"I asked God to help me"

ernie_lynch – Member

Your last pic made me chuckle TJ…….”Women deserve better than abortion” “Hurt by abortion? Call….” Outrageous !!! Tad ridiculous – couldn’t be bothered looking for any More SPUC propaganda – nasty bunch of zealots determined to force their views on others

Have they got an STW logon for the chat forum yet?

I’m not taking anything personally, I was taken slightly aback by the level of absurd in the response to my albeit poorly worded statement. To clarify, my point was that although organised religion has plenty to answer for, a individuals personal religious belief should be respected even if disagreed with. Challenging that belief is fine, but belittling it seems to cross the line and become attack. Just my opinion of course.

nasty bunch of zealots determined to force their views on others

Well obviously not everyone has the same views on abortion, and not always on religious grounds – I take it you don’t believe that abortion kills babies for example. But “Women deserve better than abortion” and “Hurt by abortion? Call…” can hardly be described as offensive hate-filled poison, which I assume was your intention.

I presume you didn’t bother reading the banners properly as you frantically scoured Google Images for some dirt. I’m sure you could have found something rather more offensive if you had calmed down and taken a bit more time.

……my albeit poorly worded statement

It was very well worded. Don’t let them make you start doubting yourself.

Nope ernie – quite calm just couldn’t be bothered finding any more.

So it was just a half-arse attempt then ?

Fair enough…….made me chuckle 🙂

To clarify, my point was that although organised religion has plenty to answer for, a individuals personal religious belief should be respected even if disagreed with. Challenging that belief is fine, but belittling it seems to cross the line and become attack. Just my opinion of course.

fine so long as they keep it to themselves, Use their beliefs to ty to tellme what to do or to attack others then expect to be challenged

LimboJimbo – Member

I’m not taking anything personally, I was taken slightly aback by the level of absurd in the response to my albeit poorly worded statement. To clarify, my point was that although organised religion has plenty to answer for, a individuals personal religious belief should be respected even if disagreed with. Challenging that belief is fine, but belittling it seems to cross the line and become attack. Just my opinion of course.

Thanks for the response.

I’d be interested why you think only religious belief/opinion, as opposed to all other forms of belief, is worthy of exemption from attack?

If we are ok to belittle political, sexual and cultural beliefs, what makes religious belief any different?

TJ, I couldn’t agree more there is plenty to challenge in those pictures. It seems as though all religious belief is ridiculed by some rather than the hatred some people use that belief to justify.

Jimbo, don’t answer if you don’t want to, but I’m seriously interested.

I’ve asked the above question on many occaisions, but never really had a response.

I’d be genuinely interested in your opinion.

Regards,
Pete.

I’d be interested why you think only religious belief/opinion, as opposed to all other forms of belief, is worthy of exemption from attack?

If we are ok to belittle political, sexual and cultural beliefs, what makes religious belief any different?

The problem here is with the word ‘attack’.

This thread isn’t about religious extremism. It started out about a very humble and down to earth guy (particularly when you consider his peers). Why should someone like that be ‘attacked’ without any kind of provocation?

I mean, if someone wants a fight. Get your shirt off and go for it. Fill ya boots. But is it OK to attack people for their religious, sexual or cultural beliefs? If it’s not to the detriment of those around them then I don’t think it is. Is it? They are open to discussion, certainly. But not attack.

my point was that although organised religion has plenty to answer for, a individuals personal religious belief should be respected even if disagreed with

And I would disagree with that. I think an individual’s religious belief perhaps should be ignored, tolerated, or otherwise taken into account in some circumstances, but ‘respected’? No. A belief in a god or gods commands no more respect than a belief in homeopathy or any other man-made fiction. Why should it?

If my mate Dave thinks he’s Napoleon, should I respect that belief, or should I give him a bunch of pictures of diminutive French dictators and a mirror? If he persists in his belief, should I respect that or should I take the proverbial? (See my comments about humour earlier in this thread)

Butcher > well said, sir.

… so, if God made Jesus… who made God?

Butcher, +many.

But is it OK to attack people for their religious, sexual or cultural beliefs? If it’s not to the detriment of those around them then I don’t think it is. Is it? They are open to discussion, certainly. But not attack.

You see, this is where the problem arises:
One persons discussion is another persons attack.

No, it might not be nice to laugh at anothers deeply held opinions, but humour is a fundamental part of how we debate and reconcile the basic issues of humanity.

