Grouse moor licencing, Scotland.

https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/19310599.cumbria-police-issue-appeal-birds-disappear-suspicious-circumstances

2 Hen Harriers ‘Disappeared’ near me, Geltsdale.

You would need hundreds of the traps to have any meaningful impact on the local corvid population

Last one I ran was on a farm yard. 1000 birds a week. That was one trap, about 3 meters square and 2 meters high. It has a meaningful impact.

Crow traps are large. Larsen traps are smaller and are aimed at magpies mainly.

Not all are on farm yards cause sheep are on hills and they are used for lamb protection as well.

As I’ve said before, pest control is required. Anyone saying otherwise doesn’t really know what they are talking about.
Larsen and crow traps are pest control.

Raptors are “pest” control.

Larsen and crow traps are pest control.

Indeed they are.

But as scotroutes says, we don’t all agree on the definition of pest and the species targeted.

Raptors are “pest” control.

You know that, I know that, every sensible person knows that.

Unfortunately sense doesn’t come into it, just ££££££££’s.

Larsen and crow traps are pest control.

They are cruel and barbaric and should be banned – and as you should well know Brads routinely used to trap raptors. Its pretense they are for corvids in many cases

Wrong on all counts there I’m afraid.

Not cruel and not barbaric ! They simply hold live birds till you dispatch them.

In the time I ran one it only ever held crows, no raptor will go near a trap with a corvid call bird in it.

Raptors are “pest” control.

Well not really but strangely they can be and a license to control them can be issued by the Scottish Govt.

You won’t ever get me to defend illegal killing of them though. Never have, never will.

Brads – you do however deny the extent. 1/3 of ALL scottish raptors will be killed on a grouse moor prematurely. Its proven

You also deny the cruelty of a larsen trap and again its well proven they have been used to kill raptors routinely Its on video FFS

You need to open your eyes to what is going on.

In good news Fergus Ewing is gone. No more to the grouse moor owners have a paid “friend” in government. He has been a block on talking effective action against the criminal conspiracy of raptor persecution

Mairi Gougeon, another relative newcomer, was promoted from public health to become secretary for rural affairs and islands. Gougeon had won plaudits from environmentalists in a previous role as rural affairs minister. She replaced Fergus Ewing, a veteran minister seen by his critics as a conservative force who resisted reforms including grouse moor licensing. Ewing was sacked by Sturgeon along with Fiona Hyslop, another veteran cabinet minister.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/19/nicola-sturgeon-cabinet-reshuffle-prioritises-covid-and-climate-crises

@tjagain

I get it, I really do.(Although no one has mentioned wind turbines yet) The people who kill raptors are a disgrace to shooting and need rooted out.
But cruel and barbaric are pretty specific. If a bird is caught in one it’s easily killed humanely. You can kill a raptor humanely ! illegally but still humane. The traps are not an issue, wrong use of them might be.

Larson traps aren’t for raptors, crow traps not in use should have the doors open. Neither are cruel.

They are not there for pretence either, they are on hills for sheep protection (lambs) and closer to farms mainly for damage limitation (silage etc)

In all my years I’ve never come across anyone using this type of trap for buzzards etc.

you’ve mentioned wind turbines, can you elaborate?

Larsen traps are cruel. The caught bird will be in a state of panic and attempting to get out until its exhausted. Yes a good worker will be checking them regularly and dispatching birds humanely but its incontrovertible they are cruel simply because they hare held for so long in them. OK not as bad as pole traps which are illegal and still routinely set all over the grouse moors

This is a corvid – as you know a highly intelligent and social bird held in one for 36 hours. Distressing to some viewers

Man convicted ( as you know convictions are very rare only a tiny % of the criminals) for killing a goshawk caught in a larsen trap. there is video of it
https://www.copfs.gov.uk/media-site-news-from-copfs/954-aberdeen-gamekeeper-jailed-for-killing-goshawk
Plenty of other evidence of larsen traps with live birds as bait to trap raptors.

I know you are a decent bloke with a love of scotland but please stop being willfully blind to the extent of this. Guys like you need to join with the conservationists – if for nothing else to try to preserve any hunting and shooting – and to freeze out the criminal conspiracy amongst so many of the shooting community. Folk like you give them a veneer of respectability

Neither are cruel.

More BS from our resident “conservationist” I guess being trapped in a small cage with barely enough room to turn around for days on end is OK as long as you have some manky water and rotten carcass for company and knowing that you’ll be despatched humanely after days of stress.

Although no one has mentioned wind turbines yet

More deflection straight from the “conservationists” playbook – if landowners like the Glenfiddich Estate were so concerned for preserving habitat and welfare, how come they allow them to be built on their land?

@dovebiker

I’m not even getting into it with you as you obviously decide what is correct and what is not.

Call birds are looked after and once in a trap are as settled as any caged bird. You’ve obviously never even seen one as none I’ve ever seen has been as you describe.

As for BS you either want an echo chamber for your beliefs or you don’t. I have no interest either way what you believe. Why would I deflect from something I hate ?

