I forgot how rubbish older cars can be..

If anything, disc brake technology in cars has actually gone backwards, not forwards. The problem is that the pad material has gone more towards what we as MTBers would call ‘sintered’, rather than organic. The normal road car pads are harder now, with less feedback into the pedal and this is one of several areas where racing brakesets differ markedly from road kit; they’re designed to produce more feel at their higher operating temperatures. Harder pads also result in rapid disc wear as well as that reduction in feel. But again, as riders, we know that tyre contact is way more important in braking than the brakes themselves, which have been plenty good enough for years. Modern suspension geometry and response, plus tyre construction & compounds are the controlling factors…

Car brake pads have always been sintered. that refers to the method of manufacture not the material they’re made of.

Don’t forget modern disks are made from a softer material now. Hence why disks now need changing more often than they used to.

Don’t forget modern disks are made from a softer material now. Hence why disks now need changing more often than they used to.

Really? I would assume it’s the heavier cars.

The only reason I’ve had to replace more than one set of discs on any car I’ve owned is either overheating and warping, or not getting enough heat into them and rusting away.

Cougar – Moderator

Mate once had an Astra van, the headlamp bulb went so he picked one up from Halfords. After a bit of headscratching he asked me for help. I couldn’t fathom it either, so looked in the manual. “Dealer service only.”

Just bad design tbh- entire headlight unit comes out of my ford in about 5 seconds- 2 metal tabs and a plug. People always think it’s for packaging reasons but that setup’s no bulkier than the unservicables. Maybe better since it means you don’t need access to the back of the light, just the top.

OTOH, when I had to change the little clutch master cylinder in my focus, step 1 was “remove the steering column”, imagine my delight.

My first car was a polo in 1987 – JGH 402Y was the reg I think.

The brakes were really bad, heart-stoppingly so sometimes.

Actually drove pretty well apart from that.

i thought about this as I had to brake hard for an errant sheep on the moors this morning in my 14yr old A3.

Has brake technology really moved on that much? Its still applying friction pads to a metal disc. with equal tyres fitted then I’d reckon my old A3 would out brake a modern A3 as its smaller and lighter.
Some years back I had the opportunity to take my boss’s new ‘W’ reg Audi A4 1.9 TDi out to a customer. As I’d been using the firm’s old Mondeo diesel, which took a calendar month to hit 60, I was more than a little unprepared for the way it did a tyre-squealing launch towards the car park exit when I gave it some beans, then stood on its nose when I hit the brakes before I hit anyone passing outside. It left me rather shaken, but I had huge respect for the brakes, which needed to be treated with some respect.
My 51-plate 1.9TDi Octavia is very similar in many respects, the dash is identical, it goes well when you give it some welly, and the brakes are really very impressive.

This time it wouldn’t start and I was blocking the whole lane causing a big tailback. I sat with the hazards on trying to restart it but it wouldn’t fire up.

Back in the olden days cars were much simpler and real men knew how to fix them on the side of the road. 😉

Im no stranger to fixing cars by the side of the road. My first 5 cars were mini’s so i got very used to fixing stuff roadside with a 13mm spanner.

Like others have said you need to find a good example of an older car to do a true comparison. Old models tend to be run on a shoestring so are guaranteed to be a bit rough around the edges.
I used to own a Vauxhall Nova 1.4 Luxe (G677 WPC, now dead 🙁 ), loved that car. Actually saw a near-identical one in Coleford in the FOD at the petrol station a few years ago, same year and spec but had the optional extra alloys. The cast BBG multispoke copies that were also on Astras. Got chatting to the owner who said he bought it new with a cash windfall and vowed to look after it perfectly until he could no longer drive, it was immaculate all over! Was a bit taken back when he offered me a drive in it, seemed quite chuffed I wanted to talk about it I think. It drove like new*, really good brakes, sharp steering, sweet gearbox and responsive throttle and no rattles. He was in his 70’s so I left him my number saying if he ever sells it to give me first refusal. Saw it again late last year, still immaculate bimbling along.

Might have to start saving though as prices of Nova’s seem to be going up 😯

* for a Nova, it wasn’t the best car available back then!

I’d say older cars are often better to drive. Better visibility, more steering feel, lighter, more character, simpler to fix when they go wrong. New cars are pretty bland and ‘samey’ really.

there are older cars and older cars. I’m sure my B reg Golf would be rubbish now – crap lights, leaked like a sieve, but it always started and was easy to repair.. G reg Saab 900 was a bit slow but at least had power steering, felt solid as a tank, and visibility was ace. The boot was cavernous, flat load bay, huge tailgate, heated seats and I think looked just right. Even the 1996 P Saab 900 went well, had some great features and stopped well. just felt there was more redundancy and the engine wasn’t shoehorned in the bay. Sure my nearly new car feels newer but I’d say that Saab – 20 years old, still going – was a pretty good car.