Someone is going to get offended, however much care is taken to avoid it.

You can’t separate humour and mockery from wider debate – human nature, surely?

Jimbo, don’t answer if you don’t want to, but I’m seriously interested.

I’ve asked the above question on many occaisions, but never really had a response.

I’d be genuinely interested in your opinion.

Regards,
Pete.

I’m still considering it TBH. I initially responded to the specific theme of the OP (please check my first post) but the discussion has widened to cover points that I genuinely don’t have the answers for. My initial instinct is to defend the right for individual belief whether I personally agree with it or not. The paradox is that, that freedom can allow some to hide behind it and cause harm. I am open minded to the views of others and have lots more to think about.

James.

Cougar, I think it probably comes down to a definition of ‘respect’. In terms of expecting ones views (religious or otherwise) to go completely unchallenged and be ‘untouchable’, then I’m 100% with you in that this should never e te case. If you strongly believe something then being challenged on it shouldn’t really be a big deal. However, in terms of expecting ones views (religious or otherwise) to be allowed to be expressed, even if every listener (or reader) dismissed them instantly, then yes I do think that should be expected. I expect to be able to say ‘hey, I’m a Christian’ and, if they don’t agree, for other people to go ‘great, I think your wrong, but fair play if that’s what you believe in’. More than happy , and fully expect, to then be challenged on WHY I have that belief, but NOT on the fact I have that belief in the first place.

[edited for a should instead of a shouldn’t!! stupid iPhone….]

CaptainFlashheart – Member

Butcher, +many.

😀

May I refer you to several hundred posts where you’ve attacked, nay, MOCKED, other’s cultural beliefs that association football is a valid, intelligent and entertaining sporting endeavour?

ernie_lynch – Member
derekrides – Member
However more than that I believe fundamentally to live and let live

Except of course those who fall foul of Dereks Law………..those you want to gun down in the street like you would a dog.

Still, it’s nice to see that you have your empathy hat on tonight Derek.

I try so hard to be good.

Resist the temptation to troll you lot.

But I fear it is temptation beyond my power to resist, I had to fall on my own can of anti troll spray last time to cut it out after 9 pages and this one is already at 4 pages and such a target rich environment.

Godless heathens abound and lots with beards, lycra and riding single speed, it’s already heaven. 😆

LimboJimbo – Member

I’m still considering it TBH. I initially responded to the specific theme of the OP (please check my first post) but the discussion has widened to cover points that I genuinely don’t have the answers for.

Ta for the reply.

Yes I did read your first post – hearty congrats to all of you.
Sounds like a tough little lad. 🙂

My initial instinct is to defend the right for individual belief whether I personally agree with it or not.

Mine too. I really don’t mind what anyone else believes.
They have a perfect right to do so.

However, I don’t believe that any belief or opinion should have the right not to be challenged, mocked or belittled.

Obviously, it looks like we’re not going to agree on that one, but I really appreciate your response, and all the others too 😀

Pete.

“Challenging that belief is fine, but belittling it seems to cross the line and become attack.”

I don’t know the bible well; I have only read what was absolutely necessary for anyone going to a UK school in the late 70s and 80s.

I feel I know enough to say that they are fairly sure that anyone who doesn’t embrace the word of god isn’t going to make it into the Kingdom of heaven. Whether or not another person believes the ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ exists, those that believe accept that those who don’t will be excluded.

I have read a little more of the Koran, but still not all of it. When it is said that the only way a believer may help an infidel is to ‘take him under his protection’, I honestly don’t think they meant to give him a good meal and a bed then say goodbye in the morning. 🙂

I don’t think it’s balanced at all to claim that atheists are offensive and ‘on the attack’, and that religious folks are accepting of all. Belittling those who do not believe as you do is fundamental to many religions.

Belittling those who do not believe as you do is fundamental to many religions.

If you think that then I reckon you weren’t paying attention at school in the late 70s and 80s when you were reading the Bible.

i`ve read the bible(cover to cover)absolute tosh made up by bearded tent dwelling loonies 😆

Ernie – its absolutely fundamental. Non believers are lessor beings than believers in the eyes of the religious. Its absolutely central to the faith otherwise there would be no point in being a believer if it did not make you a better person.

On these threads on here we have been told one cannot have morals without religion. that its both the right and the duty of the religious to attempt to convert the non religious but we have no right to challenge their superstition.

