How long to be a credible Cat 4 or am I just crap (road content)

TiRed – Do you think racing once a week is enough to bring about an improvement?

Well if you read my post of last night it’s possible that an 8 week Xc series has resulted in me being almost superhuman. But in reality, according to my output and HR and google racing is the best set if intervals and training for racing you’ll ever do. Not to mention experience gained.

Tomorrow I’m riding a training route littered with strava segments which play to my weaknesses, I’ll let you know if I PB them all.

my last two races have pretty much the exact same average and normalized power despite the difference in speed and elevation profile

That is good to see. Effort is what matters and you are putting in a consistent effort in each race. You’ll see your NP climb as you improve with racing. Then you just go faster – well I did anyway.

Mine has climbed over the past year. When I started racing it was about 270W. Now, in an E123 it will be about 300W. I tend to look at NP during a race as a summary measure of how hard I’m working. At the start it can be as high has 330W but tends to settle down as the race progresses. Those attacking and doing all the work are probably maintaining the 330W plus 🙁

EDIT alwillis one of those three was a TCC rider who is a very fast 3rd Cat – faster than me! There was a good write up, and yes it was a tough course. Well done.

Did my first road race on Sunday (late starter due to training for ironman this year). 3/4s seemed to be dominated by a small group of 3s as it was a tough circuit (purbecks) with a small ring climb every lap (and 8laps).

I was there. My lesson for this weekend was – if you wake up feeling like you have a cold, best stay in bed :(.

Had nothing on the climb and went straight out the back, stuck it out to register a finish as I was sharing the effort with another guy but should probably have knocked it on the head as I still feel crap. I’d been feeling great on Friday as well 🙁

To be honest, given the profile I’m surprised it stayed together as much as it did.

Yeah I’ve been having a scan at NP during the race, shame connect doesn’t do a graph that shows how it differed during the ride if you get me.

Is it just me or does anyone else suffer from lap confusion, auto lap on the Garmin and every single time I manage to convince myself it may/may not be the last lap about 17 times, on the last lap! Cue frantic Garmin lookage to see how many miles/laps we’ve done or time we’ve been racing! This week the last lap bell was so half arsed I wasn’t sure if it was just the wind blowing it!

How the hell do you get to look at a garmin? That’s a big mistake – focus on the race and ignore the garmin. Not only will you be safer it’d help with strategy?

I just look at it? Much like I’d look at a speedo in the car, 2 millisecond glance and the info is in my head. Everything I need is on 2 pages. On the “danger” factor it’s so far below grabbing a bottle/gel it’s not worth thinking about. Strategy is going absolutely all to **** if I don’t know it’s the last lap 😛

For race, my garmin shows

POWER (10sec av)
TIME elapsed – most circuit races are X min + Y laps
CADENCE LAPS – set to auto lap based on position
HR NP

POWER and TIME are writ large, NP is bottom right and can be glimpsed at any moment. Lap times flash up every time one passes the start point.

I did the Salt Ayre crit last night (3rd & 4th Cat), this time using a geared bike. 😉

About 35 riders, generally good standard of riding. You find by this time of year that it’s usually the same people, everyone has got used to their new kit, everyone knows the circuit and everyone behaves themselves.

The race was pretty steady, I tried several times to initiate a break but the problem is that even at a steady cruise the bunch was clipping along at 23-24mph so to get away you need to be able to sustain 28mph for 3-4 minutes. I got a very good gap once and a decent one on two other occasions but each time the bunch chased it down. First time I was away for 3 laps on my own, after that everyone was a bit more aware and marked me more closely. With 5 laps to go it eased up and everyone bunched up and started looking at each other. I tried one more dig but it was jumped on straight away.

I hate bunch sprints, I’ve got no kick and it was obvious it was going to come down to that so I gave up trying and stayed well out of the sprint, rolling in just outside top 20.

To be honest the result means nothing, I had a good race, I tried my best. Shame it was quite negative racing, no-one willing to really think “Hmm, if I go now, I can bridge to that, create a break and we can stay away”. Same 3 or 4 bunch engines who’d jump onto the front and tow the entire bunch back up to any move.
Average speed (according to Strava), 26.9mph, max 38mph.

To be honest the result means nothing, I had a good race, I tried my best. Shame it was quite negative racing, no-one willing to really think “Hmm, if I go now, I can bridge to that, create a break and we can stay away”. Same 3 or 4 bunch engines who’d jump onto the front and tow the entire bunch back up to any move.

