Grouse moor licencing, Scotland.

Re licensing, that was my understanding also. The risk isn’t to an individual getting a criminal conviction, the risk is to the entire business model through risk of losing the license.

Then if an estate continues anyway it’s much easier to prosecute.

A gamekeeper will have to choose between their job vanishing and getting away with a (justified in their mind) crime.

Not entirely true, the gamekeeper theoretically could retain their job (and way of life) by shifting to a different method of shooting with a reduced bag size. Whether their is enough market for other types of hunting I don’t know. Certainly big bag shoots and monoculture grouse moors* are terrible environment if you want to see a greater range of flora and fauna diversity. I do have a fair chunk of inbuilt prejudice against the type of person that goes on big grouse shoots, based on those I’ve met I’m sceptical they’re prepared to put in the extra work.

*I’m all to aware of the shooting sector attempts to claim they acts as stewards for wildlife, some of them I’ve met even seem to believe it. But I’ve yet to see any evidence for it. I’ve been fairly incredulous at times listening to a gamekeeper talk about wildlife whilst stood in a Glen devoid (or as devoid as they could manage it) of almost anything that doesn’t support grouse or deer.

Piemionster – the whole conservation thing is a lie built up to allow them to kill predators that might kill some birds. read up on Strathbraan wader group for a very obvious example.

the area that is covered by this group is 90% grouse moors. they tried to use the pretext of protecting curlews so get licenses to kill ravens ( an would then use this as cover to kill raptors “by mistake” ) SNH are too close to the shooters and were about to give them the license to kill ravens ( a protected species) but the real conservationists managed to get a judicial review and stopped them.

conservation means increasing biodiversity – not monoculture grouse or deer farms. the two are fundamentally incompatible

Because of the high density of birds thet they try to create it creates good opportunities for predators especially mustelids ( stoats etc) – so they then trap for mustelids. its disgusting. almost all of these traps are illegally managed as well. They are supposed to be checked at intervals to prevent suffering – the number of traps and the number of staff available to check means its simply impossible for the checks to happen.

If they really cared about conservation and wildlife then there would be healthy populations of predators on grouse moors. the fact there is not shows how little they care about conservation

m not convinced licencing will work in this context.

I am increasingly of the view that if the SGA oppose something, it it likely to be a thing that is good for conservation, good for the environment or good for the economy (or any combination of these) The more angry it makes the SGA, the better the likely impact and the more I support it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-58270076

5 Eagles found dead in the Western Isles

That’s heart breaking.

I’m interested in more detail – surely it’s unusual to find two clusters of raptor deaths in same time period?

Those lovely folk in the “Strathbraan wader group” have shot a peregrine now ( well November actually but for some reason the police despite dropping the investigation refused to publicise it at all or make any details public)

the criminal conspiracy strikes again. Utter shits.

Matt – there does not seem to be any more info on those 5 eagles

IIRC some crofters are unhappy about the rise in eagle populations giving rise to them taking lambs but any link would be pure conjecture

I’m intrigued why the police seemed to keep quiet. Perhaps hoping someone might speak out?

Nope – they refused to even make a public appeal for information. No obvious reason

source – Raptor persecution UK but they have direct quotes from the police. My guess is simply letting it drop down the priorities but I am suspicious about links with the criminal conspiracy. It would not be the first time

At first I was told that no press release was planned “until I have done a little bit more enquiry in to the circumstances“.

Fair enough.

Three months later I asked again but got no response. I tried again at four months and then finally five months later I was told, “There was no need for us to put out anything in the press from our perspective“, and “As you say from the evidence we have, we will never know where and when it was shot“.

Good grief.

Where’s the x-ray of the shot bird? An examination of its injuries (e.g. broken wings) would provide a pretty good indication of whether it was shot close to where it had been found dead, or whether it might have had the capacity to fly several miles before succumbing to its injuries. In which case, an appeal for information would have been a logical next-step, surely?

And if the police decide to say nothing, as they have in this case, where is the public record of this offence? It’s been almost a year since it was found.

How many more raptor persecution crimes are Police Scotland keeping quiet about? Quite a few, as it happens. More to come….

It will be interesting to see how the Green / SNP partnership changes things. Everyone has to compromise and the greens need to decide which hills to die on (sic) the greens do have some fine words to say about grouse moors – lets see if they force action

the Removal of Fergus Ewing will help greatly tho.

