Greek election – extreme left won

1] Why is it always “righties” vs “lefties”?
2] These debts – are they owned-by/owed-to
a] The already vastly wealthy who tend to hoard it?
b] Poor bastards who will have/be glad to spend it?

Why do they already poor and deprived have to shoulder it? It’s fundamentally not right.

Hence my irritation with the “must make profit from ’em” approach.

I don’t think public services and such should be run for profit, because the market just cuts corners [very simple example – reluctance to pay living wages] whilst pocketing maximum profit [see Apple’s taxes].

Left v right is basically
Collective v individual
Society v market
Personal wealth v fairer society

{ tried to keep them as neutral as I could there ….probably did not manage it]

Many are fine with apple and its tax situation [ probably thinks itss good business and would praise its business model as well* ] whilst many think it stinks and it is indefensible

One of those we all decide what is most important and if you disagree well you disagree.

Its pretty clear some on here care more about the market and profit than the people and some of them even claim its the other side doing it.

* IMHO Its morally indefensible and obscene levels of profit and wealth.

* and lefties who think this is a good idea (or don’t understand basics of labour market economics!!!)

Not at all. I’m sure most ‘lefties’ fully recognise the fact that the lower the wages the higher the profit,
and the more likely an enterprise is of being competitive.

In fact if companies were allowed to use slaves both their profits and competitiveness would be massive.

The argument in favour of low wages is obvious.

Slaves make crap consumers though.

IMHO Its morally indefensible and obscene levels of profit and wealth.

True but it’s not even very good capitalism to have one organisation hoarding 100s of billions in their bank account. It’s a lazy analogy (not out of place on this thread) but how is what Apple and other busnesses/individuals doing any different to that of a parasite sucking the life out of it’s host? ‘Free’ market my a**e!

{ tried to keep them as neutral as I could there ….probably did not manage it]

😀

Yes, sorry, I didn’t mean what do left/right mean – what I’m wondering is why it’s always reduced to such simplistic terms.

As a Designer, thinking in novel ways and testing possible ideas is CRITICAL – you’ll miss the next advance if all you do is rehash the same concepts….

Which is why the ULEV I’m designing will be ****ing awesome.

Just for avoidance of doubt I am not proposing giving the rich of Greece an extra euro, far from it they should be collecting much more tax from them. Many wealthy Greeks treat tax as a voluntary donation. Germany offered tax advisors, they should accept. As / when Syriza start collecting more taxes they can increase the minimum wage should they chose to do so.

JY it would be a start if the Greek railways could reduce their huge losses somewhat, making a profit is a pipedream which will never be realised, that’s why the railways there are unsaleable.

JY my view is pretty easy to understand if you take the time to think about. Portugal, for example, is an developed economy not subject to endemic corruption, a huge black economy and rampant tax avoidance. Whilst it has had its problems it has managed its affairs far more professionally than Greece. As such it is a more attractive country for investment, an much more robust economy. As such it is a much richer country than Greece. High wages in a poor country make no sense. Greece should be at a similar level to Turkey, ie back to where it was before it joined the EU a time when it basically had to stand on its own two feet and not rely on handouts from the rest of the EU.

This.

Schauble said Greece must reform and collect more taxes, especially from the wealthy. Germany recently offered to send 500 tax inspectors to Greece, this was unfortunately declined.

WTF?…Greece needs to show willing to start coming down hard on its own tax avoiders before asking foreign countries for more money….pride doesnt come into it, this is Greece thumbing its nose to Germany.

The most depressing thing about this whole debacle is that the EU/Euro expansion, integration, financial union etc has supposedly been led by intelligent people who seem to be willfully oblivious to the realities and difficulties of joining together economies as opposite as Greece and Germany…accounts get fudged to allow more countries to join, loans get thrown around running into the hundreds of billions and meanwhile the gravy train in Brussels rolls on unaffected.

The political vanity and corruption endemic in the EU as an organisation is on a par with stereotypical Greek corruption but because its done in Brussels by Belgians in suits it goes unchecked….the sooner the whole thing collapses the better.

I could sort of see the point in financial unity between France, Germany and maybe a few other economically similar countries but trying to pull countries like Greece into the deal always smacked of expansion for the sake of it and a willingness to allow countries to join at any cost or level of corruption…

….some of the Mediterranean/southern European countries with similar economies should have pursued economic integration with each other instead of looking up to Germany, France, Holland etc….some of the poorer countries joining knew full well they would have easy access to borrowed money once in ‘the fold’ so to speak…their politicians who facilitated this need bringing to task over their wreckless borrowing and spending.

