Greek election – extreme left won

I’m not entirely sure what your last comment was suppose to mean THM but if I get the gist correct you might find this comment by Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman interesting :

I think our eyes have been averted from the capital/labor dimension of inequality, for several reasons. It didn’t seem crucial back in the 1990s, and not enough people (me included!) have looked up to notice that things have changed. It has echoes of old-fashioned Marxism — which shouldn’t be a reason to ignore facts, but too often is. And it has really uncomfortable implications.

But I think we’d better start paying attention to those implications.

Paul Krugman.

Did I mention his Nobel Prize ?

The compromise that will be found is that Syriza will be bound by much the same agreement as currentky with a few tweaks granted in feturn for reforms / tax collection targets

As Einstein said, doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is a symptom of insanity.

A couple of times, but I think you got away with it.

From time to time, Krugman makes sense such as a few days ago…

And here’s the thing: If the troika had been truly realistic, it would have acknowledged that it was demanding the impossible.

He obviously deserved his prize! Of course the impossible started earlier than that, but that’s another story!

teamhurtmore – Member
Let’s not forget that for the average Greek, this is a time of considerable stress and unhappiness. For all the anti-Government rhetoric in the UK, think for one moment how much more severe this is in Greece. European politicians simply dont seem to get this.

POSTED 3 YEARS AGO #

For a Nobel winner isn’t he a bit late to this. Some of this saw it coming for much longer…..it wasn’t hard.

Funnily enough Ernie, you were positing hours worked on the same thread three years ago too!!!

teamhurtmore – Member
Unelected representatives have now been given the mandate to impose draconian auterity measures in their economies that are already struggling to achieve growth. This will lead to significant social unrest in several European economies and will be the final straw in some cases. The result will be a final realisation that to restore cost competitiveness to their economies several countries will need to introduce a new form of Euro arrangement or leave the Euro altogether. The only certainty in this will be that the politicians will remain behind the curve in terms of their populations and the financial markets.

It will not be pretty.

POSTED 3 YEARS AGO #

It was/is only a matter of time….it really has not been pretty especially for young Greeks.

I’m sorry THM you’ve lost me. Are claiming that 3 years ago only you knew that austerity was “much more severe” in Greece than the UK ? If so are you serious ?

And are you also serious with your comment “For a Nobel winner isn’t he a bit late to this” ? Or is this another one of your jokes ? You know full well that Krugman has opposed the Eurozone austerity plans from the very start.

I don’t understand the last line in the first of your two posts at all.

No I am not claiming that.

Re the last line, just noting that you were making the correct point about hours worked in Greece at the same time.

Anyway there is a labour mp singing the joys of Europe right now on the Beeb

It’s not entirely surprising – the labour movement has always had a strong element of “internationalism”. The mistake, of course, is to imagine that the EU is run for the people, and not for the owners. A bit like thinking that a casino is built for the benefit of gamblers.

The owners??

The owners??

Well THM you earlier referred to “the owners of capital”, which sounds terribly marxist btw, I suspect DrJ is talking about those owners.

Marxist-speak!?! Hardly – first year economics (AS level) and the circular flow of income. Owners of the factors of production and the rents that go with them. Perhaps there is a hidden Marxist element in economics 101 textbooks and examiners!! (I doubt it)

Personally, I thing the good doctor is referring to the political owners of the € project. Perhaps he may confirm.

Meanwhile the Danes have the opposite problem, with stopping money flowing into the currency!!! The joys and follies of fixed exchange rates/pegs.

Ernie, your friend Christina has tricky few weeks ahead too!

Personally, I thing the good doctor is referring to the political owners of the € project. Perhaps he may confirm.

Indeed.

The ironic thing about the Danish problem is that they have a level of personal debt that makes the Greeks look frugal. They do, however, have a highly efficient, some would say over zealous, tax collection system.

Everyone is bickering about the various economic connotations, but we are forgetting the less savoury, but very real political implications

Greece’s radical Syriza government remained locked in a bitter standoff with its German paymasters, as finance minister Yanis Varoufakis issued a stark warning of the rise of nazism in his country if the eurozone fails to heed the democratic voice of Greek voters.

Now theres probably a lot of scaremongering in that statement. But theres no doubt that the far right will be looking to take advantage of anything they can

Marxist-speak!?!

Yep, it sounds terribly marxist, as indeed does the term capitalism – did you use that term in first year economics ? Of course we all know that capitalism is not a term that Marx himself used – it’s never mentioned in any of the volumes of Das Kapital.

