Greek election – extreme left won

Not sure why I got lots of pseudo nazi references from my post tbh

I missed Jams post as I dont bother reading them these days though you can get the gist from the vitriolic retorts

Whatever erne. im not plying your stupid little game so hush it up, eh?

Of course not, you prefer your game of attempting to ridicule other posters while making pretty daft comments yourself.

So you’re pullin up someone for saying something stupid who was pulling up someone for saying something stupid?
Do you see yourself as some kind of tough guy crusader?
I’ve done my damnest to ignore the shite bawling by you (again) and some other posters and here I am shite bawling with the shite bawler. That’s it from me. You can carry on swaggering around and talking rubbish if you like.

Worth noting its the germans acting alone on this and NOT an EU view

Not true at all. Many (most / all ?) of the eurogroup members rejected it almost immediately, see the various quotes from yesterday and today. As I posted before the eurogroup (members of the single currency) are the ones who leant the money. The EU commission is the collection of politicians particularly focused on the political success of their EU superstate project and the job security it brings. The EU can talk all it likes but it isn’t the one controlling the money Greece needs.

Classic Jambo – you post some bullshit, get called on it with actual facts, and respond with more offensive racist slurs.

I don’t think in my years posting here at STW I have ever been “called” on an argument with these so called “actual facts”. Most definitely not on this thread. If the Greeks paid their taxes the Germans wouldn’t have made the very deliberate and public offer to send them 500 tax inspectors, no ? Schaulbe made the point of reminding Vouvakis of this at the first meeting between and him.

The Greeks will cave in and agree a 6 month extension to the current package with all its strings. They will spend the next 6 months negotiating a new agreement which will have some concessions, like a reduced budget surplus target – probably keeping current level of 1.5% for longer. The fundamental principals and the detail of the prior agreement will stand largely intact.

I don’t think in my years posting here at STW I have ever been “called” on an argument with these so called “actual facts”. Most definitely not on this thread.

I think that statement is eloquent testimony to the fantasy work that you inhabit.

Indeed and also why I gave up engaging with him
Its futile.
No one on this thread has defended you and everyone has amde, with varying degrees of politeness, the same point about you and your facts.

fantasy work

😀

In general terms I have been a lender for 30 years, portfolios up to $20bn. Never touched anything to do with Greece for the reasons I have stated on this thread. Not least having heard and witnessed first hand what its like to live there and try and set up a business there by my business partner in the 1990’s Elena Amrosiadou. I have made plenty of investments in emerging markets too, Indonesia, Vietnam, India, China, Eastern Europe etc

Would you like to point out a fact you think I have been wrong about ? Did you see JY was totally incorrect about Germany being alone ?

I baseball terms I am hitting 100% on this thread as far as facts and opinions go so far.

No one on this thread has defended you and everyone has amde, with varying degrees of politeness, the same point about you and your facts.

I don’t need defending. I am totally right about what I say on this one. Like so many other threads this situation is going to play out exactly like I said for exactly the reasons I said. The alternative is Greece is going to default and be kicked out of the euro and then it will understand real hardship. Syirza understands that, I think.

Amusingly I agreed with [ and basically repeated with a quote] what you said re germany.
Despite this I was wrong and you were right…forgive me.
Sums up debates with you rather nicely.

jambalaya – Member
Germany has said no !

as for 100 % right Its hard to see how anyone can read this thread and consider you were 100 % right on everything you said.

No one is ever 100 % right and you dont buck this trend.

I baseball terms I am hitting 100% on this thread as far as facts and opinions go so far.

Really, mate – you’re dreaming.

Here is Elena talking about a potential Greek default back in 2011 – skip to 4:50 (time specific url not working on STW so you’ll have to do it manually)

JY my caveat was “this thread”. As I’ve told you before my tagline on another forum is “Often wrong, seldom in doubt” – firmly tongue in cheek don’t you know 8)

BTW you should hang out here, I was one of the most left wing people on there. it’s all relative 😉 Political Anarchy

What thread do you think I am talking about ?
Its all even on this page 😕

Anyway you will still be at 100 % accurate so I respectfully retreat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/

Well. Who won then?

imnotverygood – Member
Well. Who won then?

I’m not sure, as I see it jambalya thinks he’s won everyone else thinks he’s lost.

The boot makers (think can and roads)

Monday – the devil is in the detail. How much has Tsipras given up (everything but semantics?)

The losers – the Greeks . Plus ca change.

Bllx, here comes that bloody diver again! Adios….

Who won then?

The EU. Syriza’s slavish devotion to the EU and the EZ ultimately guaranteed a predictable outcome. They have until Monday to come up with a list of measures which will please the Troika. I’m sure they won’t fail.