That’s what I always hate about 3/4 races – I’m not sure if it’s necessarily intentionally negative, I think too few people have the jump, so a break goes and they think “I want a piece of that”, and gradually speed up and diesel across, dragging the whole bunch with them as you say. Inexperience as much as anything, but yes, utterly infuriating!

Well, I ‘tried’ the Colne GP 3/4s tonight round Colne town centre…..it was damp, the roads were greasy and after seeing the crash on the first lap, I was super aware that my back wheel was sliding out on the bottom bend.

Arriving seconds before the start to the back of the field didn’t help either.

I lasted about 10 minutes before I decided to save myself from potential bodily injury before the Etape this weekend and climbed off. Bit fed up cos its a blast whilst in the bunch and then totally thankless when you’re jetissoned off the back and breaking yourself to get back on.

Seems an oft talked about topic on this thread here, but bridging gaps and having that sustained surge for a few minutes is also what I’ve struggled with all season.

I think too few people have the jump, so a break goes and they think “I want a piece of that”, and gradually speed up and diesel across, dragging the whole bunch with them as you say. Inexperience as much as anything, but yes, utterly infuriating!

A lot are just crap riders. I’ve been on the front of 34s and been accused of negatively riding (pulling breaks back in), but basically most of the guys who go off the front barely leave the pack and can’t hold a speed differential on their own, so just get sucked back in. The really strong guys just go off the front and the pack couldn’t catch them if they wanted to and just solo to the finish! If you can hold 400Watts then you’ll get away, if you’re generating 350 or less, you don’t stand a chance unless it’s a hilly course and you’re really light.

So then what power meter 😉

Although I understand what you are saying FF, your words are a bit harsh.

Its worth remembering that 4th Cat is entry level to racing and yes whilst people skills aren’t always good/need to be developed or learned lets not be too harsh – they need to have somewhere to do it.

Personally I took a 6 session £50 in total BC coaching course AND rode a club event before I rode 4th cat, but my first races was still dead scary and I’m sure it was fairly obvious that I was “new”.

But everyone has to start somewhere, so lets be positive eh and rather than “crap” riders perhaps we could talk about “inexperienced” riders.

Edit: I just realised how I entitled this thread 😳

My lessons in wheel sucking continued on Sunday, Smithfield road race.

Pretty easy start/finish straight with just enough kick at the start to separate a few, it seems to continue at a slight gradient forever before another slight kick on the finish line. I’d ridden half the course before and expected it be as flat as a pancake, not so! After a turn or two and a small downhill the course starts showing its teeth with a few short sharp climbs to make everyone suffer. A boy I know on his first road race wasn’t quite ready for the pace and suffered through the first lap, when it eased up on the back straight he found me in the bunch and told me just how much he was “enjoying” it! He got dropped on the second laps climbs.

Still finding my way in the bunch but found myself at the back a few times, didn’t really ever find it too hard to move up the outside if I needed to but the back ain’t where I wanna be!!

I tried to stay near the front at the points I considered risky and kept an eye on who was trying to go up the road, I never really seen any moves that I thought would stay away. No one was getting a big enough gap so I just sat in when I could and moved up when I needed to.

Last lap came and I got a bit boxed in, when I looked up I was further back than I wanted to be so kicked and hoped I’d be able to get up. Felt like I was making decent progress when I spotted what can only be described as an animal rampaging his way up the hill! That’ll be the wheel I need!! Got on his wheel for maybe 20 seconds until we split, he looked like be was going left around 2 riders but changed his mind and went right by which point I felt committed so went left. Kept the power on and burst my way onto the line through another gap that kinda wasn’t there in 5th. Think the animal won it. Shoulda said cheers

Nice report. I need some uphill finishes.

In a totally different change of scenery, I rode the Reading GP 20Km track race on Saturday. Worked hard, stayed near the front and tried to hold position. Bridged an attack, but ultimately my gear selection was too high for me (50×15) and my legs faded. Dropped after 24/44 laps. The shorter races didn’t get any better! Looking at some gear charts, and knowing my preferred 110 RPM cadence, I was over-geared by at least two teeth on the front. Will try 48×15 for the next one. The 4000m Team Pursuit went better.

Road racing resumes midweek. Any takers for Hillingdon E123 tomorrow night, or E1234 Masters on Wednesday? Kick-off is 7:00.

Kryton – I think FF was pointing out the lack of explosive but sustained power lower down the categories rather than ‘skills’.

Seems to me that those that have that will have better base fitness too, and will probably be moving up the categories anyway.

Out of interest what power meters are people using?