.

Now theres probably a lot of scaremongering in that statement.

Well obviously, he’s clearly getting rather desperate and as a consequence is being a tad over dramatic.

Although it is a historical fact that fascism thrives on being ignore, so his comment shouldn’t be dismissed too swiftly.

Well obviously, he’s clearly getting rather desperate and as a consequence is being a tad over dramatic.

Not really – have you not been following the news about Golden Dawn and their cozy relationships in the police and army? These are the consequences that don’t count in the little morality tale that is told by jamba and co, but they are real enough in Greece.

Another consequence is that all the refugees from the asian and middle east hotspots that are now ditching up on Greece’s shores will be heading north unchecked to the milk and honey of the EU.

Yes I have. Have you been following the news concerning how 72 of their party members including all their MPs are await trial for among other things conspiracy to murder ? Did you notice that at the recent election their support didn’t increase and that in fact they lost an MP ?

As I said, the threat from fascism should never be ignored, this doesn’t however prove that Golden Dawn are in the cusp of achieving power. As I suggested previously they have probably peaked. The threat they pose is more associated to the violence and criminal activity rather than achieving meaningful power.

The rise of the far right in Europe certainly isn’t restricted to Greece. And I’m sure that given any further financial chaos, they’ll be out there doing what they do… offering simplistic solutions to complex problems.

It just seems to me that everyone is focussing on the economics of this situation, and not the potential political fallout. I think theres a complacency at work (in Europe? Surely not?) where the main concern of the money men is left wingers (who aren’t really that left wing. Wheres if you look at the bigger picture, its the right wingers who are the scary ones. And they’re benefitting massively too, as people abandon the established parties throughout Europe

binners – Member

Now theres probably a lot of scaremongering in that statement.

Scaremongering’s a weird word. When someone sells you a fish you don’t accuse him of fishmongering. Sometimes stuff is just scary and worth talking about and honestly I think it goes without saying that the current situation in Greece is like a wee petri dish for extremism, if you have 50% youth unemployment then it’s pretty likely that they’re going to burn the country to the ground.

I agree with you completely Northwind. I’m absolutely amazed that, with 50% youth unemployment in a lot of countries, that there hasn’t been serious civil unrest by now. And I think that because it hasn’t happened yet governments are assuming that it won’t.

Well I wouldn’t bank on it. I think it might not take much to ignite the situation. And obviously there are people who’d like nothing more than to do just that

I’m absolutely amazed that, with 50% youth unemployment in a lot of countries, that there hasn’t been serious civil unrest by now. And I think that because it hasn’t happened yet governments are assuming that it won’t.

I think the only thing holding it back is that a lot of the unemployed/disenfranchised youth can still rely on their parents/family to provide a roof over their heads and food in their mouths. As the middle and lower classes are squeezed further by austerity this support will not be available and it could/will become much nastier. And where Greece leads, Spain, France and Italy won’t be far behind.

EDIT : Failed link. See below.

I’ve seen worse than that in Salford 6 on an average Saturday night! 😉

I mean sustained rioting in a number of countries simultaneously, calling for a massive crackdown by the authorities. Troops on the streets etc. 50% + youth unemployment against the whole southern half of a continent I thought would have been a catalyst for this

there hasn’t been serious civil unrest

What do you call “serious” ?

CLICK

Ernie, you might enjoy Krugman’s latest missive (he won Nobel prize BTW)

Like all too many crises, the new Greek crisis stems, ultimately, from political pandering. It’s the kind of thing that happens when politicians tell voters what they want to hear, make promises that can’t be fulfilled, and then can’t bring themselves to face reality and make the hard choices they’ve been pretending can be avoided.

Of course, expectations of where the article goes next is a good indicator of the lenses through which you view this story!!!

Yes THM I did enjoy that article by Noble Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman.

I particularly enjoyed reading the line that you missed out at the end of your quote. This One :

I am, of course, talking about Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, and her colleagues.

Bloody hell Ernie, where’s the spoiler? That’s the whole point of my comment.

What comes next is indeed interesting. In fact the most interesting point. I was letting people imagine before reading what Krugman said. Still time to edit…….otherwise the exercise is ruined 😯

KM used capital, capitalist for sure, capitalism not sure. Semantics, semantics…… 😉

On the point of semantics, is the Noble prize and alternative one to add to his list. I didn’t have him down as noble personally!!

the line that you missed out

Sorry – had to be done 🙂

As I suggested previously they have probably peaked.

