Grouse moor licencing, Scotland.

Corvid and fox numbers will settle naturally if the food sources are restricted due to the lack of game bird shooting.

Foxes are no issue generally but corvids may need culling still. As matt says scotlands ecology is so far out of balance it needs to be managed. Same with deer. they need to be culled. don’t conflate deer stalking estates with Grouse moors – deer stalking estates are much less dangerous to other animals than grouse moors where they kill everything bar the grouse.

Do you mean no convictions? If you do that is very different to saying no crimes took place. We all know how it is nearly impossible to secure enough evidence to convict wildlife crime on vast countryside estates

No, what I mean is that in all my time involved in it, no wildlife crimes took place. It’s very well run and responsibly managed.

It’s also a massive commercial pheasant / partridge shoot. Not a grouse moor although it has masses of moorland.

I know everyone involved in it and have worked closely with them all being heavily involved in the keepering and pest control sides.

Killing BoP was not even a considered thing , not even joked about.

Unlike every farm I’ve shot for, who have nearly all asked me to kill badgers ! lol now that lot, they can commit a wildlife crime or two !

And no I’m not “deflecting” Simply stating.

Wilson should never work in shooting again, but he will.

Interesting articles on the farming side of things from Scotland The Big Picture

https://www.scotlandbigpicture.com/rewilding-stories/the-wings-of-change

https://www.scotlandbigpicture.com/rewilding-stories/farming-fears-and-folly

Good articles, thanks

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/scotland-choose-rewilding-tickets-161764789841?aff=ebdssbonlinesearch

If anyone is interested, free access. I’ve no idea if it’ll be any good.

Join the Scottish Rewilding Alliance for the launch of its new film Choices, which asks what future we choose for Scotland.

This also popped up on a Gun Dog group I’m in, much lauded as an excellent video.

I thought it was shite. Seems to just be, “Natural England aren’t issuing the available licenses to control Guls/Crows, that’s your fault Packham” There was just a couple of stats given, but no year on year comparisons so kinda meaningless unless specifically trying to hide that those stats measure things that occur every year. Which with Guls predating eggs I’d assume happens pretty much everywhere and has done for years.

I thought it was shite.

Their video editor had clearly just discovered slow mo editing.
I would agree its the normal incoherent rubbish from the unnatural England lot.
The main issue for curlews etc is that their habit has been destroyed so if he did actually care about that he would be advocating for vastly increased habitat which would mean they arent concentrated and so more vulnerable to predators.
The use of “gulls” as a blanket statement seems odd from such a dedicated birdwatcher as well and isnt going to help him to get a licence considering several are red and amber listed in the UK hence the reluctance to provide licences for them.
All Wild Justice did was identify that Natural England hadnt been following the law when granting licences. Anything else is with NE and its not like they have been being too strict on restricting the new General licences.

Classic bollox from the huntin shootin fishin lot.

they do lots of this sort of thing and its all utter bollox – usually in total ignorance of the law

meantime they continue to kill raptors and mustelids. Several more gone raptors since the last time this thread was bunped – all on grouse moors

still = Ewings gone in Scotland and the end of this barbaric practice in scotland is near. Keep the pressure on the criminal conspiracy that is drive grouse shooting

Its another of their common ploys – dress it up as concern for wee fluffy bird. Been done many time. No one believes a word they say. Bunch of criminals

See Strathbraan Community Collaboration for Waders (SCCW) Its a group of grouse moors attempting to have corvids killed using the excuse of protecting waders. its 100% bollox.

As a little aside, we saw a trap of sorts with a deer carcass in it and one (presumably trapped?) crow or similar corvid flapping about inside. What sort of trap was that?

I’m assuming it was legal as it wasn’t exactly subtle, but why trap crows way up in a block of forest? Didn’t seem very grouse-y up there…

Larsen trap? Cruel but legal if used correctly but often used with a corvid or pigeon as bait to trap raptors. report it to the RSPB as what you describe is probably not legal but i am not sure.

Sign of a scumbag anyway – a cruel trap

Just took a mooch in the comments section of Countryside Alliance and a few things stood out, criticism has been deleted. Some are very very willing to accept the video as “factually excellent” with any corroborating data, and some have no idea that rewilding isn’t an unmanaged process. I’m also raising an eyebrow to the “look how cruel Guls are, this is your fault” line of thought but it’s logically impossible for that to have not always* been the case, if it wasn’t there would be no need for control in the first place.

*putting aside the obvious logical error of thinking nature isn’t cruel when it needs to be

At least conflicting views aren’t simply deleted.

A stunning book and read – free to download for a month

Thanks for that – downloaded – looks great.

