How long to be a credible Cat 4 or am I just crap (road content)

Kryton, you must have realised by now you can’t do well and do hard each and every day, every week, every class.

Its my first Cat 4 in a month, its not I’m racing day in day out. And its not about winning, its about finishing with the bunch (using TiRed’s scale of achievement) as a credible rider.

I’m not disagreeing with you and as I said, maybe crits aren’t for me. You have to ask though how many £10, £15, £20’s do you throw at crits just to end up with a 40 minute workout, no points and a fair amount of disappointment? I can do that in the man cave for less. I’d just like to pick up a point – 1 point – this year which for me helps me recognised I’ve achieved some level of ability at least.

I’ve just realised its almost exactly 1 year on from the op and I’m in exactly the same position. ffs..

Surely next weekend a race should take priority over a sportive?

Normally. But this is a “smash” and for me a warm up for Velothon wales on the 14th, so 130k with some group / team riding practise and pace over distance. Plus I’ve already paid.

I’ve only done one but it’s pretty clear that if you want to be good at crits you need to do lots (racecraft) and train specifically (for short hard sprints with short recovery.) I’m going to do a few more this season as I did enjoy it but know I’m never going to be particularly good at them anytime soon as I don’t train for them and don’t have the experience. Only way I might get some points is to get into a break but last race I did we averaged 28mph so no chance for the break!

If you want to in some way prove yourself on the road then you might be better off trying (as has been suggested) road races that you’re more suited to or maybe some time trialling.

The Tour of Cambridge thing, of what benefit to you is being part of the “club train”?

Group riding skills, through and off but mostly long stints at/over threshold for an extended duration, plus time in the saddle for endurance of course. It’s more constant power than the on / off of crits.

I did we averaged 28mph so no chance for the break!

Now see, I averaged 23 yesterday and you don’t race much. This is what make me think I just don’t have what’s required.

long stints at/over threshold for an extended duration, plus time in the saddle for endurance of course. It’s more constant power than the on / off of crits.

Sounds like good training for time trials 🙂

Have you thought about some coaching? Or maybe like some others have said, taking a small break to figure out what you want from racing?

Sometimes it helps just to try something completely different.

Does crit racing really matter Kryton? You want to do well in XC, concentrate on that and treat crits for what they really are – training for XC. I can hold onto the bunch in 3/4 crit races, but even that is hard work. I’m a pretty decent XCer though!

One year ago and on the first page of this thread, a very knowledge person on this subject said “To be honest, I’d say that being shelled out the back in your first race isn’t a problem. If you’re being shelled out after your 10th race you’ll know if you’re crap! First race, it’s practically expected!”…….

15 pages and one year later you stare “I’m pissed off tbh. I think I had the fitness but not the wherewithal or balls to sit up front on the line. I know this is “only” my 10th race but I had to watch two of my club (And congrats to them because I am pleased) that I ride with as more or less equals fight for top 10 yet I come away with a dnf.”

Sorry but it looks to me like it is what it is.

Sounds like good training for time trials

Well quite, I’ve just rewarded myself with 4 x 10’s at FTP on the Turbo, some on the aero bars. I’ve cheered up a bit though.

Sorry but it looks to me like it is what it is.

Maybe, but seeing as I finished in the bunch on my 8th and 9th races, I do owe it to myself to find out whether I just made a huge tactical mistake yesterday. I mean really, on the back waiting for people to clip in and then for them to get around a sharp bend whilst the leaders are 100yrd away? Stoopid is as stoopid does…

Now see, I averaged 23 yesterday and you don’t race much. This is what make me think I just don’t have what’s required.

Average speed in a crit doesn’t mean much tbh, it depends a huge amount on the weather, the course, the riders.
A 4th Cat race can often average 23mph but it’ll be achieved by ATTACK, frantic chase, catch, sit there and look at each other. So the speed goes from 28 to 18 to 28.

You tend to find E/1/2 crits are faster (26-28mph) but much steadier, that average will be achieved by sitting in a much narrower speed range.

Don’t get too disheartened by it. Every weekday throughout summer, thousands of riders go to crit races up and down the country knowing that they won’t see a sniff of a point unless they get very lucky. It’s a chance to ride at full gas without traffic, lights, shit roads, junctions and carrying food/tools etc.