I still cant believe that in the rarefied field of top economists, bankers, politicians etc at the European and World level that the old adage of living within your means gets forgotten about so easily…FFS if you havent got it, dont spend it!…i think i was taught this when i was about 6 years old, why is that so hard for Governments to remember?

I was genuinely trying to answer your Q and I think the left and the right fundamentally value different things and they revert to just discussing this point on various issues. We dont get novel solutions as we already know “more market” or a fairer society by regulating the market.
Their is no novel option*.

* technically the novel approach is to blame the EU and immigrants

that’s why the railways there are unsaleable.

I am aware the the private sector is only interested in delivering where it can make a profit [ if the UK is anything to go by then it also needs to be helped out by massive subsidies from the public purse]. Personally I would rather have an integrated transport system and rail network that met the needs of its citizens than one marketable to the private sector because it makes a profit. Not everything can make a profit and we dont need to achieve it we could do the right thing and do some good instead
Highlights the point I made rather nicely .

if you havent got it, dont spend it!…i think i was taught this when i was about 6 years old, why is that so hard for Governments to remember?

You just really lost my interest in your POV.

If you don’t understand the importance of credit in modern financial institutions you’re not very knowedgable on the subject. “FFS” indeed, we covered this in a term in my university course.

Their is no novel option

I’ll solve the world economy with a novel solution right after I solve the transportation crisis with one then, seeing as no-one will see it coming 😉

Thanks JY, I appreciate what you were trying to do – I really value people who actually take the time to answer questions.

FFS if you havent got it, dont spend it!

Are you against mortgages, investments and the entire banking sector?

i’m against the idea of granting mortgages based on the (hoped-for) future income of the applicant.

i don’t earn £80k, not even close, but i hope to one day, would you lend me £300k to buy a house? – bearing in mind i currently can’t afford to even cover the interest. But i’m dead clever, i’ll definitely earn loads sooner or later.

there’s leveraging your assets for investment, and there’s taking the p154

The Greek people have made their bed, and whilst they may not like it, it’s time to lie in it.

So for you it comes down to some (misguided) small-minded view of morality. Who exactly made the bed that is being lain in?

Some European countries may be worried about a loss of face with a Greek default and expulsion form the euro but the project will be stronger if they have the courage to follow financial and political reality and kick Greec out.

It’s not a matter of losing face, it’s simply proof that the idea of the European club is false – that it is just a club for the powerful, and the smaller faces can be marched on by the ECB or any other non-elected bureaucracy. Seems to me that there are 2 choices – give Greece the space to grow inside the EU, or kick it out, at which point obviously it would default on all its debts, and let hardship provide the perfect soil for fascism to grow.Is that what we need? an impoverished unstable country on the mainland of Europe?

Greece should be at a similar level to Turkey

Yeah – that’s sort of the point – the EU helped Greece avoid becoming like Turkey, where the army is the biggest political force and they covertly support ISIS. Still – you’ll get your wish if Merkel and co continue to ignore the lessons of history.

When it comes to Europe the whole L v R thing is a red herring anyway (even more so than normal) as the parties are pretty confused on the whole issue and it’s constituent parts.

The point about the leftie joke is simple – why would those who should be interested in supporting the rights of workers support a structure that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them*. It’s illogical. The only answer would be if they were unilaterally committed to full fiscal union which would allow the fiscal transfers to take place – and we know where The Deutsche are on that issue. The others can’t quite decide.

* competitiveness to come though wage deflation and or unemployment (leaving only the owners of capital to benefit).

Having said that Tsipras and varoufakis probably know the names of more businessmen that support them than Ed Balls. Poor chap, I hope he has pulled his trousers up now.

Are you against mortgages, investments and the entire banking sector?

The mortgages whereby people could self certify and borrow many many times their salaries?….yep, dead against those.

The ones where you’re loaned 3-4 times your salary and have a chance at paying it back and a margin of error should interest rates change?…they’re fine.