Mate of mine had a MkII Escort with a similar problem, only it was the seat back latch (it was a 2-door with foldy-forward seats to get in the back). So every time he gave it beans, which given that he’d have been about 19 and in a MkII Escort was “every time he set off,” there’d be a *snap* and you’d be looking at the ceiling with your head on the back seat.

When my BIL 1st started dating my sister he also had a Mkll escort as did I, and he’d fitted bodged some bucket seats into his.
Anyhow, my sister told me that one day they had a bit of a tiff so she got out and walked away, meanwhile he revved his engine and went to race off, only problem being that the front seat bolts ripped straight through the floor, and he ended up on his back staring at the roof. She said she turned around to see the car trundling along into the kerb,with just a pair of feet by the steering wheel.
She said, I just shook my head and thought ‘Knob’ 😆

I picked up a sporty 205 last year and I’ve done some work on it. Use it as a daily and I actually look forward to driving it to work! The route is M3, M25, M4, but I’ve found all the A and B roads. Anyone else here (who doesn’t ride in) look forward to their commute?

Anyone else here (who doesn’t ride in) look forward to their commute?

certainly used to in my 156

Hmmm. 1L polo would be gutless, but the brakes were fine from memory. If not maintained the flexi lines degraded internally, also particularly susceptible to moisture in the fluid for some reason – stripped several calipers filled with “mayonnaise”, funnily enough brakes more than adequate after that. MOT is sadly not a great indication of brake health, as long as the tester has a heavy enough foot.
De-misting with a chamois suggests blocked drains in the scuttle panel – water getting into the air vents and also flowing into the ecu eventually hence why you stopped. Give a modern car 6 years of looking after and 10 years of get it through another year maintenance and it will also feel like a piece of crap.

Some of you need to experience the joys of modern alfas. They sorted the electrics (ish) but made suspension arms and wheel bearing consumables.
Nice place to sit though.

Used to drive around with a hammer, old socket extension and emery cloth for when the starter solenoid stuck and points had built up a pip.

I more or less taught myself to drive in a MK1 Escort van that belonged to Gleesons, while working for the engineers on the Stokenchurch Cut on the M4. It took me a week to pluck up the courage to go into second gear! The Escort was nice to drive, had a super-smooth engine and incredibly light gearbox but in common with all cars pre-electronics, it had a manual choke, which you needed to remember to knock off when it warmed up. If you follow any of those old cars nowadays you’ll smell the stink of unburned petrol (no lean-burn engines then) and oil burning off the cylinder walls. Up until when we married in 1997 Mrs Gti used to be an area sales manager and she used to arrive at my house on a Friday absolutely stinking of exhaust fumes after sitting on the M6 car park.

At least with those old carburettor cars you could get them started by taking off the air filter lid and pouring half a cup of petrol down the hole, something we often needed to do when I worked in a Vauxhall showroom.

The main thing for me that makes me like newer cars is the advanced in safety. I think the advanced in safety between the 90s cars and 00s are massive. I actually think it was a bigger step then then it has been since even though they are safer now l, they haven’t advanced as much. However now with Volvos new cars they are just bringing out its going to be very hard to have an accident.

Proper old cars before wind tunnel design are great. In a bar near Pila last year a local pulled up in a Model T hotrod with a downhill bike in the back. Pure envy and lust. I very rarely suffer from the first emotion.

New ones can be crap too.

I’ve got a Citroen DS3 on contract hire, it’s about 3 months old.

Goes well, stops ok, handles like a little french car should.

But it’s already got loads of vibrations and rattles, the road noise on anything other than silky smooth new tar is pretty abismal, the part gloss interior scratches if you look at it, and at the joint between the front wing and bumper a clip seems to have given up so the bumper sits proud, I have to keep clipping it back on. In addition, a month after having it, the air con pump imploded and it spent 2 weeks in main dealer having it and most of the rest of the AC system replaced. Although the engine, gearbox, and electrics are new, most of the technology is very old.

I had a C3 courtesy car for the 2 weeks the DS3 was off the road, I had a good look around and most of the actual mechanical bits on it are the same technology, and I think some would actually fit my 205. That’s over 30 year old tech.

This thread reminds me of Sunday afternoons when I was a kid in the late 70s. It seemed that the bonnet of every car in the street was up and the respective neighbours were bent over into the engine bay. Balding men with sideburns brandishing feeler gauges spanners and a well thumbed Hayne’s. Extension leads running across the pavement to power a buzzing old battery charger. Spark-plugs and points falling through to the road below and the ensuing curses. Happy days when you could fix a car without a laptop and comm’s cable.

Couple of things:

Are you really kidding yourself that old brakes are as good as new ones? Have you tried many new cars?

I used to have a Mk2 Golf 16v. I bought new discs and pads for it, which were a mild upgrade at around 45k miles. They were still on it when I sold the car at 110k mile, with plenty of wear left in the pads. They were also supremely effective stoppers, sensitive too – I never once locked the front wheels, despite a good deal of rural driving in the depths of winter.

