[Closed] Honister zip-wire application re-submitted

I thought it was a pretty good idea. It was a shame it was knocked back in the first place.

Fingers crossed................would it be possible to run it in reverse to get people onto the hill as well?

I personally think the zipwire is a good idea spreading the lakes appeal can surely only be a good thing.

They're hardly the most visually intrusive development - and isn't it on the site of an old slate mine?

isn't it on the site of an old slate mine

That just re-inforces my point then.

The original plans if I remember rightly, go from the upper quarry right down to the visitor centre by the road so would be fairly visible across the valley, plus having a screaming person whizz down every few minutes. Then again if it's priced the same as the 'via ferrata' in the quarry I doubt many folk will be able to afford it...

[quote=honeybadgerx ]The original plans if I remember rightly, go from the upper quarry right down to the visitor centre by the road so would be fairly visible across the valley, plus having a screaming person whizz down every few minutes. Then again if it's priced the same as the 'via ferrata' in the quarry I doubt many folk will be able to afford it...
So - this occasional screaming person would be visible to all the folk in their cars going up and down the tarmac-covered, armco-lined roadway cut into the hillside?

Did anyone see the programme BBC4 did about it a couple of weeks ago?

Was very interesting and from watching the programme it seemed most people were for it including the Lake District National Park Authority, they just came up against some stiff lobbying from 'tree huggers"!

Its a shame the guy whose idea it was is no longer around to see it if it does come to fruition.

@druidh This is always going to be the case where ever people/countryside meet, it's just to what extent things are taken one way or the other. Personally, I'd rather have minimal impact, the noise aspects of the original application were the biggest issue to me.

I was lucky enough to have a guided tour of the mine with Roly who was in the documentary and one of Mark's oldest friends. Roly talked about Mark a lot during the tour and was a really good ambassador for the mines activities and the project. The documentary didnt show Mark at his best when confronting the protestors but the Council leader was spot on when he declared their opposition to be based on not wanting to spoil the landscape and to keep it looking pretty for the walkers and effectively keeping everyone else out of the lake district.

Mark had some awesome ideas for old parts of the mine including a recording studio and theatre. Think of the Minack Theatre in terms of an equivilent atmospheric setting but 100ft underground with the potential for total darkness!...

we built an inukshuk just off the path, if anyone sees it, let me know its still there...

Having spent a bit of time riding around the area above aberfoyle, which has two of the longest zip wires in the UK, the idea that noise is a problem is completely preposterous. It's a working mine ffs.

so would be fairly visible across the valley

So is the slate mine - both side of the valley are heavily scarred with old and existing mine workings.

the noise aspects of the original application were the biggest issue to me.

Have you ever seen (and heard) the trucks heading up to and down from the top quarry ? The noise and visibility of the zipwire would be minimal by comparison.

I was up that way riding on Saturday and to be honest, the addition of a zip line would make no difference to my enjoyment of the fells. Like others have said, it is a working mine with a well used tarmac road leading through the pass.

I remember watching the Gryff Rhys Jones documentary "Mountain" that featured Mark. I was saddened to hear of his untimely death in a helicopter accident last year. He seemed to have a real sense of pride in the mine and to see it as it is now is a credit to his hard work and vision.

I'm sorry but I don't regard the fells as being the exclusive domain of wusers who perhaps want to pretend the real world doesn't exist. I hope that it gets approved as it may introduce more folk to the outdoors and help sustain the mine as a working operation.

Things like this aren't appropriate in an unspoiled, remote landscape. So Honister is absolutely perfect for it.

Mrs GDRS and I had a go on this thing in the voges two summers ago - and I found this clip on youtube of a French guy having a go.

This is now what I call a zip wire.

Sounds like the fun police at work.

We want you to come to the countryside, but you cant make any noise whilst you enjoy it. FFS come on, look at the US, they moved out an entire village so it could be flooded and turned into a watersports and leisure lake.

On reflection scrub that, too off topic for a biking forum IMO.

[s]I don't know the area but saw the doc .....[/s]

Fantasticable???

................would it be possible to run it in reverse to get people onto the hill as well

How about looping it round, so as a fat person comes down, a lightweight person flies up on another wire 🙂

this would be mint.

Was there a couple of months back doing the via Ferrara a great day for the price. They were very positive about it going ahead this time. Can't wait.

I was initially against the idea. Probably partly because my opinion of Mark was pretty low after the stupid comments he made about OMM. However having looked properly at what they are proposing and all the implications, it has to be a positive thing for the area.

I used to be against the plan but have changed my mind now.

Noise? This would be limited to a small area of a fairly busy road pass.

Other users of the Lakes make far more widespread noise without too many complaints - I'm talking about microlights and powered paragliders - it's like having a 2-stroke motocross bike at full throttle passing overhead at a snail's pace! Bloody racket!

Squeaky breaks are another menace!

I was initially against the idea. Probably partly because my opinion of Mark was pretty low after the stupid comments he made about OMM.

