Greek election – extreme left won

Thge last government (just defeated) was sorting the problem out by implementing the “austerity” measures, ie a budget the Greeks can afford but with massive EU assistance.

I’m fully aware of the current policies of New Democracy but are you seriously claiming that they are any different to the same party who along with Pasok were responsible for ‘bribing’ the electorate and cooking the books so that they could gain entry into the Euro? It’s a pity you can’t show the same forgiveness and generosity to the Greek people who you say greedily voted for their own destruction.

From Sky News

During the campaign, Syriza made a number of radical proposals: free electricity, subsidised rent, free healthcare, higher salaries and pensions for the civil service, an increase in the minimum wage, abolishing the existing property tax and so on.

Why Syriza’s victory is a poisened chalice

@dazh, different in the sense that they where following the financial rules set down by the EU/Troika as part of the bailout. That’s my take.

jambalaya – Member
Post the crises the Greeks introduced taxes collected via utility bills

Only property tax and only for two years (2012/2013). Last year property tax was payable over the counter at a bank or post office, in six instalments. Or one payment, of course, if you wanted to.
Being a ??????, that’s what I did…

Also I can personally vouch for the difficulties the health service is working under. When my wife broke her arm last summer she was, of course, treated (X-ray and plaster) at Genikó Nosokomeío Kalamatas and in all the corridors, waiting rooms, etc. only one light in five was working to reduce electricity costs, they can’t even afford those paper rolls that are used on examination couches and the list goes on and on.
My wife couldn’t fault the attention and care that she received though, and no, we didn’t have to slip anyone a back-hander. Both she and I wish we could be there now (Greece I mean, not the hospital..)

Not that this has anything to do with bugger all, of course.

different in the sense that they where following the financial rules set down by the EU/Troika as part of the bailout. That’s my take.

Ah so it’s ok as long as they do what they’re told once they’ve been found out?

From Sky News

😀

Free electricity…up to a limit…for those under the poverty line. Insane bastards.

Subsidised rent…as part of a house building scheme. The idiots.

Free healthcare…for the uninsured and unemployed. Mental.

Increase in the minimum wage…or restoration to it’s previous level (but lower than it was in 2012). Crazy.

Can’t find details about the civil service pay/pensions but the property tax looks like a complete overhaul rather than abolishing it.

Funny how he doesn’t slag off proposed meal subsidies for families with zero income though…

I went to Greece shortly after it all went tits up and before I went I read an article on tax avoidance in Greece, and one thing the article mentioned was if you go to Greece take note of how many receipts you get or see being made.

From my personal experience:

1. Taxi – none
2. Hotel – none
3. Restaurants – none
4. Touristy cruise – none
5. Boat hire – none

I was there for a wedding and the bride and groom also had to pay for the wedding venue, restaurant and bar bill in cash, and this wasn’t in small places these were big hotels.

Essentially, it appeared like if you could avoid paying tax you did, this was backed up by conversations with a few locals who said they don’t pay tax as the roads, schools and public services are so bad that they refuse to pay for them.

Here’s a plan – tried and tested

Reduce the repayable amount by 50%
Repayments should only be due when Greece run a trade surplus and limited to 3% of export earnings

Free electricity…up to a limit…for those under the poverty line. Insane bastards.

Subsidised rent…as part of a house building scheme. The idiots.

Free healthcare…for the uninsured and unemployed. Mental.

Increase in the minimum wage…or restoration to it’s previous level (but lower than it was in 2012). Crazy.

Gosh, what a bunch of loony commies.

Reduce the repayable amount by 50%
Repayments should only be due when Greece run a trade surplus and limited to 3% of export earnings

We could do with some of that in the UK as we won’t run a trade surplus. Also why not reduce by 75% while you are at it ?

@Andy R and @richc these first hand stories are worth a lot as they show what’s really happening.

I fully appreciate how difficult things are in Greece but they are better than of they had defaulted a few years ago and will hopefully serve as a lesson to Greeks and to those other countries who try and live on excessive levels of debt.

@Lifer those policies are fine if you can afford them, if you have a strong economy. Paying for them by borrowing money isn’t a good plan particularly if you are one of the most indebted countries in the world.

We could do with some of that in the UK as we won’t run a trade surplus. Also why not reduce by 75% while you are at it ?