Stages and a PowerCal, depending on bike. I dream of 400W and staying off the front. Normalized power in my races is 300W, although “hard” ones seem to start at about 330W then settle down. I haven’t raced combined 3/4 races, but did a 10 mile time trial on the course last week at above 4th cat pace (26 mph), so perhaps I could now “just ride off the front” 8) . Not in E123 though, that’s “hang on for dear life” ride, but ultimately more rewarding.

did a 10 mile time trial on the course last week at above 4th cat pace (26 mph), so perhaps I could now “just ride off the front”

Not unless you can knock out 30+ for a minute or two before settling down to 26. See posts above – you need to create a workable gap, not just be able to ride at a decent clip.

Are people in 3/4’s genuinely able to hold 400W for any meaningful amount of time?! I’m a small guy so never going to make big power but those numbers seem crazy to me. I’ll do 300 for 20 minutes but after that I’m ****! Surely those with power numbers like that are just sailing straight through to 1/2?

Surely those with power numbers like that are just sailing straight through to 1/2?

Well a couple of ours are! Of course they are both bigger, (a lot) younger, stronger and better looking than me. If you are 68 kilos and riding flat races, you will remain 3/4 cat for a while.

Not unless you can knock out 30+ for a minute or two before settling down to 26

That’s the current race objective (in my Masters races). A minute is just under half a lap at Hillingdon.

The problem, of course, is that doing a big effort to get away sends you too far into the red and then you aren’t able to hold the steady breakaway pace that would be possible in a TT or from a steady buildup.
I can ride solo at 26mph for four hours or 28mph for two but I sure as hell couldn’t do it if I were dropping VO2 Max intervals in throughout!

Na, normally hovering around 60kg. I know I’m shit with my nose in the wind so I sure as hell stay out of it!!

Currently considering a hilly one on Sunday, need 3 points for Cat3. I might not enjoy the racing as much of I’m point hunting though and getting rid of the kids will call in another favour with the Mrs so might sack it off, feel like I’ve had a good first year scoring points in 2 out of 4 races.

Are you mainly doing crits then TiRed?

I can ride solo at 26mph for four hours or 28mph for two

On a road bike?? 😯

Nah, TT. Just trying to demonstrate the difference between holding a breakaway pace ‘fresh’ and doing it when you’ve just buried yourself to get away. It can be even worse if it’s a small group of you away as you’re then straight into an interval session (3rd cat nowadays, btw).

LS you can seriously get away from the pack with those abilities. Just wait until the peloton is tired of chasing someone else then ride off into the sunset on your own. Chances are they’ll think you’re doomed and leave you to die out there, which if you can hold 28mph for 20 mins you won’t. Man I can barely hold 20mph on my own and have done ok in some crits; it’s all about timing.

Mainly Circuit races (which aren’t strictly crits) at the moment, Road races August-October.

As for riding off the front; you don’t have to be the first. You just have to be able to bridge across to a rider or group that may have gone already. That puts me in the red, and then (hopefully) I get some recovery. In my last race I tried this, bridged to a first rider (who was half way to the front bunch), and he couldn’t work any more! We were caught for the sprint.

But if you don’t keep pushing yourself, you won’t improve. Sitting in the bunch is not a means to improvement; not even in E123 races.

Haha I know, sorry I’m not making myself clear – I’ve not always been a 3rd cat 🙂
I was just trying to say that break pace and the ability to form that break in the first place are two very different things, not always compatible.

I did the Lancaster Town Centre Crit last night (3rd & 4th Cat race). Done it before, this is now the third time it’s been held. The circuit includes a cobbled section through the town square, a short punchy climb and a lot of tight corners in quick succession, it’s very technical. Also very short – we were lapping in about 100-110 seconds.

We had a neutralised lap behind the moto but I got a shocking start, catching the cleat on the pedal and unable to engage properly or disengage to get another shot at it. Only took 10-12 seconds to remedy but that was 10-12 seconds I wasn’t putting the power down and moving up.

As I knew it would, the race blew to pieces within 2 laps and I ended up chasing more or less on my own for the entire 40 mins + 5 laps. Good fun, I was going OK and spent the whole time catching and passing riders.

Towards the end the leader caught me – he was way out in front, some overly talented Youth A – so basically we all got soundly thrashed by some 15 year old kid. 🙄
The second place rider caught me with a lap to go – another Youth A, again way out on his own with a significant gap back to 3rd place.