This was my stance as well, didn't know he'd been killed though. Just occurred to me though that I don't really care, it won't be a huge eyesore I suppose.

Its a slate quarry so the impact must be miniable

Its desirable that things that create jobs are allowed into the lakes

less keen on things that increase traffic. But that would include almost the things I do in the lakes

PS i did a huge zip wire in Switzerland. It was surprising dull, despite the huge speed

I did the via ferrata there and enjoyed it. fairly adventurous for tourist attraction

[url= http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/10150087.Honister_Zip_wire_plan_rejected_by_Lake_District_National_Park_planners/?ref=nthttp:// ]Zip-wire application has been rejected again[/url]:

The Lake District are going to find themselves in a very deep hole if they fail to cater for the next generation of people wanting to enjoy the countryside. It can't survive on short walks and tea shops for ever...

Rachel

...short walks and coffee shops????

Ok, leaving aside the stats on how far the average visitor strays from his/her car, that is a little extreme Rachel. The LDNP caters for an enormous range of outdoor activities and needs to balance many conflicting interests while doing so eg, waterskiing versus noise pollution etc. Perhaps that is why it is such a successfully NP? On the whole it does it pretty good job of it. At my last count there are two zip wires open to the general public and other limited access ones. That's not to say that I agree with the decision, just that (as the original documentary showed) its a complex issue.

It can't survive on short walks and tea shops for ever..

Why not? As the rest of the country gets busier and busier, the appeal of such things will only increase.

Particularly if everyone has this attitude:

So - this occasional screaming person would be visible to all the folk in their cars going up and down the tarmac-covered, armco-lined roadway cut into the hillside?

and decides that the existence of a road means that building anything else is fair game...

Yes, sorry, I was being way too simplistic. I was just trying to emphasise the need to look outside the "traditional" for things that would draw in people not otherwise visiting the area. Whilst many activities do go on, many are performed despite the LDNP rather than as encouraged by it.

To have turned down something for making a noise etc etc, [b]next to a mine[/b], is a bit "odd"...

Rachel

Makes for a good GSCE geography case study in sustainable development though. The noise pollution is interesting though especially in the context of waterskiing on Windermere.

I understand your point Rachel but still would dispute the "despite the LDNP" bit though!

The Lake District are going to find themselves in a very deep hole if they fail to cater for the next generation of people wanting to enjoy the countryside. It can't survive on short walks and tea shops for ever...

You know, it probably can

I'm within about an hour of the Lakes and go there fairly regularly, sometimes to cycle or walk and other times just for a cup of tea.
I don't know anyone else [in my extended family at least] that goes there for anything much more than a stroll and a cuppa.

the open fell should remain free from man-made developments

Yeh, not like the thousands of miles of footpaths scarring the land.
They weren't man-made were they 🙄

And of course the miles and miles of drystone wall, completely natural they are 🙄

etc etc

“Zip-wires and GoApe tree assault courses are best located in forest settings as they are in other parts of the UK.”

I can understand a tree assault course being in the woods, but how hard is it to see the appeal of a zip wire across the valley. It'd be a right laugh! It'll appeal to far more tourists than the Via Ferrata would and bring in more cash to keep the slate mine working.

official reason given for the rejection was 'impact on the landscape'

Yeh, not like the thousands of miles of footpaths scarring the land.
They weren't man-made were they

And of course the miles and miles of drystone wall, completely natural they are

etc etc

So - this occasional screaming person would be visible to all the folk in their cars going up and down the tarmac-covered, armco-lined roadway cut into the hillside?

In fact, everywhere you look, you can see the effect humans have had on the land, unless is somewhere covered in native forest. "Open Fell" is in itself man-made.

Seriously, does anyone actually believe these are valid arguments for further development? 😯

Yes, I believe that the proposed development would have a lower level of intrusion to the landscape than what's currently there. In light of that undeniable fact, it's nonsense to suggest it would have a significant impact.

Seriously, does anyone actually believe these are valid arguments for further development?

No, but they're valid counter arguments to those who suggest no more development because of "impact on the landscape", as appears to be the case here.

No they're not.

If you follow that argument, you just continually develop 'already developed' things infinitely. You could just leave them as they are and not let them get any 'worse'...

No, but they're valid counter arguments to those who suggest no more development because of "impact on the landscape"

They're fairly valid if your argument is there's already been enough impactive development

If you follow that argument, you just continually develop 'already developed' things infinitely.

Which is surely better than developing non-developed things? In any case, the argument appears to be "don't spoil this unspoilt wilderness" when it's not unspoilt wilderness.

Genuinly sorry to hear that.

We were up the top there at the end of last year messing about on the slag heaps and the wife turned up in a 4x4 (we thought to bollok us). Actually she just wanted to say she really wanted to encourage more young people to come to the area and to enjoy our day; but in future could we let her know as they are sometimes blasting!

Agree that existing eyesores aren't a reason to build more eyesores; however not sure a 20mm thick steel cable with the odd terified punter dangling from it fits that description.