Modern brakes have a lot more work to do – cars are heavier, also they are constrained by materials as asbestos compounds aren’t allowed anymore. This is why modern discs wear so quickly as they’ve had to make harder pads to compensate IIRC.

They sorted the electrics (ish) but made suspension arms and wheel bearing consumables.

Yep, modern Alfas have the same Bosch electrics beloved of VW/Audi, but it’s been calculated that it’s cheaper to replace a whole suspension arm than to press out worn bushes and press in new ones. Happily, there are alternatives, Powerflex promise that their polyurethane bushes last ten times as long as their Alfa counterparts.

The disposable wishbone thing isn’t just an Alfa phenomena either, several manufacturers do this.

My 20yo Volvo cost £400. Leather, electric memory seats, electric sunroof/mirrors, AC climate control, ABS. Shifts like a good un (the new Golf TDI’s don’t stand a chance and they have tried!). Brakes are just as good as my new Focus too. And I could probably park a Focus in its boot.

And because it’s RWD the turning circle is 3 METRES smaller than a new Passat so it’s crazy easy to park.

I love my new Focus but blimey my Volvo is good too!

derek_starship – Member

This thread reminds me of Sunday afternoons when I was a kid in the late 70s. It seemed that the bonnet of every car in the street was up and the respective neighbours were bent over into the engine bay. Balding men with sideburns brandishing feeler gauges spanners and a well thumbed Hayne’s. Extension leads running across the pavement to power a buzzing old battery charger. Spark-plugs and points falling through to the road below and the ensuing curses. Happy days when you could fix a car without a laptop and comm’s cable.

Sunday afternoons in 2016- all the cars work. Everyone is doing something else.

Except me, I’m probably hitting mine with a hammer and swearing at it, the perfidious bastard.

Balding men with sideburns brandishing feeler gauges spanners and a well thumbed Hayne’s. Extension leads running across the pavement to power a buzzing old battery charger. Spark-plugs and points falling through to the road below and the ensuing curses.

^this. I remember that my father seemed to spend a couple of hours under a bonnet every weekend fiddling with engines and swearing the air a shade of blue. Back then, he wasn’t the only one, I recall being woken up early one morning as my neighbour fought a losing battle trying to start a two year old Ford Cortina, which made a progressively more anguished noise from the starter motor every time the key was turned.

People used to leave their freshly started cars idling on the driveway to warm up too.

Nothing old about any of the cars mentioned so far!

Built in the 20s, has taken us to the Le Mans Classic (and back!) and gets thrashed up stuff I wouldn’t take our 4×4 up all winter competing in vintage trials.

Ok so the are no seat belts or heater and the pedals are in the wrong order but it’s about as much fun as you can have on 4 wheels. No tax and insurance is about £50.

milky1980 – Member
Like others have said you need to find a good example of an older car to do a true comparison. Old models tend to be run on a shoestring so are guaranteed to be a bit rough around the edges.
I used to own a Vauxhall Nova 1.4 Luxe (G677 WPC, now dead ), loved that car. Actually saw a near-identical one in Coleford in the FOD at the petrol station a few years ago, same year and spec but had the optional extra alloys. The cast BBG multispoke copies that were also on Astras. Got chatting to the owner who said he bought it new with a cash windfall and vowed to look after it perfectly until he could no longer drive, it was immaculate all over! Was a bit taken back when he offered me a drive in it, seemed quite chuffed I wanted to talk about it I think. It drove like new*, really good brakes, sharp steering, sweet gearbox and responsive throttle and no rattles. He was in his 70’s so I left him my number saying if he ever sells it to give me first refusal. Saw it again late last year, still immaculate bimbling along.

Might have to start saving though as prices of Nova’s seem to be going up

* for a Nova, it wasn’t the best car available back then!

Indeed, this was the sort of thing I was considering in my first post. I’ve had cars where I thought the brakes were fine, just not as sensitive as some newer cars, then put new pads and discs on and ended up locking up left, right and centre (and this was without even needing to replace calipers, or conduct a bleed, both of which might have given even better performance).

I’ve also driven hire cars with around 20k on them that feel very tired, it really does depend how well they’re looked after (and yes I’d accept that as a method of getting from A to B you probably wouldn’t perform much beyond keeping it MOT compliant, but that’s different from it not being possible to maintain it to a better standard).

None old apart from the Ford Model T hot rod. Cool car james. Ive got shirts older than some of the others.

Nothing beats the feel and smell of a brand-new car and it doesn’t last long; my Passat B8 now has 20,000 miles on it and the terrible roads have already taken their toll of the shockers; it still drives well but it just lacks that eager springy feeling of a brand-new, unworn car. As for the smell…. well my cars always get passed on to somebody more junior because I look after them very well. Currently my old B7 is being driven around by a lovely girl from Marketing and I feel so sorry for her; if she knew just how much I farted in that seat she’d hand it straight back.