So….

How many more bail out payments?

As I said earlier. All will keep it going in the hope it’ll be someone else’s problem.

I predict Greece will exit at circa 750bn debt.

If I understand it, whilst the Greek govt have pledged to honour repayment terms, how they do that is still to be decided? So is it inconceivable that come Monday we could see a the greek rich (assuming there are any left) being completely hammered?

greek rich (assuming there are any left)

Apparently there are more rich Greeks than ever. According to this article there were just two Greek billionaires on the Forbe’s rich list at the start of the debt crises in 2010 :

12 Ultra Rich Greeks Who Should Have Bailed Out Greece Themselves

But then four years later there were fifteen Greek billionaires on the Forbe’s rich list, according to this :

List of Greeks by net worth

Note that out of a list of 18 of the wealthiest Greeks only 2 have got “poorer” the others have seen their wealth increase.

That there should be plenty of very wealthy Greeks shouldn’t come as any great surprise, eg, Greece does have the largest merchant navy in the world – which suggests quite a bit of money sloshing around.

A country’s debt problems does not suggest that the very wealthy are getting any poorer. For example when Argentina defaulted on its huge debts it wasn’t because the very wealthy had run out of money or become poorer, and the increased debt in the UK doesn’t suggest the very wealthy have become poorer.

As a general rule the very wealthy aren’t significantly affected by severe recessions, so even with 25% unemployment in Greece that won’t include any millionaires.

Although of course severe recessions do affect profits so there is the capacity for less wealth. But according to Forbes it would appear that wealthy Greeks have found a way round that little problem.

Will Syriza present a plan on Monday to the Troika to tax the rich until the pips squeak? Extremely unlikely I would have thought. For all the talk of “far-left” Syriza has shown ever since it assumed power that it is nothing more than a vaguely left-wing social-democratic movement. Challenging the power and wealth of those who have power and wealth is not, and never has been, a social-democratic strategy.

Lots of rich Greeks, but like my old business partner they live/work/run their businesses abroad.

Syriza have agreed (conceded) to stick with the original bailout deal and Troika control and monitoring for 4 months in return for a temporary extension of the bailout. Today (Monday) they have to present detailed written proposals for how they intend to manage the budget thereafter. If these are acceptable to the eurogroup they bailout will be extended. Weekend press suggested the budget proposals will primarily be focused on tax raising initiatives. You would imagine have come so far Syriza will present something rational and acceptable as otherwise with time so short a bank failure/euro exit seems the only alternative.

One bizarre statement from Vouvakis is that he has no idea how much extra tax they will raise. Just highlights how rash were their spending promises, spending money is easy raising it is more difficult.

I’m not sure, as I see it jambalya thinks he’s won everyone else thinks he’s lost.

@ctk What I said has come to pass, with the exception it’s a potential 4 month temporary extension not 6. Syriza had zero room for maneuver so of course they have caved in totally, good news for them is they got elected ie employed, on promises they could not possibly keep. One positive outcome could be if they actually do start collecting some more taxes from the middle and wealthier classes. If I where them I’d swallow their enormous pride and Nazi rhetoric and take the Germans up on their offer of 500 tax inspectors.

None of this will do Varoufakis’s academic or a future speaking engagements careers any harm.

I am not asking for nor expecting any admission of this from those debating against me. Frankly being right on this isn’t any great victory as the outcome was pretty obvious, Greek capitulation or euro exit and the latter they did not have an electorial mandate for.

Frankly being right on this isn’t any great victory as the outcome was pretty obvious, Greek capitulation or euro exit and the latter they did not have an electorial mandate for.

I don’t think that was ever in doubt, was it? The subject of “debate”, such as it was, was your ideas of what is “right” to do in the context of Europe, not what a bunch of Eurocrats would decide to do.

Coverage from the Guardian today, one post suggested Syriza may end up being supported in any budget votes by the pro-austerity parties as that’s what they are signing up to.

Worringly the submission from Greece is said to be broad brushed, I thought the eurogroup had made it pretty clear it needed to see detailed proposals if it where to approve a budget extension.

link

I am not asking for nor expecting any admission of this from those debating against me. Frankly being right on this isn’t any great victory as the outcome was pretty obvious

You said it mate, pretty obvious stuff is pretty obvious, hence :

ernie_lynch – Member

Syriza is an alliance of bourgeois liberals and revisionists. It supports EU membership and the Euro. It wishes to “renegotiate” an “agreement” with the conservative politicians and bankers who control EU, they have ruled out any suggestion of taking unilateral action.