My approach to crits now is to do them on my singlespeed, it makes me focus far more on tactics and positioning rather than brute force. If I can’t get into a break, I’ll bail out with 3 laps to go – drift to the back and keep out the way of the sprint as I end up spinning out above about 32mph.

You know, we coach clipping in for a reason ;-). Warm up, push to the front, lead foot at two o’clock. Bang… second foot in and accelerate away. No looking down, no big gear heroics. Pedal seals not dragging (look Keo blades are bad for this), so your second foot clips in first time.

You’re plenty fit enough but you can’t be a passenger and definitely can’t switch off mentally. In a crit, a momentary lapse in concentration will see your race over. Looks like that’s what happened, I’m afraid. Your previous performances, and the fact that dropped riders couldn’t stay with you tell me thay the engine is fine.

Pedal seals not dragging (look Keo blades are bad for this), so your second foot clips in first time.

Yep, Keo Blades…I have no trouble clipping in normally.

I’ve been shelled out the back thanks to those blades! Moved back to “lesser” Max 2 carbons and never have a problem. Shimano seals don’t seem to suffer this problem.

For the ultimate solution, see Speedplay 😉

Mine are a nightmare! (they’ve probably only done 200 miles though 😯 )

I feel for you Kryton, it sucks when stuff doesn’t go to plan. I think you need to stop comparing yourself on the club run though, it’s meaningless most of the time, no one ever goes as hard on the club run! The better riders will also sand bag a bit and make you feel stronger than you are IME. The club run’s the club run, solo is training time.

How you training? Is it all turbo work? How often are you going out, smashing it out of a slow corner then trying to hold 25mph+? For road racing I was told to mix hill efforts with stints at 25mph plus, get out there and ride at race pace for a minute, when you can do a min do 2, then 5, then 10.

Have you bought any speed yet? Get a skinsuit, they’re significantly faster when they fit well!

It’s usually specific turbo work on Tuedays, XC race on Wednesday, our clubs “with hills” 90 min smash on Thursdays and a club ride and/or race at the weekend. Tuesday sometime happens on Mondays so in rested before the race.

Time for change? Drop the turbo and get out and braaaap on the race bike, hard efforts at big MPHz on out and back routes so you’re not fooling yourself with a tailwind. What’ve you got to lose?

Kryton I’d simply hang on in.
For 2015 I’m in the usual spring position. Not quite strong enough to hang on with the top five. Or lead group. But quicker than the ‘other’ bunch.
I didn’t race in 2014, but I went well in 2013. I’ve looked back and 2013 was the same.
What I do is forget the wins or points for now. I race with the lead group, doing my work earning my place and respect. Then slowly you find yourself lasting longer. And soon the win comes and you’re contesting top five every week.

Drop the turbo and get out and braaaap on the race bike

Agreed. The Turbo has been a bit convenient lately with a busy work schedule. Time to make more of an effort and go strava hunting.

Kryton I’d simply hang on in

Also agreed. I’ve noted this afternoon my last crits were in January thats a bit more of a gap than I’d anticipated. I need more time road racing.

Also is your schedule a bit busy/conflicting for best performance?

Kryton, I’ve done 2 crits. The first I got shat out the back of following a big crash after making all the rookie mistakes, the second I had a great race tactically, kept my head and then made the mistake of thinking there was still a corner to go when actually it was the final corner so missing the sprint begin as it all went to a mess when someone crashed on that last corner. I came in behind the guy who got 8th and was awarded 11th…
At that point I thought that actually I wasn’t that bothered about the crits and stuck to TTs and CX. I got my first and only point in the Welsh Senior CX champs when I came in 20th after a bloody awful race with a big off in the 2nd lap. That single point really cheered me up.
It counted for bugger all in the grand scheme of things but I understand what you are after.
My VO2 count is low; I’ll never be a great racer. I’ve got issues with my L4/5 and L5/S1 discs, I had a SLAP repair in Jan and have a bit of collarbone missing, at 35 I’m in the struggling area and I’m finding it hard to get my w/kg up from 4.08.
I have very low points where I wonder if it’s all emotionally worth it. Financially I don’t have that much into cycling but there are definitely times when I think about just going back to pedalling for fun.
The thing is, when I’m on it, and dug into that 10m TT or tussling for places in a cross race it’s absolutely worth it. It sounds like you need to be realising the joy. Have you looked at TTs instead of crits or are you set on chasing the points?
Good luck. I’m working with a coach this year and still not 100% if it’s the right thing or not, but it is very useful to know what I’m riding each evening.