I ended up 17th which wasn’t too bad. I got quite into it, I do like that circuit. They’ve changed it slightly each time and the race has grown significantly, there’s some really good prize money – first place was £200! Not that I was anywhere close to that…

If you are 68 kilos and riding flat races, you will remain 3/4 cat for a while.

Yep there are so few proper hilly races out there. In some ways it’s why road racing at that level can get dull as it so often favours negative riding by people just waiting for the sprint.

Nice one Crazy-Legs. I’ve considered doing one myself but been unsure if I’d be able to get there on time. Finish work at 17:00 in Carlisle.

Nice one Crazy-Legs. I’ve considered doing one myself but been unsure if I’d be able to get there on time. Finish work at 17:00 in Carlisle.

You’re thinking of the Tuesday night crits at Salt Ayre.
This is a once-a-year event held right in the town centre. http://lc3.org.uk/

You’d be hard pushed to make it to Salt Ayre I reckon – traffic in Lancaster is horrendous around that time and there’s big roadworks around J34 too while that build that new link road to Heysham. Salt Ayre circuit is nice though – see some of my earlier posts for race reports from there.

Yes 😳

I’d get thrashed anyway… Cheers!

I used to do a bit of road racing back when there were only 3 cats and no power meters.
Circuit races and crits were never good for me. I just couldn’t hold that kind of flat out speed. I particularly remember getting dropped off the back of the bunch at Castle Coombe one time, with a few laps still to go and feeling pretty low.
I was used to training with the same guys and beating a lot of them on hills and sprints, but they seemed to be able to up their performance a notch when racing and I couldn’t.
Hilly courses suited me better, but it wasn’t long before I packed in road racing and concentrated on XC.

Well my last two races have been “interesting” I’m struggling with that weird sore throat/chesty cough that’s been going around but thought I’d have a bash anyway. Both races have started in the horrible pissing rain with a good dose of wind thrown in for good measure! Yesterday was brutal, (for me) shortened by one lap which probably made ’em go out harder. Attack after attack, I got dropped on the last kick of a climb, my chest felt like it was seizing up with a stitch and I just couldn’t get the legs to make enough ponies. Desperately tried to get back on and managed it but was in the red and got dropped again shortly after. Ended up riding the remaining 2 laps on my own, kept getting a glimpse of 2 guys behind me so that spurred me on a bit, finished 8 minutes down in 22nd 🙁 (I think). Not sure how many dropped out, E-1-2 sounded even more brutal with a couple of guys I know ending up in the same position. Tough day out, weird how I still enjoyed it…

Circuit races and crits were never good for me. I just couldn’t hold that kind of flat out speed. I particularly remember getting dropped off the back of the bunch at Castle Coombe one time, with a few laps still to go and feeling pretty low.
I was used to training with the same guys and beating a lot of them on hills and sprints, but they seemed to be able to up their performance a notch when racing and I couldn’t.
Hilly courses suited me better, but it wasn’t long before I packed in road racing and concentrated on XC.

After yesterday I’m thinking exactly the same. I had some half decent Xc results this year and I didn’t even focus on the properly, yet on the road I’m fine on the club runs with the exception of being a useless climber but can’t go that bit further. Perhaps in my case I haven’t given road racing a proper go yet – only 6 crits this year.

I’m having a natural break from cycling – family/school hols – until September when i aim to sit down and write a proper plan for next year so I won’t make any decisions just yet.

Completely o/t but one for the racers on this thread down Surrey way, a shameless plug for the HC I am running in September; KWCC Hill Climb 27/9/14[/url]

Always a good field, hoping for two current Hill Climb champions this year, an extensive prize list plus tea and cake, all by Leith Hill, what’s not to like?

Always fancied a hill climb for some perverse reason. I’ve entered!

So, the aforementioned hill climb is tomorrow, never done one, slightly nervous!

How do they work? Is the road open to cars? Ms njee20 is planning to come and watch, presumably she’ll just have to walk up to a suitable vantage point?

This is the hill, so not that long (it is Surrey!), ridden it many times, but always as part of a ride, so unsure how to pace myself!

Is that segment data glitchy, or is there really a 43.5% bit in the middle???

Edit – no idea about pacing, but as you’ve ridden it before you should be able to use the strava effort comparison to see how the fastest riders have gone

Unlike a standard TT where you have time to get up to speed, in an HC, especially a short one like that, you really have to give it some beans off the start otherwise you won’t get anywhere. At 3-4 mins think of it as VO2 max interval that you’ve started too hard. Only 1 rep though, so you can get away with it. Try and save a bit of oomph for any steep sections that might need going over. Trying to ride to an average power is a waste of time.