Well, I’m not quite sure how much was actually paid back before the remainder of the 50% was eventually written off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_German_External_Debts

@lifer- you don’t mean to say that jam’s post was a bunch of misleading half truths do you?

The last government prepared for the election in the time honoured way by hiring a bunch of public employees. This is what the Greek voters rejected.

@jota180 – maybe if the Greeks kill a few million people they’ll qualify for that deal?

sierrakilo – Member

Been to Greece and Islands several times…………. they always seem to be sitting around drinking coffee in the coffee shops…..doesn’t anyone work at all in Greece ? ……no wonder they went bust !

An interesting observation but your conclusion is false. The Greeks according to the OECD on average actually work more hours than anyone else in Europe.

In fact the Greeks work more hours in a year than almost any other nation in the industrialised world.

The Germans in contrast are among the “laziest” in Europe/the world.

Greece’s financial crises has nothing to do with the Greeks suddenly becoming “lazy” when they joined the Euro, and everything to do with them sharing a currency with Germany – a country at a completely different stage of economic/industrial development than themselves.

Although I can understand the attraction to EU enthusiasts of propagating the myth of Greek “laziness” to explain the failure of their experiment, something which they have had considerable success with – most people I suspect blame the Greeks.

.

“Far left” is how the FT describes it BTW

The media can use all sorts of labels to describe political organisations, it doesn’t make them correct. Syriza is an alliance of bourgeois liberals and revisionists. It supports EU membership and the Euro. It wishes to “renegotiate” an “agreement” with the conservative politicians and bankers who control EU, they have ruled out any suggestion of taking unilateral action. No “far left” party would take that stance.

Syriza are in fact more right-wing than the Labour Party was in the 1980’s ….. the 1983 Labour Party manifesto called for withdrawal from the EEC and the nationalisation of the banks. This did not incidentally lead to the FT describing the Labour Party as a “far left party”, in fact by the 1992 General Election the FT was urging its readers to vote Labour.

Btw as someone who can reasonably be described as far left, and given that the Greeks had a choice, if I were Greek I would have voted KKE, the obvious far left party, not Syriza.

ernie_lynch – Member

An interesting observation but your conclusion is false. The Greeks according to the OECD on average actually work more hours than anyone else in Europe.

In fact the Greeks work more hours in a year than almost any other nation in the industrialised world.

The Germans in contrast are among the “laziest” in Europe/the world.

Let says they don’t work Saturday & Sunday (ignoring other public holidays they have) that would equate to 7.79 hour per day so in effect they are not actually working more than a person should be. The other industrialised nations perhaps work smarter without needing to work more than they should be hence reduced hour by comparison.

The question you need to ask is why do they work such long hour yet are in such debts? I bet they will give you an answer that is so convincing they would not blink when they answer … that’s how good they are.

Do they artificially inflate the working hour to justify their income or to get the necessary salary where the actual works do not require such hours?

In fact publishing those “hard working” hour can be rather embarrassing to read where the conclusion can only point to the direction that they might be talented in arguments but falling short of the brain juice? Yes?

Unless of course the alternative argument is that their hourly rate is so low they need to work long hour to survive but then they are in EU so there should be minimum wage.

😯

mbarrassing to read where the conclusion can only point to the direction that they might be talented in arguments but falling short of the brain juice? Yes?

Yes, Greeks fallng short of the brain juice. What’s the minimum wage for a shop keeper, a farmer, a fisherman, a shepherd? Aren’t you embarrassed to spout such moronic drivel?

richc – Member
I went to Greece shortly after it all went tits up and before I went I read an article on tax avoidance in Greece, and one thing the article mentioned was if you go to Greece take note of how many receipts you get or see being made.

From my personal experience:

1. Taxi – none
2. Hotel – none
3. Restaurants – none
4. Touristy cruise – none
5. Boat hire – none

I can only add my experience over the last few years – the only time I’ve taken much notice really, although we’ve been visiting Greece for well over 20 years and owned a house there for the last 10.