Posted 3 weeks ago #

ernie_lynch – Member

So the bankers and conservative politicians in Berlin weren’t prepared to throw a lifeline to the previous conservative government in Athens and give them some breathing space, but they will to a motley crew of one-time student revolutionaries ? LOL!

Posted 3 weeks ago #

But you carry on giving yourself a pat on the head while claiming that you don’t want one 🙂

Guardian has un-earthed a copy of their 1962 paper with a story about a Greek Debt deal

But you carry on giving yourself a pat on the head while claiming that you don’t want one

😀 indeed, fair play to you !

So they’re basically going back to the electorate to say that they can’t deliver on anything they promised (did anyone seriously imagine they would?), and its the same as its ever been. Unless it isn’t. In which case it could end up being an awful lot worse. Depending on what mood the Germans are in.

I can see that all going down well then.

I didn’t realise it had got so serious that umbrellas were being thrown 😯

So they’re basically going back to the electorate to say that they can’t deliver on anything they promised (did anyone seriously imagine they would?), and its the same as its ever been.

Well, we’ll have to wait and see if they can keep a bit of flexibility over the next four months, and make a start on getting rid of some of the corruption that is such a problem. If they can, maybe they can get a bit more humane deal next time around. If the Germans insist on being tough guys then in the end Greece will have to leave the EU.

Apart from that, what this had achieved is putting the issue on the front pages so the pluses and minuses of signing up to be part of the EZ can be seen very clearly. As I said before, Schauble had done more for the Eurosceptic cause than Nigel Farage ever did.

Little will change in 4 months – how can it?

Even the Syriza MPs are saying this.

Well perhaps they can complete the design of capital controls in that time. Maybe they can copy/do a reverse of the Danes!

What a mess.

True, nothing will: change in people’s pockets. But maybe they can make a start on procedures to reduce corruption.

Did you see the interview w the German deputy finance minister? Didn’t do much to dispel the stereotypes

The Danes potentially have their own problem with a big housing bubble fuelled by personal debt. But at least it’s not inflated by Germany because it’s illegal for Germans to buy summer houses there 🙂

Stereotyping? Yes, could only cope with 1:14 of mason’s bllx. Blimey that is a mighty chip he carries around with him.

What stereotypes are visible in that interview.? The German Finance Minsiter was simply speaking in facts, that Greece has signed a legally binding agreement that can be honoured or broken. He was saying the same thing any other eurozone finance minister would say. As an aside I don’t accept that the policies of the Troika have destroyed 25% of Greek GDP. The reality is that the pre 2009 GDP figures where a fantasy as Greece borrowed to pay wages, pensions etc. The GDP like a large part of the Greek economy was fake.

The Greek electorate voted for an impossible combination, to remain in the euro yet at the same time increase spending and ignore their legal commitments.

I hope the Greeks can tackle tax evasion and corruption as well as their restrictive labour market practices as otherwise they will be doomed to spiral downwards as better managed economies from Eastern Europe overtake them

The reality is that the pre 2009 GDP figures where a fantasy as Greece borrowed to pay wages, pensions etc.

Don’t forget the military hardware, you always seem to forget the spending spree which the previous right-wing conservative government that ruled Greece in the years leading up to the crises went on for military hardware – much of it from Germany.

The Germans and French lent money to the Greek conservatives so that they could buy military hardware from them.

The Submarine Deals That Helped Sink Greece

Quote :

As Greece slashes spending to avoid default, it hasn’t moved to skimp on one area: defense.

The military deals illustrate how Germany and other creditors have in some ways benefited from Greece’s profligacy, and how that is coming back to haunt them.

Greece, with a population of just 11 million, is the largest importer of conventional weapons in Europe—and ranks fifth in the world behind China, India, the United Arab Emirates and South Korea. Its military spending is the highest in the European Union as a percentage of gross domestic product. That spending was one of the factors behind Greece’s stratospheric national debt.

Other European officials have charged France and Germany with making their military dealings with Greece a condition of their participation in the country’s huge financial rescue.

Stereotypes? The one about slavishly following rules rather than doing the morally correct thng. I think it’s called the Nuremberg defence in other contexts.

DrJ – its following the rule of law and fiscal reality. The press and the greek politicians are aiming all their barbs at Germany but the whole eurogroup is of the same view. Its not a defense its a statement of the bleeding obvious. As the Dutch Finance minister said again today Greece must respect the democracies in the other eurogroup members, they cannot have what they want without leaving the euro.

For those that care here is the letter Syriza delivered PDF

They acknowledge the size of the state spending is excessive and that pensions must be reformed to dis-incentivise people retiring between 50 and 65. Also speaks extensively of social justice but the key measure is that everything must be costed and paid for by tax rises/collection.