I call it as I see it.

@tjagain

What live birds are used as bait for raptors ? certainly not corvids, the buggers won’t go near them.

I’m not naive and am not defending bad practice, but again, you either want my views or not.
I have never seen a raptor in a cage trap of any description.

I also don’t believe most on here are unaware of wind turbine damage.

From your gods

https://www.rspb.org.uk/our-work/policy-insight/climate-change/action-to-tackle-climate-change/uk-energy-policy/wind-farms/

Wind turbine kills in Scotland is an almost never event – why – because its one factor that is considered in the siting of them – not in places where there will be bird strikes.

So yes – you are using an example of bad practice in another country that does not apply here to deflect blame – its a common set of lies from the criminals. find an example of a windfarm causing casualties in the UK on more than a very rare basis. Remeber we know how may raptors are killed. Its solid data.

Brad – you really do need to open your eyes to the extent of this

In the above case of a larsen trap it was a jay used as bait. there are many other examples as well. IIRC a little owl was used in one case but that may have been a pole trap or it may have been a decoy at a harrier nest to scare the birds away. I’ll look up more larsen traps killing raptors deliberately for you

Looks to be a decent summary of the data. Note this is data the police believe is true.

https://www.nwcu.police.uk/how-do-we-prioritise/priorities/raptor-persecution/

Also 53 confirmed hen harriers killed in 3 years

Here is data of raptors killed in traps. again its a tiny number of the criminals and their traps that get caught

https://www.againstcorvidtraps.co.uk/campaign/raptor-persecution/

You simply cannot deny this is common practice on grouse moors. the data is there note the data isd from an RSPB repor tnot a fringe loon. Its well known. Open your eyes man

@tjagain good research.

Yup good research. The first is persecution , not related to crow traps as far as I can tell. It also shows next to no data apart from one map of disappearances

In the above case of a larsen trap it was a jay used as bait.

A Jay is a call bird in any larsen trap aimed at Jays. Every Larsen trap has a corvid as “bait bird” It’s normal practice and nothing to do with BoP.

The second lists 3 instances of incorrectly operated traps being left locked, it also shows no data whatsoever. No charges brought for any of those examples. So no, not great research I’m afraid.

You simply cannot state this is a “tiny ” example with nothing to say otherwise.

3 cases of wrongly operated traps listed on an anti shooting site does nothing for me sorry.

Again, I am totally against it,(illegal killing of raptors) but am not convinced by many of the anti shoot propaganda.

I know people who have carried this out. They are scum in my book and I would never have anything to do with them. They have been prosecuted for it and are not working.

They are a tiny minority of the people involved in shooting that I know.

I have been majorly involved with a commercial shoot for the last decade.(No longer)
Thousands of birds put down annually.

I am utterly convinced that not a single bird of prey has been killed on that shoot. or on any of the neighbouring shoots (Scottish borders)

It’s just not something that is done by the majority.

The data is from the RSPB not an anti shooting site

You would be wrong both on the borders and on the extent. Its the vast majority if not every shoot and borders is a hotspot along with Angus glens. The data is incontrovertible

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2015/12/18/new-report-reveals-hundreds-of-raptors-illegally-killed-on-game-shooting-estates-in-scotland/

Now this is a straight lift from meticulous data gathering its just the blog presents it in an easily digested form

Note the map shows many confirmed kills of raptors all across the borders. so you are either being fooled, fooling yourself or simply denying what is happening.

You really need to open your eyes and stop denying what is proven fact

Werrity report
https://www.gov.scot/publications/grouse-moor-management-group-report-scottish-government/

Another map of proven persecution incidents. Note the borders is a hotspot

Birds of prey killed in the borders

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/two-scotlands-rarest-birds-prey-found-shot-borders-1418992

Lots more solid data on birds of prey killings

http://ww2.rspb.org.uk/Images/illegal-killing-report_tcm9-462198.pdf

Its clearly the majority, its clearly widespread, it happens on almost every estate, the hard data is only a small % of the suspected cases. Even only using the confirmed kills on grouse moors its clear its widespread and commonplace.

also note amongst this data are numerous examples of larsen traps aimed at birds of prey.

Unless you and folk like you who abhor this but are involved in the industry stand alongside the conservationists all bird shooting will be banned You are either against killing raptors or you are not. If you attempt to defend the grouse moors in the face of incontrovertible evidence then you are on the side of the criminals. Its that simple

Its clearly a massive widespread criminal conspiracy to kill raptors

You probably and not unreasonably do not want to mention which estate you worked on but if you do I will bet you I find multiple proven incidents or I will perform a forfeit of your choice 🙂

^ I could have predicted the local pins in the map to us.

Upland estates with a noticeable dearth of biodiversity, traps well away from people and paths, lines of grit feeders, paths handily ‘overgrown’ or buried under knee deep cow feeding kaka and a keeper who every year challenged our outdoor centre groups.

There is also a management company that manages the shooting rights / stalks / hunts, and the local.pins coincide with thier involvement in estates.