Slight hijack, but a Strava acquaintance was riding near Strathbraan on estate landy tracks. He pass a gamekeeper who apparently ‘got shirty’.

Assuming it’s a grouse moor, what is reasonable/responsible access behaviour suring shooting season?

I remember phoning a few estates during deer stalking season several years ago, they weren’t even remotely interested in someone passing by on an estate track (I think their words were “you can’t stalk from a landrover” 😁 )

Basically its the usual – you can access so long as you are not being a dick! Being asked to alter your route may be reasonable but being told ” get off my land” is not.

I rode right thru the middle of a shoot once – I was politely asked to please move over the brow of the hill asap I had stopped to check my map) – a reasonable request I complied with

guidance on the MCofS site probably.

Strathbraan are a particularly vile bunch with a terrible record on raptor persecution and access issues

The only thing I can find is on the ramblers site which says:

Various provisions ensure that access rights do not interfere with other sporting activities while the Minister made it clear that these sections did not apply to areas like pheasant woods and grouse moors.

so from that then there is no access issue on grouse moors unlike deer stalking which is probably why I cannot see anything on grouse moors on the MCofS site

He was probably grumpy because he knows people utilising access rights keep on finding dead raptors

Random aside – anyone know of a map (or OS overlay) to easily determine the specific estate which owns the land at an exact spot? Doing lots of work organising groups doing expeds at the moment across the entire Highland, Moray and some of Argyll and an easy way (beyond just knowing) which estate is relevant would be great. It’s not always obvious.

The best guide I ever saw was “Heading for the Scottish Hills” but that’s well out of date now. Land ownership in Scotland is clouded in mystery anyway and I don’t think there is an accurate record anywhere. If you can find that book, then most of the estate boundaries will still be right, it’s just that the contact details will have changed.

Edit: there’s now an online version

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/practical-guide-all/heading-scottish-hills

Slight hijack, but a Strava acquaintance was riding near Strathbraan on estate landy tracks. He pass a gamekeeper who apparently ‘got shirty’.

Which Strathbraan/Strathbran? The one between Amulree and Dunkeld I’ve some history with…

Strathbraan is an area which has a few estates / grouse moors IIRC

edit – thats not quite what you were asking – Doh!

Same bunch of shits in Strathbraan

Ian Thomson, Head of Investigations at RSPB Scotland has just tweeted the following:

‘The dead peregrine was found during a police/SSPCA follow-up to incidents of cage trap abuse on the same estate – eg. this LE Owl had been illegally held in a trap, in pouring rain, for >24hrs. IMO there is no legitimate reason for a grouse moor be using crow traps in October…‘

Out of control criminal cons[piracy.

Which Strathbraan/Strathbran? The one between Amulree and Dunkeld I’ve some history with…

Glen Almond actually, just north of Auchnafree Hill

He was probably grumpy because he knows people utilising access rights keep on finding dead raptors

Or might take a photo of a gamekeeper deciding to exercise their eagle owl by tying it to a perch and sitting in the heather nearby.

Lolz

Matt – there does not seem to be any more info on those 5 eagles

Speaking of missing eagles. A tag which mysteriously failed back in 2012 has been found in Loch an t-Seillich.
Whilst I am sure there is an innocent explanation, as with the one where the eagle got annoyed with a tag so took it off and wrapped it in a lead sheet before throwing it in a river, currently the police dont seem able to think of it and so have sent their diving team to see if there is anything else of interest in there.

story about it

Consultation on the management plan for the cairngorm national park. NO specific mention of raptor persecution but a place to add it in your comments

https://cairngormsviews.commonplace.is/

A link to some data on estate boundaries etc

http://www.whoownsscotland.org.uk/

Packham has had and arson attack on his house – just the latest in a long line of attacks on him.

Criminal conspiracy again.

tjagain
Full Member
Packham has had and arson attack on his house – just the latest in a long line of attacks on him.

I saw that as well , bonkers that people are going that far to intimidate. The BBC interview revealed all of the dead animals he’s had left on his property.. so do you think this is rich toffy getting his lackies to go and make him feel uncomfortable?