Also is your schedule a bit busy/conflicting for best performance?

this,

you have a power meter now, what does your power profile suggest is your strength?

Also is your schedule a bit busy/conflicting for best performance?

. It’s not strictly as above – it’s every other day so I get a day of rest.

Shedbrewed – wow that sounds challenging. I recently took a test to find out I have a “TT” rider profile although I’ve never done it. I should try it as I quite enjoy the head down at fast pace churning the big ring type of ride. I’m currently (when deferring to the Turbo) using TrainerRoads Road Climbs plan as this should raise my FTP and muscle endurance, and address my weakness – climbs. Before anyone suggest different for Crits I completed the Crits plan and XC race plan back to back ending a week ago.

It’s not points necessarily I’m chasing, it’s a quantative measure of success which allows me to mentally justify the time and effort, but basically show that I’m a half decent rider rather than a crap one. Having said, mind mindfulness practise tells me I shouldn’t care two hoots but I do.

Hells Bells I’ve been moaning all day, time to stop and get on with it. 😐

Crap. Now I’m think I should go back to the Crit plan and just use the club rides for the longer blocks. Aaaargh, need to put iPad down….

So much about crits is in the head, you need to try to stop over thinking things and allowing negative thoughts in – whether that be putting pressure on yourself to get in the points or worrying about not being fit enough or worrying about the riders beside you or worrying about your tyres grip in corners (and so on). Frankly if one steps back and thinks about it all there are alot of things to worry about and put doubt in ones mind but none of that is going to help in a race – whereas having a certain degree of confidence and assertiveness can be a huge aid.

Think of it in terms of mountain biking – when you are doing a jump the most important thing after getting the process right is committing to it, if you start to overthink or doubt yourself half way through then it becomes so much harder. A crit is the same in that respect.

The bad days will make the better ones seem sweeter. Or at least that’s what I’m telling myself today.

My tale of woe for the week is sneaking on the the front row of the local crit for that all important good start, only to spin out my rear wheel on a wet manhole just off the line and drop my chain. Straight out the back and chasing only to discover I’m not feeling as fresh as I thought and max HR is at least 10bpm down. Still, I got plenty of cornering practice.

The next race can _only_ be better.

I’m not expert in anything training related but it sounds to me like your just trying a bit too hard!

Why not just stop with the turbo sessions and spend more time out on the bike, take the MTB out for a few rides, fast up the hills then enjoy yourself on the way back down, same with the road bike, just take it out and do some proper rides with a few faster bits thrown in?

I can’t imagine that spending any time on a turbo is enjoyable when you could be outside riding instead.

The thing is, when I’m on it, and dug into that 10m TT or tussling for places in a cross race it’s absolutely worth it.

This +1000 . I’ll never win a race, I may finish top ten a few times a season. I WILL enjoy every second of killing myself for the team. There is no rush like it and I’m missing it so badly I’m doing turbo sessions (And that’s a first for me).

I’ve said it many times, but club rides are NOT good race training. They are either not hard enough or not easy enough (recovery). Tuesday evening BC West Thames 3/4 race at Hillingdon, no points, just good racing. Come on down!

I can’t TiiRed as Mrs K has her dance class on Tuedays, otherwise I’d be be there. Agree with the sentiment, finishing in the bunch was great.

Anyway, I’ve abandoned my “hill road race” training. It’s for one sportive in 2 weeks time Wtf was I thinking? Instead I shall repeat the last week or race week of “Crit” training where I have to be on the turbo, with my XC races indispersed until my target event at the end of July, but riding outside where possible. After that I shall focus on end of year crits, points or no. After all I enjoy them secretly. 🙂

Did I read you were training for the velothon Wales? The Caerphilly mountain climb isn’t too bad and the pull up the Blorenge is a climb of three parts but you really shouldn’t struggle up it with your form. Just enjoy all the other bits, there are some nice roads. I would wave as you passed my house but I’m away.