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/grouse-season-in-2021-123182

Gutted.

@matt_outandabout

Cheers, downloaded, lovely stuff

It has been really noticeable this year how much effort the ghillies have been putting in to manicuring the river banks. Everything has been cut and strimmed away. I live on the Tweed and vast stretches of riverbank are now nothing but neatly trimmed grass, a complete wildlife desert. Bushes and trees cut back so nothing for a Kingfisher to sit on, no shaded pools in water and no meadows or grasses for moths and butterflies. Just neat strips of mown grass.

But hey, it looks nice for the fishermen, it means they drive right up to the fishing pool and don’t have to worry too much about pesky insects or other bothersome wildlife.

Field sports industry, managing the countryside by creating wildlife deserts.

Meanwhile, in contrast to the Tweed and throughout the Dee catchment in Aberdeenshire, large amounts of public money are being spent supporting an ambitious and positive plan to restore riverside tree cover. A great many thousands of young trees are being planted in tight, small groups for shade, to encourage wildlife diversity and support the fish population. I guess my only concern with this project is in establishing if there is a plan to remove all of the planting litter, the stakes, tubes, zip ties and so on as these trees grow. Pity that the Tweed salmon ‘owners’ cannot see the benefits.

that is really good to hear highlandman, unfortunately the experience here seems to be the complete polar opposite. Well established bankside foliage is being aggressively chopped down, the whole bank is sanitised until it is smooth, manicured grass.

Meanwhile, Yorkshire Water aren’t renewing shooting licences….

https://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/news/environment/yorkshire-water-to-end-grouse-shooting-tenancies-on-its-moor-in-calderdale-3328124

those lovely custodians of the countryside are such nice folk!

Note the various claims are mainly verified and factual unlike the gamekeepers claims of “intimidation” from the conservationisrts none of which are

https://theferret.scot/activists-facing-abuse-from-grouse-industry/

Verified and factual my arse. lol

Cite your references please (sound familiar lol)

You neglected to mention the parts where you’re lovely ferret friends say the Raptor study group wok quite happily with most gamekeepers , or is that twisting the narrative the wrong way ?.

all the data is there. Ruth tingray and Cris packham have not invented the intimidation they receive and all the rest of it is well documented.

Where ?

Tingray talks crap imo, as does Packham the proven liar.

I’m not really seeing any data in that Ferret article apart from the survey of Gamekeepers receiving abuse.

Packham the proven liar

Is this a new proven lie or is it like the last one where it wasn’t Packham but the Telegraph? Even then you didn’t prove it was a lie.

Are you going to back that statement up with anything at all?

Oh dear Brads – are you still pushing this line?

there is no evidence let alone proof that either of these two have lied. Tingay is a highly respected envronmentalist working closely with the government

Your have been shown on this topic that your “IMO” is worthless. You claimed you ” knew of no raptor persecution incidents ” in the areas you work in. I showed yo the map of proven raptor persecution events in every area of Scotland

Its really time you decided what side yo are on. the criminal conspiracy of the grouse moors or wildlife. Its one or the other

Are you really attempoting to claim that allthe documented abuse and attacks on tingay and packham are made up? “Credible threats to life” the police decide. Tingay had her address and telephone number put up on the net by the criminals. the chair of onbe of the scots shooting organisations has been proven to send abusive and threatening attacks on them

Two more gamekeepers in court for raptor killings this week.

you really do try to defend the indefensible here. Its well proven that there is a criminal conspiracy that runs right thru grouse moors – from raptor persecution to illegal trapping to intimidation of monitors. all well documented and proven

still – the grouse moors are going out of business and licensing will soon sort them out in Scotland. the greens will not let the Scots government go soft on it and Ewing the shooters friend is out of the picture now so thats another block on progress gone

the government ( UK) are talking about checking social media to assess suitability for gun lisences. thats a lot of grouse moor workers going to loose their gun lisences as they have been proven to use social mdia to threaten conservationists

here is some of the data

https://wildjustice.org.uk/general/do-not-read-if-you-are-easily-offended/

and here – properly evidenced and documented
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2021/02/11/gamekeepers-lead-disgusting-hate-campaign-against-conservationists-1/

Open your eyers Brads. Pick a side – or have you already in your defense of grouse moors and your acceptance of the lies coming from them

Or how about this one?
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2021/03/17/basc-director-duncan-thomas-apologises-for-misogynistic-abuse/

I’ve reported quite a few comments on SGA posts to Facebook, at least 5 in the just year where people have said that Packham should be shot. Several of these had been liked by the SGA. All of my reports were upheld by Facebook