Hmmm

Oh look – borders estate, illegal pesticides only used for killing raptors, traps set to kill raptors.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/19/scottish-gamekeeper-who-killed-protected-birds-of-prey-avoids-jail

Wilson is well known and is a disgrace, He should never work again. Total imbecile.

The place I have been involved with has no record whatsoever of any crimes against any wildlife. I can assure you of that one.

Raeshaw was the worst I’ve heard of down our way but that was nearly a decade ago.

“The place I have been involved with has no record whatsoever of any crimes against any wildlife. I can assure you of that one.”

Doesnt mean that crimes haven’t been committed there though does it??

Wilson is well known and is a disgrace,

Without wanting to get involved in a pile on, if he was well known, why was he able to stay in work?

has no record whatsoever of any crimes against any wildlife

Do you mean no convictions? If you do that is very different to saying no crimes took place. We all know how it is nearly impossible to secure enough evidence to convict wildlife crime on vast countryside estates.

Doesnt mean that crimes haven’t been committed there though does it??

I would like to remind all of us that the only way forward it to work together – I have grown up seeing both sides, and although I now do think we have a big issue with raptor persecution (and generally in ‘conservation’ around hunting, shooting, fishing), I am understanding of the work that needs to be done.

I have been involved in shooting corvids and foxes, having seen the injuries they can inflict on lambs, on balance they need some control.

Just like deer also need culling in much larger numbers than currently managed… 😉

I would like to remind all of us that the only way forward it to work together

The problem with that Matt is that the field sports industry is massively defensive and quite frankly, combative. Everyone is out to get them, no-one understands them, townies are bad, they are the only people who can save the countryside, no crime has taken place, RSPB and Chris Packham are the antichrist and it goes on and on and on and on. They demonstrate no ability to flex or change at all and certainly no willingness to accept there is a problem or work with other bodies.

I follow SGA on Facebook, mainly out of curiosity. Their Chair is like a case study in how to not steer an organisation through challenging times.

I would like to remind all of us that the only way forward it to work together

I would like to remind all of us that has been trotted out for years now.
With one side mouthing along whilst continuing mass persecution of anything they dont like the look of.

The utter madness of all of this is that the industry we are accusing of killing raptors exists only because of the economy of killing game birds. How do you rationally explain that, people paying money to enjoy themselves by killing things.

Madness.

Maybe give the estates a stake in keeping the raptors safe. If a nest or bird(s) disappears the estate loses it’s shooting licence for failing to protect the wildlife. If the nest/bird(s) are bordered by more than 1 estate they all lose their licences.

We’re beyond pussy-footing about, compel obedience with a similarly brutal punishment to that of killing protected species. Yes people will lose their jobs but we’re beyond being nice currently there’s no sanction other than on the fall-guy nominated by the land-owner. A strict liability offence with no wriggle room.

I would like to remind all of us that the only way forward it to work together

I would agree to some extent which is why I keep saying we need folk like Brads on side so we can isolate the criminals. However as long as folk like brads continue to deny the extent of the problem then they are part of the problem. the hard core will not work with the conservation side indeed they pretend to then use the data they get to kill more raptors. See hen harriers.

Sandwich – thats licensing which is now going to happen especially now Fergus Ewings gone

Brads – as the data shows you are simply wrong about the extent of this. Face up to it. Choose to be part of the solution not part of the problem Every area in Scotland where there are grouse moors. almost every if not every estate is a part of the criminal conspiracy

@Sandwich While I hear you (and kind of agree), I still think a reward based system should go alongside it. I said it earlier in the thread – we need to make things financially worthwhile. Bonuses paid for ‘hosting’ raptors, grants for access paths, rewards for biodiversity etc etc.

AND some serious consequences around raptor (and other wildlife/ecosystem) persecution.

But we need to find a way of sustaining all this and creating economies in rural areas.

And this will not mean an end to needing to shoot or kill things – our environment is so out of kilter, the huge deer herds or corvids, or rats etc will need to be dealt with. We don’t have, and I cannot see them living alongside us on a crowded island, the apex predators to keep things in balance.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6944017.stm

golden eagle killed in the borders

Matt – they get huge public subsidies.

I have no problem shooting animals if they are for the pot or there is a need ie culling.

The grouse moors have gone far beyond a carrot approach. they need criminal sanctions.

Licensing will do but it must be enforced hard. Law abiding estates it will make no difference to. funny that the SGA is united against it. Its almost as if they know there is a huge majority of criminals amongst their members – as of course is well proven

I do totally agree with the thesis the land needs a use and to employ people.. Scotland cannot be one big park

@matt_outandabout The carrot is being able to continue hosting shooting events on the land. As TJ says there are all ready huge public fund injections that the landowner can take up. We now need to ensure that there is a return on that public investment.

There would also need to be a compulsion on managing deer numbers if the shooting licence is lost with appointed shooters culling the herd for the estate to sell the meat. Corvid and fox numbers will settle naturally if the food sources are restricted due to the lack of game bird shooting.