. You can’t apologise sincerely for something you’ve done if you don’t understand what it is you’ve done, all you can do is say your sorry that they’re upset, which isn’t really the same thing.

Maybe this is an Aspie brain thing and just me being weird, but I’m not in the habit of apologising for things I haven’t done or aren’t my fault. An insincere apology isn’t an apology at all, it’s an attempt to appease someone.

*erratum

That is a universal claim claim of universality

Cougar wrote

Maybe this is an Aspie brain thing and just me being weird, but I’m not in the habit of apologising for things I haven’t done or aren’t my fault. An insincere apology isn’t an apology at all, it’s an attempt to appease someone.

I haven’t been diagnosed, but have often noticed am nodding along in enthusiastic agreement with many of his comments 🧐

‘Dude, I am literally offended by what you just said’

‘Dude, I LITERALLY didn’t mean to offend anyone by what I just said, and trust me I know the meaning of ‘literally’ better than anyone who isn’t also on the spectrum’

‘Dude, you literally didn’t just say that?

‘I literally did’

‘Bruh!?’

The only point I’d perhaps disagree on is the implication that an apology is automatically mandatory. The missing step being to ask why first.

I don’t think you lose anything by apologising straight away and it’s much more likely to lead to a conversation where you can find out what the issue is.

In the OPs case he didn’t feel like he said anything offensive and told the black person he didn’t think the he had anything to be offended about. This seems to have understandably just pissed this person off even more and they chose to leave rather than stay and have a debate about language. Probably they were angry and they showed level headedness to leave rather than try to carry on debating while pissed off.

If the OP had started with, ‘I’m really sorry, I had no idea, for me it’s just an expression.’ then I think the other person would have been more open to staying and discussing it and maybe everyone would have found there was actually nothing to be offended about. As has been said, jungle has many racist connotations and ‘jungle drums’ just isn’t heard that much anymore.

I really don’t see what anyone has to lose by apologising first. It’s not an admission of guilt. It’s just being British.

A person from Pakistan is Pakistani, the word p*** is ranked as the 10th most racially offensive term and you cannot equate the word Scot to it, which is the official term for a Scottish national. No wonder Reni Eddo-Lodge is No Longer Talking To White People About Race.

“I’ve written before about this white denial being the ubiquitous politics of race that operates on its inherent invisibility. So I can’t talk to white people about race any more because of the consequent denials, awkward cartwheels and mental acrobatics that they display when this is brought to their attention. Who really wants to be alerted to a structural system that benefits them at the expense of others?”

Start reading this book for free: http://amzn.eu/0kxt0Sq

Have you noticed how a similar pattern emerges when people talk about difficult subjects such as racism or sexism?
I admire @Brucewee and @molgrips, they have presented empathetic and rational ideas which reduces confusion and encourages dialogue, acceptance and understanding. Rather than calling out, they have called in. It’s ok to admit that you didn’t know how it would be interpreted, it’s not your fault as an individual as racism is so insidious that structural racism is at the heart of British society. Are you willing to learn? Then you need to listen to what BAME people are saying, rather than being defensive and ridiculing them.
Can you imagine what it is like for a person of colour to read through some these posts on a cycling forum? Whilst contributers are anonymous it doesn’t reflect well on the magazine nor the sport

You can’t say if it’s baseless. You might say the black guy handled it poorly though. For all we know the kids in the local park pretended to bang ‘jungle drums’ every time he walked past whilst jeering and mocking.

You know, that’s a very good point. But the OP would have had no idea that was the case. So we get the rather bizarre situation where the OP hasn’t said anything offensive but the African gentleman has justifiably taken offence.

An insincere apology isn’t an apology at all, it’s an attempt to appease someone.

Yes, exactly. It’s a way of de-escalating tensions. It’s one of the many ways society functions smoothly.

I know you said earlier you don’t do it but I think most people would apologise if someone walked into them. I know I do. I lose nothing and it lets the other person know straight away that I’m not about to become aggressive. My insincere society mandated apology allows him to give me his sincere apology for walking into me without worrying that I’m about to punch him.

Empty apologies can save a lot of hassle in life. It was lane swimming at the pool today, I was heading down the line as fast as an old man can swim when someone crossed the line. I saw at the last second so stopped swimming and just bumped past rather than them getting a flailing arm. I stuck my head up and said sorry, so did they, end of.

Would it?

In reality, no

You never met someone who would take an apology as an admission of guilt? I must be unlucky…

We can enter the world/cycle of reinforcement simply by standing down. And I always apologise for people bumping into me. But I’ve never (to memory) apologised for offending someone where offence wasn’t intended without my also inviting a frank discussion as to how it came to be that we were BOTH mistaken. It doesn’t always work of course, but (especially when families or other groups are involved) there is sometimes a terribly injust(unjust) hierarchy that can be maintained/manipulated by passive-aggression, victim-card waving and wrongful blame.