TCC E1234 Masters every other Wednesday? Next one is in two weeks and I should be able to marshall by then.

The Beastway XC series is on Wednesays until July 8th. Shedbrewed – yep I’ll be there.

I did my first two road races this season – first one got dropped on the descent in crap conditions, second one I got dropped but got back on when it slowed. First crit this season got dropped after 3 laps and it has to be cos I started from the back. 2nd crit of the year at a circuit I also did better at last year and sure enough I hung on with relative ease just cos the circuit suit me better. Well, being slow to get clipped in caused me a few problems for the first few laps as I had to work my way up steadily.

Have you tried open road races Kryton? Seem to me that they’re a bit more forgiving of bad tactics and if your endurance is good, you could do better. Still hard, but no one goes totally nuts off the line usually.

Kryton are you doing velothon wales?

Quick straw poll. Many on here competing and doing well at more than one discipline at a time?

Nope, I’m doing badly at all disciplines.

I did beat someone in the southern XC yesterday though, not a DNF, an actual finisher! #smallwins

I used to be able to mix it up (MTB/TT/RR) with all disciplnes ‘seriously’ and also ride all year with CX in the winter, but as I’ve got older I find that I just can’t do it anymore. So I stick to what I do best and hit CX hard with everything else thrown in for fun when I feel like it.

Reading the last couple of pages of this thread makes me think that there’s a tendency to take things far too seriously. The thing with amateur cycle racing is to realise that you’re crap. No matter how good you are, Elite, 1st cat, whatever, still crap in the grand scheme of the things. Get over that and you can start to enjoy it more.

Compete in Road, XC, track and cross. Finish top third in all four. Top 10 is a rare bonus. Will be racing TTs as my wrist won’t be up to road racing for a couple of months. Road fitness definitely helps me make the most of my limited skills and single gear in XC. Limited XC skills help me be competitive in cross.

But nothing comes close to road 😉

I’m tempted to not comment on here again, but I feel I have to say something..

K, pick one or two disciplines and stick to them only. Do the others for fun or training only then go give your wife and kids a hug on the days off..
You sound like you need a rest to me, a break from pressure only brought on by yourself in an attempt to be some superhero bike’ist.

Train and race by all means but make time for mental and physical recovery and use that time for family.. take your mind off it all… I bet whilst you are with your family you are still thinking about training/racing plans/goals.. aren’t you 😆

molgrips – Member
Kryton are you doing velothon wales?

Yes I am – will you be there Molgrips?

You sound like you need a rest to me, a break from pressure only brought on by yourself in an attempt to be some superhero bike’ist.

An interesting observation which I genuinely thank you for Bikebouy. I’m have a highly strung character but trust me, I’m not 24/7 training or racing or dieting or not sleeping over this, I think its just my writing style. I don’t want to be a superhero, just some small recognition that I’ve done something quite good. But…

I bet whilst you are with your family you are still thinking about training/racing plans/goals.. aren’t you

Yes 🙁 I put a lot of mental pressure on myself to be “good” at things, becuase most of all I’m pretty average at everything, a classic “nearly man”. That’s not a cry for attention its just an honest statement.

K, pick one or two disciplines and stick to them only.

I mulled over this last night over some Shiraz. What I’d done was to use the T d’Cambridshire and Velethon Wales as target events, and orientated part of my training plan around that. Now, becuase of my illness leading to EIB at the beginning of the year, my XC/Crit plans have only just finished and I’ve panicked over these two having not completed the third round of a training block. What I SHOULD be doing is concentrating on the short XC races and crits as my secondary target events, and the above two should just be enjoyable opportunity’s with no pressure on times and performance. As of today, that is the case.

The Bonty 24/12 is my real target for this year, with the XC stuff leading up to it basically being high performance exercises – category B races on the Friel scale of things. After the Bonty I continue monthly with Mud Sweat and gears until September, will try a TT or two for giggles and do some crits.

mental and physical recovery and use that time for family..

I have a one year old and a three year old, there is no “mental and physical recovery” in time spent with them 😉

Bonty 24/12 is my real target for this year,

What’s the specific target?