Hello I'm in China

YOU HAD THE SHITS YET?

Edit: the following reply was written in response to Hora’s last post on the previous page. He has since edited what was a perfectly reasonable question to which I relpied as follows:

Not quite, Hora, for your analogy to work the Italian would have to work a competitor based in Belgian when he’s not looking after the Italian family business he part owns.

Daveplanetx on “another forum”:

“Our new road frame nanolight – again is an open model , made by xpace , designed by Paul Farrell , its been tested by Lovatt , and signed off . Its made to the same standards , material , tecnology as the highest spec bikes from Merckx and Fondriest . Should be exclusive to us in the uk as part of our long term deal (they are producing our carbon 29er)”

*wanders off wishing Edukator would just say what the real problem he has with planet-x/on-one is*

*wanders off wishing Edukator would just say what the real problem he has with planet-x/on-one is*

Could it be the same as mine?

we won’t know unless he says…

Just intrigued by Brant’s statement Wwaswas.

Roberto Billato started a company called Fibertek[/url] in May last year.

So now a second question for Brant. Who makes PlanetX/On-One frames? Xpace as DaveplanetX stated in March 2010 or have you changed to Fibretek as your post on the previous page implies? Both very much Chinese companies but one does have an Italian manager.

Edukator why does it matter?

Grant say hello to Phil for me

“started with” not “started” in my last text.

Edukator – they changed factories and then there was a bit of a problem with quantities built which delayed things.

so what your chart shows is that people prefer to buy somethign cheaper if they can find the same quality at a lower price and that manufacturing is subject to the laws of supply and demand?

and the same people have a winge about high unemployment.

My chart shows that there are now 500 people working in a Chinese factory that could be working in a British factory. I could link the UK unemployment chart but I’m sure you’re aware of current unemployment levels.

Supply and demand is all very well but simply isn’t being allowed to work. The Chinese government controls the demand for dollars to maintain a favourable Yuan exchange rate – intervention. A lack of mobility of labour means the Chinese can’t move to better paid jobs – they’re stuck in China. If we don’t intervene too then our main export will continue to be jobs.

We need to create the economic conditions that mean ON-One and Planetx can make their frames and other kit at competetive prices in the UK and Europe. Until then, every frame imported is another nail in our economic coffin.

I don’t want free trade, I want fair trade.

did I read earlier that you’re in France Edukator – do you live there?

I don’t want free trade, I want fair trade.

That would be novel, don’t think there has ever been ‘fair’ trade. Always someone somewhere leveraging things for their own benefits. Empire anyone?

Yes, Wwaswas, I used to import British made bicycle frames into France in the 90s would you believe. My British and French suppliers from that period that are still in business have all jumped on the “Made in Taiwan” bandwagon (when it’s not Tunisia or Malaysia). I bought a Quicksilver top last week wrongly assuming it would still be “Made in France”. No chance, China.

Supply and demand is all very well but simply isn’t being allowed to work. The Chinese government controls the demand for dollars to maintain a favourable Yuan exchange rate – intervention. A lack of mobility of labour means the Chinese can’t move to better paid jobs – they’re stuck in China. If we don’t intervene too then our main export will continue to be jobs.

are we allowed to buy the (taiwanese) steel frames?

so, reality is you’re prepared to do anything to see the UK a success except live there, buy things and pay taxes?

not trying to be harsh but you seem to be tryign to give brant and dave a kicking on this thread when what they’re doing reflects the business practices of about 99% of the uk bike industry and probably not far off that for cars, white goods etc etc.

we’ve established that they do make CF frames at a factory with an Italian Manager and now you’ve moved on to makign brant the figurehead for the demise of Britains industrial output?

There are still British frame builders that will build you a frame with a full set of Reynolds or Columbus tubes. I won’t name them on Brant’s thread but if you want a top quality steel frame you can still buy British.

I bought a Curtis frame recently, british made from british T45 tubes but I wouldn’t have paid the original £750 asking price even though it’s a really lovely bit of kit – it’s £250 more than a Cotic.

There will always be a market for handmade examples of British engineerign like custom bike frames and Bristol cars but we’re never going to go back to a whole town built around a factory producing producing them for export all over th world in huge numbers.

We need to create the economic conditions that mean ON-One and Planetx can make their frames and other kit at competetive prices in the UK and Europe. Until then, every frame imported is another nail in our economic coffin.

I sort of see where you’re coming from, but it may also be a case of if the playing field was even the products would no longer be viable in any country and we still wouldn’t have those jobs.
I.e. if it cost the same to make the product in China as it does in the UK, people in the UK wouldn’t be able to afford the product. Of course many people might see that as a good thing – the demise of consumerism. But I think that’s probably another thread.

Largest country in the world with one time zone China!

My presence on the thread from the start was to point out that the globalisation that many moan about on STW is happening right in front of their eyes on STW as Brant does his shopping in Taiwan.

I really think Brant’s Italian claim is tenuous to say the least. That he buys form a Chinesse company founded by a Chinese in 2005 employing about 500 people of which one is Itlaian since May last year doesn’t make his bikes very Italian.