@cougar I understand where you’re coming from, but something like ‘I’m sorry that I used language that offended you’ can absolutely be a sincere apology and certainly goes some way towards repairing the damage done. It’s important in these situations to take ownership of your actions, and as you’ve pointed out figuring out where you’ve gone wrong is an important part of that. But so is acknowledging the fact that your actions have intentionally or not lead to someone’s offence*.

*Using the word offence here seems a bit too light. I can only begin to imagine what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racist language and am sure that the emotional damage can be considerable.

ANYWAY. Hats off to the mature and reasoned posters on this thread. I’ve learned a few things about language and bias.

So we get the rather bizarre situation where the OP hasn’t said anything offensive but the African gentleman has justifiably taken offence.

Perhaps yes. And this is the kernel of it. Things that might have racist origin or connotations are perpetuated by people who have no idea about it. This in itself is racist in an abstract way because it means white people aren’t paying attention or are ignorant of the issues. And it’s not like we aren’t told – there’s a lot written about racism, but then as you see on here people would rather believe themselves right than admit to themselves they have something to learn.

On the other hand, the black guy (not necessarily African is he?) could have simply been upset rather than actively offended. By which I mean ‘sorry mate, I know you were just using a figure of speech but that phrase really upset me I had to leave’ rather than ‘how dare you, you racist bastard’. We don’t really know what happened afterwards do we? Or did I miss the update?

From re-reading the OP it sounds like the follow-on was what caused more offence than the original phrase, which would change the situation quite a bit wouldn’t it?

I know you said earlier you don’t do it but I think most people would apologise if someone walked into them. I know I do. I lose nothing and it lets the other person know straight away that I’m not about to become aggressive.

I say “excuse me” in that situation rather than “sorry.” It achieves the same result without an implicit admission of being at fault.

Also this:

It’s ok to admit that you didn’t know how it would be interpreted

If someone asks you if a phrase is racist and you think it isn’t then ‘I don’t know if it’s racist’ is a better answer than ‘no it’s not racist’. Particularly if you’re not a user or receiver of racist language.

My millennial angst is spiraling into full meltdown now as I absolutely love Jungle music.

This in itself is racist in an abstract way because it means white people aren’t paying attention or are ignorant of the issues. And it’s not like we aren’t told – there’s a lot written about racism, but then as you see on here people would rather believe themselves right than admit to themselves they have something to learn.

Wow, isn’t that in itself negative (and racial) generalising?

I absolutely love Jungle music

You can use that term inoffensively unless someone (even 1 person from 8 billion) posts a different, negative and racially-charged definition on urbandictionary.com. Then it would be offensive and the onus would be upon you (if you are ‘white’) to know this, otherwise badnaughtyinsensitive ie typical white person /sarcasm

Wow, isn’t that in itself negative (and racial) generalising?

I guess we’ve come to the ‘White people are the real oppressed people’ stage of the discussion.

possibly trolling?

I guess we’ve come to the ‘White people are the real oppressed people’ stage of the discussion.

Wow. Really?

As others have said including me there is a way to do this without the empty words fake apology

this is to say something like ” I didn’t realise that could be seen as racist, help me understand why it can be”

Or “I said that with no racist intent, so let me explain why I, and others, use that phrase.”

I know we’ve covered this before but the Union Jack is widely used, and seen, as a symbol of racism and oppression. And yet, it is still in widespread use.

I once got into an argument with a colleague over “positive discrimination” but we sorted it out by never speaking to each other again. With hindsight there may have been a better way.

this is to say something like ” I didn’t realise that could be seen as racist, help me understand why it can be”

Or hows about “I’m not racist, but….”?

Wow, isn’t that in itself negative (and racial) generalising?

Yeah, of course, insert the word ‘most’ or ‘many’ in there. My fingers get tired eventually.

I know you said earlier you don’t do it but I think most people would apologise if someone walked into them.

This happens for a reason – it diffuses the argument as to wether or not they bumped into you or you were in their way, because it’s impossible to establish without going back over the video evidence. Both people usually apologise, no-one is the winner or lose, everyone’s happy.

But apparently, when we’re behind keyboards, we don’t do this, someone has to be right, someone has to be the victor and someone the vanquished.

Scotroutes – that would be invalidating the offended persons experience and would lead IMO to further rancor. Effectively you are telling him he is wrong. Now he may well be wrong – but to tell him he is is not helpful.

My way validates his experience and asks for help in understanding that experience. Its not an admission of guilt or accepting the term is racist. Its a way of seeking a solution that leads both sides to be happy.

superficially the two statements look similar but emotionally very far apart

Now he may well be wrong – but to tell him he is is not helpful.

It might be very helpful in helping him not be wrong again.

It might be very helpful in helping him not be wrong again.

Yeah but I don’t think you can realistically lecture him on it. Some things are just never going to end well.

Astonishingly, TJ is right also 😉

Yeah, of course, insert the word ‘most’ or ‘many’ in there. My fingers get tired eventually.