It comes down to responsible lending and borrowing as somebody else above this post said.
Banking has become ridiculous with savers expecting 5%+ interest on their money but then crying foul when the bank plays fast and loose with their savings…you cant have it both ways, safe-ish investments and lower but hopefully steady returns or larger, faster returns but through risky investments….the fallacy we’ve been sold in recent times is that we can have it all.

We cant.

Is it too much to ask for a bit of reality being reintroduced to the financial sector?…the public (and i include myself in this) need to wake up too, earning 20k a year but carrying round several credit cards all with 10k limits is absurd…people think they’re managing because they can make the interest payment each month but in reality its only keeping the wolf from the door.

At whatever level you talk about debt, be it personal, business, national etc it usually stems from greed…a desire to have something NOW rather than wait, a desire to have something that in reality you cant afford but credit makes it seem like you can…and in this day and age people/countries dont want to be told ‘No’…they want what everyone else has even if the reality of the situation is that they shouldnt have it…again credit swoops in and makes it seem affordable.

That is what needs to stop happening at every level.

Now that’s a more nuanced reply 😀

That is what needs to stop happening at every level.

I’ll remind you of that when your kid needs an expensive operation.

The ones where you’re loaned 3-4 times your salary and have a chance at paying it back and a margin of error should interest rates change?…they’re fine.

Why? If individuals had to live by the same laws as companies and financial institutions then they’d all be declared insolvent and shut down. And just like Jambalaya, you’re making the silly error in equating individual finances to that of national and international economies. The two couldn’t be more different. I would love to be able to unilaterally force my employers to pay me more whilst at the same time reducing the value of my fixed debts by printing more £20 notes, but unlike national governments, that’s not something that’s within my power.

Well, you can print your own money, it’s the getting away with it that’s the hard bit!

by printing more £20 notes, but unfortunately that’s not something within my power.

Well sorry to be a pedant, but strictly speaking it is possible and moreover, I encourage you to do so and share some with me 🙂

Well, you can print your own money, it’s the getting away with it that’s the hard bit!

I always thought it was the eyes

Greek Railways, the ones Vovouakis said he would sell for 1 euro. back of the envelope its worth about negative 8 billion 😯

Why? If individuals had to live by the same laws as companies and financial institutions then they’d all be declared insolvent and shut down

Nonsense. Most individuals are far less leveraged than companies.

why would those who should be interested in supporting the rights of workers support a structure that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them

So few words and yet so many dismissive and [ largely inaccurate]digs
It really is a skill you have honed to perfection

The point about the leftie joke is simple – why would those who should be interested in supporting the rights of workers support a structure that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them*. It’s illogical.

* competitiveness to come though wage deflation and or unemployment (leaving only the owners of capital to benefit).

Only that’s not what you suggested in your “leftie joke”. You claimed that lefties, quote : “don’t understand basics of labour market economics!!!”, not why would they support something “that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them”.

I do agree with you though that many who purport to be leftie, including a fair few on here, fail to fully grasp the irreconcilable class antagonisms that characterize all societies beyond hunter-gatherer.

However lefties with a clear class understanding, and you obviously THM as you’ve made clear, fully understand the conflict of interest which exists with regards to wages between employees and owners of capital, as you like to call them.

I give your leftie joke 2/10 for effort. And that’s being generous I might add.

Nonsense. Most individuals are far less leveraged than companies.

Are you sure?

On the contrary, it’s exactly what I claimed and have claimed consistently. Your highlighted bit is the qualification not the point itself. The * was the give away, unless that was missed in the selective edit. Many “lefties” support something that is incompatible with their goals, this suggests the lack of understanding not the other way round. Then again many “righties” including many Tories bizarrely oppose the freedom of movement of people. All very inconsistent…and that’s before the flip-flopping on overall attitudes towards Europe. Hence framing that debates as L v R is largely unhelpful (1/10?).

But thanks for the 2 marks, I am chuffed. I can go home proud of achieving something today! You are too generous…

Many “lefties” support something that is incompatible with their goals

Well at the risk of repeating myself I agree that many who purport to be left-wing support positions which are incompatible with their goals. However those with a better class understanding tend not to.

Sadly THM not everyone understands the irreconcilable conflict of class interests as well as you and me.

.

Hence framing that debates as L v R is largely unhelpful (1/10?).

Not entirely, for me the best quick gauge of how left-wing an individual or party is their attitude to the EU. No one who is serious about achieving socialist goals can support the EU, to do so is clearly incompatible with their goals, as you put it.