I certainly haven’t given him a kicking and didn’t intend to, he doesn’t seem upset, you do, Wwaswas. He is part of a system that benefit a few but is disasterous for the long-term health of the British economy, I’m sure he is intelligent and perceptive enough to know that.

So what is viable in the UK now, Ian? Britain enjoyed an inward investment boom in the 80s, and now? Even aerospace is soon to be confronted with Chinese competition. Anything we can do they can do cheaper.

I think the Italian bit was a joke, tbh 🙂

I’m not upset I just dont; understand why you picked this thread to start berating a small part of the UK bike industry with what is, as you say, a general concern about the free market, the fair market, the uk economy, the world economy and the chinese economy?

Everyone on here understands where the things they buy are manufacutred. P-X/On-one, Cotic etc all ‘add value’ to what they import in some form or another either before it’s made or before sellign it on so they’re not just shifting boxes.

The British have spent hundreds of years importign stuff to turn a profit, it used to be tea, now it’s just ‘stuff’ but it’s not new.

Out of interest when you were importing British bikes/frames to France did French people accuse you of undermining their industry as I can’t really see it was any different to what brant does?

meh, only the neuveaux riche are complaining.

how was the merino factory and how cheap can i get a light as bright as a star, you know if the star was much closer than it is usually, just a star would be a step backwards

My chart shows that there are now 500 people working in a Chinese factory that could be working in a British factory

Hah, not likely. The frames would cost many times more, and your sales would be far lower so there wouldn’t be 500 people employed. Lots of frames ARE still made here anyway.

I’d expect a more intelligent post from you Edukator.

Let the Chinese do what they can well (make stuff cheaply) and let us do what we can do well (make money form money and innovate).

Thank you for the insult, Molgrips. From you I’ll take it as a compliment. 8)

Whilst there are anomalies I’d like to see go in Europe such as Ireland’s 12.5% company tax rate and Holland’s musician’s tax rate that are clearly intended to gain a competetive advantage the playing field is reasonably flat in Europe. I’ve no doubt me selling British Frames in France irritated some but no more than Time selling frames in the UK. You can sell on quality you know, it’s just that the market is smaller than if you sell on price.

We have seven different carbon frame factories we work with at present, and a carbon rim factory too. And that’s me counting on my fingers at ten past one in the morning.
I am seeing (god willing and with a following wind) three of our carbon factories tommorow, two on Thursday, one on Saturday and saw one on Monday.
We don’t get everything made in one place.
There is no conspiracy.
And actually I think Roberto is Vice General manager if I am being accurate.

It’s a long time since March 2010.

You can sell on quality you know

Yep, but in smaller numbers. Shall I buy an Orange P7 frame (are they even made here still?) for £465 or a 456 for £200…

P7’s aren’t made here. But 456’s are made in the town I am in now.

Ther you are, Wwaswas, Brant doesn’t let some buy-european keyboard warrior ruffle his feathers or get in the way of business, nor should you.

I wasn’t ruffled, just confused…

I asked a uk builder to quote me for a uk made 853 frame.
I did it after getting all emotional and guilty about the decline of the British steel industry around our Magna warehouse.
Price that came back, for 100pc, all 18in was surprising and would be £999 at rrp with our usual margins. Infact less margin.
Not good.

I’m going to chip in here (see if anyone can guess why). I’m going to make a wild stab in the dark about why you ended up with the £999 retail price and it can be summed up in one word, infrastructure. I’m going to guess that the framebuilder you approached wasn’t set up for doing production runs of 10 never mind 100 and they would have struggled with both the workload and small details like decals and paint on that scale. I would agree that frames could be made in the UK, but at the moment there is no one set up to do production runs for other people. Those that build here, basically do it for themselves so don’t have the extra capacity to take on other peoples work too.

If we had the time and resources to do it, I would set up a proper factory here straight away and I genuinely believe we could build stuff for the same price that anyone else can and pay proper british wages but it would take time and commitment from brands such as On-one/Cotic/Dialled etc to trust that a UK product could work. As it stands, they do it better and cheaper than we can so that’s where the brands mentioned above will go (not a criticism bty, it’s the sensible business decision)

Someone touched on it earlier, we invent something, get good at it, get bad at it then make someone else do it for us then we start the cycle again. I wonder how long this can go on for, how much crap can we invent before we have nothing to do ourselves?

Interested, 18BikesMatt – why do you think you could produce frames at the same price and quality whilst paying your staff what.. 5 times more? How much more is it?

how much crap can we invent before we have nothing to do ourselves?

Loads. Teleporters, replicators, hover cars, antimatter energy.. where we do well in industry is high tech stuff. We are actually quite good at that. One of our main manufacturing industries is spaceship components, afaik.

What size order do you need?
I can take 1000 frames a year.

There are still British frame builders that will build you a frame with a full set of Reynolds or Columbus tubes. I won’t name them on Brant’s thread but if you want a top quality steel frame you can still buy British.

why can’t you name them? you don’t work in the industry do you?
is this a paid for advertorial thread? or are we not allowed to mention a brand other than those owned/distributed by planet-x?

maybe brant should add a disclaimer ‘*other brands may be available’ consult your LBS’

I did mrsmith but I think I got away with it.

ok well here’s a pretty picture as i don’t work in the industry