Nope
It’s idiots pure and simple.
More likely to be working class shooters who , quite frankly, hate his guts.

Riiiight

He has clearly been attacked by fox hunters in the past. Packham is hated right across the “industry”

the whole shooting / hunting “industry” of all types is a huge criminal conspiracy

Criminal activity widespread in every sector of hunting and shooting. A criminal conspiracy is the only way to describe it.

As an aside, he did post a link this morning to vote on an AGM matter for the National Trust, to stop trail hunting on NT land. You need you NT number to vote.
link is here and it is voting for the motion; https://secure.cesvotes.com/V3-1-0/nt21/en/login?bbp=30978&x=-1&fbclid=IwAR14ibOETMXNUXcbYCSlbCNo9LgGkhhBenUaaLj9Bh-u-u62n9M8e9wk2fk

As an aside, he did post a link this morning to vote on an AGM matter for the National Trust, to stop trail hunting on NT land. You need you NT number to vote.
link is here and it is voting for the motion; https://secure.cesvotes.com/V3-1-0/nt21/en/login?bbp=30978&x=-1&fbclid=IwAR14ibOETMXNUXcbYCSlbCNo9LgGkhhBenUaaLj9Bh-u-u62n9M8e9wk2fk

As a total aide, if you’re voting in the NT AGM there is a group called Restore Trust who are anti-woke/pro-gammon – I couldn’t possibly suggest that having a look at their website would be a guide how not to vote.

Riiiight

He has clearly been attacked by fox hunters in the past. Packham is hated right across the “industry”

the whole shooting / hunting “industry” of all types is a huge criminal conspiracy

Criminal activity widespread in every sector of hunting and shooting. A criminal conspiracy is the only way to describe it.

No, I’d say Brads is spot on. You’re just being daft. As for criminal activity in shooting (as distinct from hunting) proof please or I call BS.

More likely to be working class shooters who , quite frankly, hate his guts

What makes you say working class? A genuine question.

Because most driven bird shooters are exactly that, working class.

Who cares what class they are – its a huge criminal conspiracy.

Squirrelking

raptor killings – all evidenced and happens in every area of the UK where there are grouse moors. 1/3 of all eagles in scotland end their lives prematurely on grouse moors

Illegal trapping of mustelids – yes they are allowed to trap but there is no way on earth the traps are checked regularly enough

larsen traps for raptors again on grouse moors

Possession of illegal poisons

Ayttack on individuals both online and physically

Overuse of Muirburn

do I really need to put up a list of every incident? I suggest you read the Werrity report and the data from the raptor study group

How about those two eagle tags found wrapped in lead and chucked in lochs

Thats the criminal activity

the conspiracy comes from the fact that no one ever breaks the silence ( or hardly ever) thats what turns it into a criminal conspiracy. Everyone knows these crimes are commonplace on grouse moors but getting thru the omerta is virtually impossible

Because most driven bird shooters are exactly that, working class.

That is news to me.

Have you a source/research on that you can share?

A lifetime of shooting is all the source I have.
The vast majority of driven bird syndicates are small farm pheasant shoots populated by painter and decorators and taxi drivers ,council bin men etc.

Large estate pheasant syndicates tend to be local business owners, undertakers, joinery firm owners , scrap metal dealers etc. There are far less of these types than the smaller farm ones and they usually try and have partridge days as well..

Grouse is mostly bought by the day (Thats your expensive “upper class” shoots). Partridge is mostly bought by the day by the same guys who are in small farm syndicate members.

Thank you.

@tjagain Read what I said again, that’s the hunting industry by any other name. Don’t bring the rest of shooting into it.

@matt_outandabout I’ve known a few shooters over the years and that ties in with what Brads says. To be fair most folk who do shoot tend to keep themselves to themselves for obvious (licencing) reasons.

Squirrelking – driven grouse moors are shooting. Not hunting.

Pheasant and partidge shoots are perhaps not as culpable but they still are with the illegal trapping of mustalids and other predators and other very dubious practices including some raptor killings

At least with Pheasant shoots you get the tree cover I suppose

Make no mistake tho – we are seeing the beginning of the end of bloodsports simply because of the huge criminal element.

Don’t close your eyes to it.

I know you hope that your drama is actually fact, but it’s really not.
But that’s ok it’s your opinion.