You forget to mention rather intelligent bearded tent dwelling loonies pitduck. Unless of course you think there is nothing spectacular about a book still being in print 2000 years on.

ernie_lynch – Member
You forget to mention rather intelligent bearded tent dwelling loonies pitduck. Unless of course you think there is nothing spectacular about a book still being in print 2000 years on.

As against er latter day bearded tent dwelling loonies who write atb gospels?

Ernie – its absolutely fundamental. Non believers are lessor beings than believers in the eyes of the religious. Its absolutely central to the faith otherwise there would be no point in being a believer if it did not make you a better person.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there mate. You and JC appear to be as one on this. Although apparently you weren’t aware.

EDIT : With regards to this btw : “otherwise there would be no point in being a believer if it did not make you a better person”

(nothing spectacular about a book still being in print 2000 years) not really the world is still full of loonies 🙁

Unimpressed eh ? The world always has been, and still is, “full of loonies”.

Never mind pitduck, at least you’re sane – and that’s what counts.

i never said that ern 😳

“otherwise there would be no point in being a believer if it did not make you a better person”

I suspect you will find that most believers are believers because they believe something – rather that they want to become a better person. Most (but not all) that I know find reconciling many of the questions raised here tough but still believe. There are lots of self help books if you just want to get better at something.

exceptions allowed of course

I remember watching American werewolf in London when I was a kid. It scared the bejeesus out of me and I had all sorts of terrible thoughts and nightmares floating around in my young mind for a loooong time and to this day, have a bit of trouble if I’m honest with walking across the Yorkshire moors in the pitch black of night.

I also went to Sunday School and was told about the consequences for non-believers.

Luckily, I’m older now and intelligent enough to realise that these were just stories.
😀

You’re gonna get people like Woppit frothing at the mouth with talk like that.

Sometimes the mouth froth is so severe and all over th screne that I cun hurdli see whatt it is I”m trng t type…

TandemJeremy – Member
Ernie – its absolutely fundamental. Non believers are lessor beings than believers in the eyes of the religious. Its absolutely central to the faith otherwise there would be no point in being a believer if it did not make you a better person.

I agree with your comments there TJ to the extent that they are correct. There are believers who seek to impose their views (incorrectly I agree) and look down on others (incorrectly I agree). Equally there are (1) believers who do neither, (2) non-believers who do both and (3) non-believers who do neither. It happens across religions – some Christians take the little word “the” in John 8:12 to do exactly that – amazing! And to think that religious people sent missionaries around the world to impose their views on other cultures not that long ago.

As others have said, its a pity that folk cannot live and let live. Otherwise they come across as intolerant, patronising, condescending and rude. You know the other day, some stranger who knows nothing about me, my family or beliefs or lack of them wrote:

You have successfully indoctrinated your children into a medieval superstition. Well done! However this does shed light on your general lack of rational behaviour and thought and credulous nature. More to be pitied than hated.

Extraordinary to think that such behaviour continues these days, isn’t it? Like missionaries, you would have hoped it had died out long ago.

I struggle with long sentences, but:

please – keep your superstitious garbage to yourself

Why? If you don’t like to read it, don’t. The idea that one is supposed to keep ones widely held, mainstream and inoffensive views to oneself just to protect your little mind is quite ridiculous.

I can’t see how he was trying to convert anyone or force anything on anyone. So jog on.

Non believers are lessor beings than believers in the eyes of the religious.

Have you asked them all? I don’t think you know what you are talking about.

You atheists are no different to people banging on about how 29ers are stupid without ever having ridden one.

I read an interesting book on religion, which pointed out that many fundamentalist atheists are so because they can’t believe that there is anyone or anything in the world more important than them ……. sound like TJ to anyone?

It also pointed out that many fundamentalist atheists justify there beliefs by highlighting the extremists in religions (such as the god hates fags lot) to justify there extreme Ego belief system.

For any atheists with an open mind the book was this one:

For the ignorant ones keep on as you were …… and try not to have a stroke when these posts come up

Molgrips, that’s rubbish.

I was forced to go to church and participate in organised religion for over a quarter of my life.
I’m perfectly capable of making up my own mind, thanks.

Whats a “fundamentalist atheist” and how do they differ from “atheists”

It also pointed out that many fundamentalist atheists justify there beliefs by highlighting the extremists in religions (such as the god hates fags lot) to justify there extreme Ego belief system.

In the same way that many people dislike the BNP because they are racist. It is just a little bit “core” to their faith isnt it?