I interestingly enough. You haven’t actually apologised there. 😜

scotroutes

Member
Now he may well be wrong – but to tell him he is is not helpful.

It might be very helpful in helping him not be wrong again.

+1 (i also said this earlier 😉 )

So do we know if the OP has been hauled over the coals by HR for the comment or not?

I was looking at this from a conflict resolution point of view – not about proving who was right and who was wrong nor a points scoring exercise.

My line does no mean the op admitting he was wrong, does not mean the other person admitting they were wrong. Its simply a way of resolving conflict.

something like this its not helpful if you want to defuse conflict to make any side admit they were wrong as its a matter of subjective opinion not fact.

Maybe this is an Aspie brain thing and just me being weird, but I’m not in the habit of apologising for things I haven’t done or aren’t my fault. An insincere apology isn’t an apology at all, it’s an attempt to appease someone.

Ah, the non-apology apology. Often used by Politicians and C suite types.
You can spot those who have taken the insincere admission of regret comms course easily. If it starts with a conditional, if it uses the word apology, regret, but never an admission of deliberateness or sorry.

Real people say sorry. People trained in PR say apologies. They are different things.

I say “excuse me” in that situation rather than “sorry.” It achieves the same result without an implicit admission of being at fault.

Although that implies you have done something for which you should be excused… which is in itself an admission of erring.

I may be playing devil’s slight advocate but I’m certain,y not trolling.

A few conflicting claims and quotes from this thread:

Once you infuse Jungle Drums with racist connotations it becomes racist regardless of the context.

Except, no-one (or at least, hardly anyone) seems to have done that.

Now contrast that with BruceWee’s ‘explanations’

There are two explanations for why this person took offense. The first is that Jungle Drums has been adopted by racists and they are now using it to insult black people.

The second is that it’s a phrase that has fallen so far out of common usage that this person had never heard it before. Jungle has many racist connotations thanks to racists so he may have assumed it was a racist term.

It seems that I actually agree with BruceWee here inasmuch as they are two possible explanations. Without further inout from the offended party it’s all very much conjecture and a descended into assumption, generalising and stereotyping. Along with some non-too-subtle calls for wearing the collective mantle of ‘white-guilt’.

I really don’t see how that helps. Also

This is part of the problem. White people going ‘there’s no problem with this thing I know nothing about’ and ignoring black people when trying to point out that there is.

Contrasting with

Used in my family to imply hearing it from someone else, just like on the grapevine. Ran it past my non-white fiance and got a wtf are they on about response.

My ultimate favourite was someone googling it and finding it to be crypto-racially defined in Urban Dictionary, and then using that as key evidence of meaning. We really are all **** at that point.

Although that implies you have done something for which you should be excused… which is in itself an admission of erring.

One may infer that if they like but I didn’t imply it. Because alternatively, “excuse me” is also Polite for “would you mind awfully getting the **** out of my way.” Which is nice.

And “sorry” is polite English for “watch where you’re going you dozy ****” when someone bumps into you.

Do you think you’re gonna get sued if you admit liability or something?

Once you infuse Jungle Drums with racist connotations it becomes racist regardless of the context.

I think the issue I have here is the notion that if one person thinks something is offensive, it’s automatically offensive across the board. Which is the sort of woolly thinking that leads to “Muslims want to ban Christmas” headlines every year because one junior councillor over at Scarfolk Borough Council thought it was a good idea to say “Winter Celebrations” instead.

There’s too many reactionary idiots just spoiling for a fight, but they simply aren’t representative of their demographic and shouldn’t be held as so. It’s not just regarding race either, you see the same swivel-eyed vitriol coming from certain TERFy corners of the feminist movement and plenty of other places too. They’re about as far removed from reality as ISIS is from the guy who works in my local kebab shop.

Back when I was at school, we were once queuing in the pissing rain to get back into school after lunch. Two Asian lads walked straight past a line of like most of the school and tried to go in. They got turned away, and as they came back past me near the front of the queue I overheard one say to the other “huh, Miss is racist.” Would the correct response here have been to go “terribly sorry lads, we’d no idea, in you go in front of everyone else”?

It is absolutely critical to robustly challenge racism (along with any other -isms). But that doesn’t mean that we should kowtow to accusations of -isms where none exist, because that causes more problems than it solves.

Do you think you’re gonna get sued if you admit liability or something?

I’ve spoken before about my relationship with bullies, I’m just damned if I’m going to be a doormat.

Your last paragraph in your first post pretty much sums it up for me Cougar. In fact the whole post pretty much aligns with my point of view.

I don’t know whether it is because of social media that you hear about things more, but it does seem sometimes there are people hanging around just waiting to be offended by something. Throwing accusations around left right and centre actually does more harm than good.

There was a (now banned I think) poster on here who would actively try and find racism where it simply didn’t exist. That’s a damaging mindset for all involved and is never going to end well.