[IMG] [/IMG]

You have a point there.

But why does it need developing at all? So a reasonably big business can make more money? A single extra 'attraction' isn't going to attract more visitors.

There are zip wires only a few miles away in Whinlatter.

EDIT - I'm not sure what I think about the zip wire in question. I just don't like the argument that because Borrowdale is already 'scarred', it's fair game to put more stuff in there. I'd say the argument is 'don't do anything else to this already damaged close-as-we've-got-to-wilderness'.

A single extra 'attraction' isn't going to attract more visitors.

Why not?

Reasonably big business making more money = reasonably big business employing more people.

The point isn't that it doesn't matter what you do there because it's already scarred, it's that the impact of this would be so minimal as to be insignificant.

Employing more local people? They seem to be the ones objecting to the development.

Anyway, I don't know enough about that. As I said, I just don't like the argument that it's ok to build on already 'damaged' areas, which is what a fair few people seem to be suggesting.

I just don't like the argument that because Borrowdale is already 'scarred', it's fair game to put more stuff in there. I'd say the argument is 'don't do anything else to this already damaged close-as-we've-got-to-wilderness'.

EDIT:

Employing more local people? They seem to be the ones objecting to the development

Fix the Fells continually create incredible scars across the fells with the footpaths they build, and that's with the blessing of the National Park. That's also a part of the problem: there's an inconsistency with the decisions made by the park authority, Allerdale, and the County Council.

I'm certainly not going to disagree with that! It doesn't really affect my view though.

There are zip wires only a few miles away in Whinlatter

I'd say the argument is 'don't do anything else to this already damaged close-as-we've-got-to-wilderness'.

I'd suggest that while it may have little visual impact, people screaming as they go and all this extra traffic that aracer reckons there will be would have an impact. And that while it may be a small impact, any increase at all is arguably a step in the wrong direction.

(I'm not really sure what I think about all this. I don't want to see 4x4s banned from anywhere, and yet I'm arguing against a zip wire. Today's been a long day...)

all this extra traffic that aracer reckons there will be would have an impact.

Ban cars from the LDNP then.

Just because the area has already developed into what can be loosely described as a tourist attraction from a working mine/quarry does not give the precedent to develop another 'attraction'.

Employing more local people? They seem to be the ones objecting to the development.

Is that "local people" as in people from the area who might need a job, or who have offspring who need jobs, or is that "local people" as in retired to the Lake District five years ago and got nothing better to do than complain to the council about anything and everything "new fangled"?

Can't wait to have a go!
I'm a local by the way... 😀

Bearing in mind it was recommended for approval it'll probably get allowed on appeal

Unfortunately, contrary to perhaps understandable superficial impressions, most of Honister Crag is in fact the very reverse of 'man-made'. It's in fact arguably the wildest bit of crag in England.

The site is an SSSI primarily because it is a stronghold of an extremely scarce vegetation community that is both extremely vulnerable to disturbance and, in terms the area it covers at Honister, unique south of the border.

Most of the broad ledge systems you see as you look up at the crag from the road carry extensive stands of what's known as 'Tall herb' communities. These are scarce habitat types, related to the alpine meadows of continental Europe. They are typically found on un- or lightly grazed upland cliff ledges, and restricted to base-rich substrates and sheltered situations.

Tall herb is highly valued for both representing one of the few totally natural habitats surviving in Britain and for providing a refuge for rare, grazing-sensitive, montane plants. As you can imagine, the bulk of the habitat - which is never abundant anywhere in the UK, is to be found in the Scottish Highlands. Honister is therefore outstanding in possessing a relative large amount of these plant communities; it is likely to possess more than half the Tall Herb to be found south of the border.

Unfortunately, it is incredibly easy to scuff away the plant cover by repeated footfall. The reason Honister Crag is such a stronghold is that the steep north-facing cliff ledges have been mostly inaccessible to grazing animals and humans, apart from, until now, the occasional adventurous scrambler or climber.

The advent of the cableways and stapled rock that the Honister company have put in has changed all that however and the reason why the company got fined nearly £30,000 by Natural England was because they originally put in a new 'Via Ferrata' without consultation - which resulted in a large amount of damage to the Tall herb stands.

This is why controversy over the proposed Zip Wire development isn't just about aesthetics - increasing the numbers of people traversing formerly untrodden ground is going to increase the risk of degrading an already-threatened part of our natural heritage. (The new application advocates using the existing Via Ferrate to gain access to the launching point - which itself would now be constructed on the Crag itself, rather than on the summit slopes as in the previous application. Implicit in this application therefore is that there will be a large increase in users and therefore potential footfall in sensitive areas).

You can see the damage the extent Via Ferrate is having in the pic below. Before it was put in the eroded ledge at the bottom was a stronghold of the scarce upland plant Globefower. Now it's nearly all been scuffed away and the rest is following it due to the continual passage of punters.
[img] http://www.flickr.com/photos/36689155@N02/8369243891/in/photostream/lightbox/ [/img]