Taxi – No, I’ve never been given a receipt but then I haven’t here (the IoM) either.
Hotel – We only use one (The Nefeli, in Plaka, in that Athens – highly recommended, BTW) and we’ve always paid by credit card, so not really applicable.
Restaurants – Always get a receipt, not if it’s just for an ouzo and meze in some really out-of-the-way place though.
Lawyers, notaries, accountants – the worst by a long way – always want cash and are very reluctant to part with receipts

That’s about all I know – ok, if I pop up the road for a couple of bags of sand and a bag of cement, for example, I don’t either, but I always do in my village shop and that’s a village of 120 in the back of beyond.

Actually, over the last couple of years, the govt. were issuing leaflets to be displayed at retail outlets, stating that if a receipt wasn’t issued the customer wasn’t obliged to pay.
Although I suspect that if I didn’t pay Stavros at my local builders merchants he might just take me down to his basement and demand payment in kind. Yes, that kind…. 😯

Edit – re. this minimum wage stuff. If you need the money then you have to take what’s offered. The wife of a good friend of mine worked all summer, seven days a week in a taverna from 6pm until they closed (which might be 1-2am in August) for €4 an hour. Obviously short on “brain juice” – much like me then.

Blimey Ernie’s back – where have you been? I wondered what had happened to you.

????? ?????? ??? ????

Sloppy titles eh, defining peoples’ politics incorrectly! Who needs that?!? 😉

Greeks work long hours true (lots of self employed) but productivity is poor – both need to be considered. But the simple, Greeks are lazy stereotype is not accurate.

teamhurtmore – Member
Blimey Ernie’s back – where have you been? I wondered what had happened to you.

????? ?????? ??? ???? 😀 😀

DrJ – Member

mbarrassing to read where the conclusion can only point to the direction that they might be talented in arguments but falling short of the brain juice? Yes?

Yes, Greeks fallng short of the brain juice. What’s the minimum wage for a shop keeper, a farmer, a fisherman, a shepherd? Aren’t you embarrassed to spout such moronic drivel? [/quote]

By Zeus! Are you saying they are all of self-employed? They have that many shop keepers, farmers, fishermen and shepherds? 😯

Next time I shall call my Greek friends ‘peasant’ to see how they react … I bet the opening sentence of their reply will be “… ?????? …”. Also imagine if I call them goat herders … 😆

Aren’t you slightly exaggerating? I mean even my Greek friends are not shop keepers, farmers or fishermen let alone shepherds?

Nahhh … you are not as good as the Greek in arguments. 😆

teamhurtmore – Member

But the simple, Greeks are lazy stereotype is not accurate.

If that is not the case then there can only be two possibilities:

1. Lack brain juice that equate less return which most argue is not the case.

2. Too much brain juice that encourage exploitation, yes?

😯

Andy R – Member

Edit – re. this minimum wage stuff. If you need the money then you have to take what’s offered. The wife of a good friend of mine worked all summer, seven days a week in a taverna from 6pm until they closed (which might be 1-2am in August) for €4 an hour. Obviously short on “brain juice” – much like me then.

No, they just paid Mrs/you the equivalent in Peso … 😆

In not following this, but is Ernie Jamie’s other login or what?

bet they will give you an answer that is so convincing they would not blink when they answer … that’s how good they are.

You’re sailing close to racism there, I would say.

codybrennan – Member

bet they will give you an answer that is so convincing they would not blink when they answer … that’s how good they are.

You’re sailing close to racism there, I would say. [/quote]

😯 In what sense? Seriously.

Maybe I’m just cynical about any stats produced from Greece but 2024 hours on average per worker there seems pretty unlikely to me.

In assuming that there’s an innate characteristic of a race (nation, actually) .

codybrennan – Member

In assuming that there’s an innate characteristic of a race (nation, actually) .

I see.

What if I say they are highly intelligent for their own good? Or far more intelligent than other EU nations for their own benefits? Or a nation that miscalculated their own abilities? Would that be inappropriate?

😯

</leaves thread>

codybrennan – Member
</leaves thread>

😯

chewkw – Member

No, they just paid Mrs/you the equivalent in Peso …

You’ve lost me there – who was talking about “me” anyway?

And I do have Greek friends who are shopkeepers, shepherds and farmers – same as I do here.

…2024 hours on average per worker there seems pretty unlikely to me.