The biggest threat to the field sport industry is is own members. Their belligerent, self pitying, combative attitude will do more damage than Nature Scotland, RSPB and Packham combined. We just need to stoke then every now and again.

thing is the grouse moor staff owners and users all know the practice is indefensible – so all they have is bluster, threats and attempts to falsify data. Of course they are opposed by some dedicated and highly knowledgeable people so all their nonsense is quickly exposed ( strathbran anyone – the totally bogus group set up to try to provide a smokescreen to kill corvids ( and raptors) supposedly in defense of waders – funny its 90% grouse moor)

the guy in the video i linked to seemed to think that grouse moors are unviable without raptor persecution – which would be a reasonable explanation for why they havent sorted their house out.

Viable if you do walk up shooting and expect small bags of a few birds – Marr lodge has proven that. Unviable if you want the 300+ a day bags – the only way to do that is to clear the land of all predators. Raptors ( not that actually they take many grouse in Scotland bar hen harriers) Stoats and Ravens plus you need ” medicated grit” and to burn the heather – both practices disastrous environmentally

Well established bankside foliage is being aggressively chopped down, the whole bank is sanitised until it is smooth, manicured grass.

This is for salmon bank fishers, bit like the fishing equivalent of the grouse shooter, they pay so much more it’s economically beneficial to disregard everything else, like trout fishers that want bank vegetation for insects or those pesky bird watchers on moorland that don’t pay, so they kill, trap or burn off the habitat of competing species.

Wildlife tourism is worth 5 million a year to the island of Mull – mainly eagle and Otter watching

You can make money from having wildlife. But not if you shoot all the interesting stuff

No, what I mean is that in all my time involved in it, no wildlife crimes took place. It’s very well run and responsibly managed.

You tell me the estate and I bet I can find evidence of wildlife crime

I suspect I know which one it is.

Unviable if you want the 300+ a day bags

And if that’s what shooters are really interested in, then there’s an issue. It forces disingenuousness into the whole issue. If driven grouse shooting is not compatible with wildlife conservation then I think we should be saying so. I know that plenty of of people are, but most of the conversation seems to be framed around ‘Stop killing raptors plz’ especially the folks that don’t have an objection to grouse shooting outright and those on the fence – eg Core earlier on in the thread.

If the market wants driven grouse shooting then hoping that estate owners could become enlightened and stop killing predators would be unrealistic. They would be effectively shuttering their businesses and given that it’s very difficult actually prosecute persecution then they are acting rationally to continue that persucution and then lie about it. A perception of victimhood and grievence will provide all the moral justification for that kind of behaviour.

Im not convinced licencing will work in this context. The shoot closes if they persecute (and get caught), the shoot closes if they don’t (and loose most of the grouse). Might as well take the risk and carry on.

Of course this is all predicated on the basis that commerical grouse shooting cant be sustained without predator persecution. Happy to check more data on that!

Licensing ( if done properly) will mean shoots either stay within the law or go out of business. If those huge bags cannot be sustained without crime then non of the estates will have those huge bags

The issue is not the grouse shooting ( thats a different issue) but the idea that you need these huge bags to have had a successful day.

Of course the elephant in the room that the shooters ignore is this is all about blood lust – nothing else. Its about the visceral thrill of killing.

Licensing ( if done properly) will mean shoots either stay within the law or go out of business. If those huge bags cannot be sustained without crime then non of the estates will have those huge bags

I think its as likely that the crime will continue because its so hard to prove that it’s happening, and the outcome is the same either way. There’s nothing too lose. A gamekeeper will have to choose between their job vanishing and getting away with a (justified in their mind) crime.

Of course the elephant in the room that the shooters ignore is this is all about blood lust – nothing else. Its about the visceral thrill of killing.

Sure, but telling them this is unlike to change behaviour (see Brexit). More chance of persuading people that it’d be nice to stick to pheasants / walk up shooting.

dakuan – the key thing about licensing is that unlike a criminal prosecution you do not need to have an individual to prosecute – very difficult because of the omerta. You only need to show that wildlife crime was committed on the estate ( and / or they did not stick to agree practises over land management) and its a civil standard of proof not criminal

so much easier to shut down the criminal grouse moors

So for example an estate where a poisened bait was found – the estate loses its license. No need to find the individual who placed the bait.

Why are the shooters so against licensing? because they know none of them actually work within the law and good practice

If it was only a tiny minority that break the law as the shooters claim then surely all the law abiding ones would want licensing to put the criminal out of business and to recover their reputation

I do not believe a single driven shoot could meet the conditions needed for a license. wildlife crime occurs on them all.