And it was on that basis that it was fairly simple to conclude that Syriza, despite all the media hype and scare stories, is not a far left party. In contrast the anti-EU KKE clearly is.

Likewise the Labour Party today can barely be called left-wing, if at all, and yet in 1983 when its policy was to withdraw from the EEC it clearly was left-wing.

But then of course many on the right are also anti-EU so it is not always entirely relevant. So I would give that comment more than 1/10 if you’re asking.

What’s all this class crap? Do the Greeks have a caste system?

No, Greece is a classless society. Hadn’t you heard ?

Not entirely, for me the best quick gauge of how left-wing an individual or party is their attitude to the EU. No one who is serious about achieving socialist goals can support the EU, to do so is clearly incompatible with their goals, as you put it.

Sorry not sure I would agree 😉 the EU has bought a number of important benefits in terms of workers’ rights and protection that have countered trends in the other direction. The positives of the EU get lost in the noise of bananas etc.

So that is compatible with LW goals. To me, it’s the elephant in the room – the fixed exchange rate – that is the issue at the heart of the incompatibilities. It has been a disaster for workers and the youth of the peripheral states. Hence people will be drawn to protest parties despite their obvious lack of joined up thinking – even the sweaties did that!

Who loses in all of this – probably not the politicians. Yes some might well have only a very temporary moment centre stage but the real pain is with the youth and the workers.

It has been a disaster for workers and the youth of the peripheral states.

This. The whole thing has been a hidden subsidy for Germany and the rest, but they want to have their cake and eat it, while lecturing others on their greed.

So that is compatible with LW goals.

Of course it isn’t 😀

No left-wing government would be allowed to implement socialist policies, that’s the whole point of the EU. They would not even be allowed to implement social democratic/keynesian policies of state support for struggling industries without special permission. Or refuse to open up their markets to competition.

Which is fine if you’re not very left-wing like the UK Labour Party, but a bit of a stinker if you are a socialist.

Its quite ridiculous to suggest a Greek exit will lead to the political destablisation of Europe. There will be a few bumps but most won’t really notice. Personally I think a Greek exit will show the rest of the EU members and potential members that if you behave irresponsibly you will leave the club. The EU should have been very good for Greece but the nation decided to abuse the ability to borrow whilst doing nothing to address the corruption and tax avoidance. The EU has been very successful for a number of smaller countries, even Portugal and Ireland which made material errors in managing their economies have been bailed out and are moving on.

Seems quite clear to me Syriza will tow the line if they are serious about staying in the euro, otherwise a default and exit are on the cards

many who purport to be leftie, including a fair few on here, fail to fully grasp the irreconcilable class antagonisms that characterize all societies beyond hunter-gatherer

Its possible to be both Left wing and not a Marxist though I have some sympathy with your view and Marx though not enough to be one.

No one who is serious about achieving socialist goals can support the EU

True
Its quite a strange mix of [soft]left wing – the employment regs THM mentions but ultimately its a right wing free trade club controlled by [ gentle interventionists ] free marketers who protect business.

as for the freedom of movement I have always found it perplexing that the right wing trust markets to do the right thing but not people so they will de regulate business and restrict people with immigration control, drugs law, sex trade laws etc. Its clear even the most right wing of folk dont actually trust the market

Its possible to be both Left wing and not a Marxist

Er yes, I’m not sure why you feel the need to tell me that.

It’s not only Marxists who recognize the conflict of interests between ‘workers and owners of capital’, THM obviously does as he brought it up the issue on this thread, I’m fairly sure that he’s not a Marxist.

Seems quite clear to me that a compromise will be found if the Germans realise that it is in everyone’s interest that Greece be given the opportunity to reform their economy without a descent into further poverty, otherwise a default and exit are on the cards, in which case the creditors won’t get a bean.

Correct.

In fact, I hadn’t realised they still existed. Rather quaint, really.

Not just the Germans, the tax payers of all the other eurozone countries need to agree. Will the recovery be zero in the event of a default ? Not sure I could see Greece remaining in the EU if it pays zero cents on the euro. Not sure I agree it makes sense for Germany and the other EU nations to have Greece remain in the euro.

The compromise that will be found is that Syriza will be bound by much the same agreement as currentky with a few tweaks granted in feturn for reforms / tax collection targets