Perhaps the statistical information provided by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has been tainted to provide a “pro-Greek” bias, while simultaneously suggesting that the Germans are among the most workshy and lazy of any industrialised country?

The Washington Post has enthusiastically accepted the OECD figures publishing the above graph and an article to accompany it:

Greeks work harder than Germans. Who knew?[/url]

However an anonymous punter on some mountain bike forum who apparently has been to “Greece and Islands several times” and has personally witnessed that Greeks “always seem to be sitting around drinking coffee in the coffee shops” is able to put a different perspective on the issue.

Take your choice.

🙂

Can we trade chewkw’s standard drivel for codybrennan, please? So very tedious.

Andy R – Member
You’ve lost me there – who was talking about “me” anyway?

And I do have Greek friends who are shopkeepers, shepherds and farmers – same as I do here.

I mean the pay is as low if not the same wage rate as in 3rd/developing world pay. 🙄 How can that be in EU that is my “hint” …

The ones I know are ship captain, EU bureaucrat, professor, hotelier, some other intellectual types and would quickly play down their nation as a nation of self employed. Especially, the ones you mentioned. They would swear at me if I say that, seriously.

😯

I mean the pay is as low if not the same wage rate as in 3rd/developing world pay. How can that be in EU that is my “hint” …

The ones I know are ship captain, EU bureaucrat, professor, hotelier, some other intellectual types and would quickly play down their nation as a nation of self employed.

But farmers, shepherds, fishermen, builders, village shopkeepers, taxi drivers etc are frequently self-employed, whether that’s in Greece, in Britain or pretty much anywhere else that I can think of.

I suppose that your “intellectual types” might well have a disparaging view of people like that, but then I know some people here who have much the same attitude.
They’re not my friends though, nor will they ever be.

erhaps the statistical information provided by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has been tainted to provide a “pro-Greek” bias, while simultaneously suggesting that the Germans are among the most workshy and lazy of any industrialised country?

Every other stat that came out of Greece appears to be tainted so I don’t know enough about where this one came from to know if it’s also suspect. OECD aren’t likely to have directly gathered the information themselves.

There is another measure of working hours used across the EU and produced by Eurostat. From it the Greek working hours look pretty typical e.g. for a full-time worker it shows an average of 40.7 hours per working week, which compares to 40.6 for Germany and 42.4 for the UK.

The OECD and Eurostat numbers might reconcile based on factors like how holidays are accounted and what happens with 2nd jobs – but based on those it does make the huge difference between Germany and Greece look unlikely.

Welcome back indeed to @ernie. Given the Labour Party and the government of Hollande aren’t left enough for him it’s fitting he’s back to champion Syriza’s cause.

Anti-austerity is very popular as many voters want the ability to walk away from past debts to not pay the price for past excess, to effectively get something for nothing. Of course people in other countries want some of that. This amused me this morning.

The EU and the IMF want their money back, the bailout was exactly that with terms and conditions. The tax payers of the eurozone lead by Germany have no interest in paying for excesses of the Greeks via debt write-off.

OECD aren’t likely to have directly gathered the information themselves.

Unlike people who have been to Greece and Islands several times and have hung around coffee shops taking note of the situation ?

The difference in the figures provided by OECD for hours worked annually in Greece and Germany is huge, 2,034 to 1,397, if the conclusion is false, ie, Germans actually work more hours annually than the Greeks (as someone who hangs around a Greek and German coffee shops might have noticed) then this represents a staggering failure by the OECD whose brief in a very large part requires it to provide reliable statical information concerning economic activity of different nations.

Presumably not only the figures released by the OECD for Greece are unreliable but also the ones for Germany which places the Germans second from the bottom in terms of hours worked……did the Germans exaggerate how little they work ? Or are they just not very good at providing statistics ?

As I say, you have a choice – by all means believe the myth of sudden Greek “laziness” if it helps you to simply and easily understand the causes of the Greek economic crises.

Choose the lazy and uncomplicated explanation if you find that easier 🙂

I think it’s easier to see the Germans being far more efficient and productive, it’s productivity which really matters.

I would treat any statistics coming out of Greece whether compiled by the OECD or otherwise with a very large pinch of salt. Same as the point about the very high levels of self employed, it doesn’t demonstrate entrepreneurialism it’s a symptom of tax avoidance.