Yes, you stated that without proof before. Let’s see if you still think it after more austerity has increased the poverty level even more and people are starving in the streets.

I provided the proof that it had “probably” peaked by pointing out that its vote hadn’t increased in the recent elections and was in fact very slightly down, and they lost one MP.

Given the present situation if Golden Dawn were able to exploit it any further then it would be reasonable to expect to have done so in the recent elections.

For me it suggests that their support has probably peaked. Of course you don’t have to agree with me – I’m not asking you to 🙂

the present situation

The present situation is that Greeks are optimistic that Syriza can enact some changes within the EU. When/if the olive branch is knocked from their hand by Schauble, there will be a new situation. Let’s see how that plays out before dismissing the possibility of a return to fascism in Greece.

THM wasn’t the only one with his thinking cap on three years ago …
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2011/12/15/never-bailed-out-europes-ants-and-grasshoppers-revisited/%5B/url%5D

A good find and a good read Doc!!

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2011/12/15/never-bailed-out-europes-ants-and-grasshoppers-revisited/

I told you he was a smart guy 🙂 You don’t get to where Valve is without knowing your shit.

Also – how refreshing to read, not like the claptrap soundbites we get here. I’d vote for him.

Let’s see how that plays out before dismissing the possibility of a return to fascism in Greece.

You don’t seem to read my posts properly, which is fair enough and there is absolutely no reason why you should, except that you are commenting on them.

For example this bit you seem to have completely missed :

“the threat from fascism should never be ignored”

And this bit :

“it is a historical fact that fascism thrives on being ignore”

So as you can see I don’t really need lessons on the threat posed by fascism.

I do however like to keep things within reasonable perspectives – it’s not always helpful to exaggerate potential threats. And I think the suggestion that the Nazis might be getting close to achieving power in Greece is probably a slight exaggeration. Although I can understand why Varoufakis might be a tad over dramatic – he desperately wants/needs to secure an agreement, and he’s right at least to point out/emphasis that the possible political consequences of him not achieving a deal could be bad for the whole of the EU, ie, it’s more likely to strengthen rather than weaken anti-EU parties such as Golden Dawn and the KKE.

You are of course free to disagree with my judgement on the matter 🙂

And I think the suggestion that the Nazis might be getting close to achieving power in Greece is probably a slight exaggeration.

You’re right – that could never happen …

Interesting comments here. I don’t understand German but I guess the summary is accurate.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/06/stop-squeezing-syriza-europe-greece-eurozone-crisis#comment-47221815

You’re right – that could never happen …

Nice picture, thank you.

So now you want to continue the theme of exaggeration and over dramatics by equating the military dictatorship under the colonels with the Nazis ?

And you can’t distinguish between :

“the suggestion that the Nazis might be getting close to achieving power in Greece is probably a slight exaggeration”

And :

“that could never happen”

Fair enough. I probably can’t help you.

Well I wonder exactly how many people a regime has to imprison or torture before in your eyes it starts to bear any comparison to Nazism? For sure the colonels didn’t ruin a full fledged system of gas chambers but spiriting thousands away to torture camps and execution on remote islands surely deserves marks for effort?

Well if that’s your criteria then presumably you think the US has a Nazi regime.

Extrajudicial imprisonment and torturing people does not define a Nazi regime. I have never heard the past military dictatorship in Greece being described as “Nazi”, nor the US, beyond the childish rantings of teenage ultra-lefties obviously.

It’s clear, to me at least, that when Varoufakis warned of the rise of nazism in Greece he was referring to growing electoral success for Golden Dawn, not the possibility of a coup staged by middle-ranking officers. An EU imposed dictatorship of unelected Eurocrats, as has already previously happened in Greece, is more likely than that.

And as I have said several times now I think he was over-egging the threat a tad, but who can blame him for that? He’s engaged in high stakes brinkmanship and the whole Syriza strategy at the present rests on him securing an agreement.

Maybe when the US starts executing its own citizens for publishing a subversive poem I’ll be tempted to use the N word in that connection.

It’s clear, to me at least, that when Varoufakis warned of the rise of nazism in Greece he was referring to growing electoral success for Golden Dawn

I hardly think so. I suspect he had in mind more their paramilitary activities than their success at the ballot box. I don’t think he was over-egging anything, rather that he has a personal knowledge of Greece’s recent history.