I’d never heard of Get the L out until this weekend.

Their statement this weekend seemed Bat S. Mental but a quick google for more serious debate suggests they may have a point. (Not a point that seems to have struck a cord with many lesbians looking at the lack of success of the petition.)

It’s an interesting point though. I have two trans friends who both found that gender and sexuality are completely separate, and they should know. As a result of that I’ve thought recently that the T in LGBT was a bit out of place but I hadn’t really thought about the consequence that by the time you include people with male genitalia who identify as female, the LGBT movement does seem a bit like an organisation mainly aimed at promoting “men’s” rights, in which case maybe it’s the L that is really out of place. Then if a significant number of women have male genitalia (google suggests 1pc, and in my own workplace/circle of friends it’s pushing 5pc – all previous males identifying as women) then where does that leave lesbians?

I’m not sure this is all as straightforward as it seemed to me at first.

This may come as a shock but there are people with female genetalia that identify as men

The idea that an LGBT group, no matter how small (and it is) would think it acceptable to spread messages of hate against any other LGBT group is abhorrent. Without unity, we are nothing

rachel

The idea that an LGBT group, no matter how small (and it is) would think it acceptable to spread messages of hate against any other LGBT group is abhorrent. Without unity, we are nothing

I can see why they think that doesn’t really address their point.

There are people who were born male, still have male bodies, look male, self identify as female and are sexually attracted to females. Some of these people accuse lesbians who don’t want to have sex with anyone who has a penis of being bigoted. They seem to get a lot more protection than some of the lesbians who dare speak out against this.

I note there are not many cases of people who were born male, still have male bodies, look male, self identify as female and are sexually attracted to males calling out hetrosexual males for not wanting to have sex with someone with a penis.

I wonder why…

There are people who were born male, still have male bodies, look male, self identify as female and are sexually attracted to females. Some of these people accuse lesbians who don’t want to have sex with anyone who has a penis of being bigoted. They seem to get a lot more  than some of the lesbians who dare speak out against this.

I think this is the problem, its kinda killing their own fight for recognition because the thrust of any sexual freedom argument is “who the hell has any right to tell me what I can wear and what consenting adults I can get wriggly with” and then they try and tell lesbians who they can have sex with….

It’s a complicated argument, because if someone didn’t fancy redheads, nobody would bat an eyelid, but if they didn’t fancy black girls does that make them racist?

Same issue in that heteronormative males are wrong apparently if they don’t fancy mtf trans women, some of which look and smell like men. Have they not heard of pheromones?

Some people are dicks, whether they have one, want one, once had one or never want to come within 500 feet of one.

Why should it be otherwise?

People are people, being part of a minority doesn’t mean that you’re immune to the the same prejudices and irrationality as the rest of humanity.

Some of these people accuse lesbians who don’t want to have sex with anyone who has a penis of being bigoted

How can that be bigoted though. They don’t want to have sex with a man. I don’t want to have sex with a trans woman either.  That makes me heterosexual not bigoted. It truelly is a bizzare world we live in.

Coming from a young straight man, I’m still finding the whole differences of preferences and types of gender somewhat confusing. Maybe I’m traditional more old skool in thought and actions.

However I also appreciate that people are entitled to choose whatever they want to be if categorising genres of genders and sexuality’s.

Why can’t we all just get along…

There is one thing that would freak me out and that would be if say I met and had sex with a trans to find that they were in fact used to be a man without knowing. That for me would be crossing the line.

I dunno if that speaks volumes about myself and outlook as a fellow human being or just makes a simple point of the fact that I’m straight and when mating means female/s only. As nature intended for me.

PeaceOut! ✌️

I’m also confused by all this. Can someone self identify with a gender or is that fixed by nature? How much adaptation do they need to have had to qualify as the opposite gender?

Tdog, wouldn’t you have in fact had sex with a female? Albeit one that had previously been male.

Or regardless of the bits they have engineered/removed post birth, are you thinking they always retain the gender they were born as?

I’ll let you all into a little secret.  One which many straight men seem to find completely alien as a concept.

It’s nothing to do with willies.

It’s nothing to do with willies.

Sometimes it has quite a lot to do with dicks, though.

There is one thing that would freak me out and that would be if say I met and had sex with a trans to find that they were in fact used to be a man without knowing. That for me would be crossing the line

Could be considered rape of yourself by the transperson

Under Section 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 it is an offence if a defendant intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of a person, where the other person does not consent and where the defendant does not reasonably believe the other person consents.

Section 74 of the act gives the definition of consent: “A person consents for the purposes of this Act if he agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice.”

There is one thing that would freak me out and that would be if say I met and had sex with a trans to find that they were in fact used to be a man without knowing. That for me would be crossing the line.

Sex is a thing you participate in because you have a liking/love for your sex partner, their physical presence, their smell, they make you laugh, and many other things in between, etc.

Sometimes it has quite a lot to do with dicks, though.

Good point.

Could be considered rape of yourself by the transperson

QED.

QED

Not that you have used it correctly but I guess you want me to explain.

I am a heterosexual male, I only want to have sex with the female of the species. I would not knowingly have sex with a male pretending to be a female. Therefore in order to give my consent to sex I need to be told before hand if they have xy xchromosomes. It they don’t then I cannot willing give my consent therefore it would be considered rape – Q.E.D

with a male pretending to be a female.

Here in lies the crux of your issue, some may say prejudice. Someone who identifies as female, has completed gender reassignment and has obtained a gender reassignment certificate is female. Legally, if not genetically. If you don’t find them sexually attractive, that’s fair enough, but if you DID find them sexually attractive, until you find out about their chromosomes, then that’s NOT fair enough, and says something a little bit, err, enlightening about you.

Here in lies the crux of your issue, some may say prejudice

Or some say say male and female are biological terms. I didn’t say woman on purpose. I have no issue with anyone being or wanting to be trans but I’m not going to have sex with a male. Cutting your bits off, getting implants and taking hormones does not change your sex.  The fact is that I wouldn’t give my consent to knowingly have sex with a trans woman and that’s all that is relavent.  If you don’t give consent it is rape/sexual assault.

 The fact is that I wouldn’t give my consent to knowingly have sex with a trans woman and that’s all that is relavent.  If you don’t give consent it is rape/sexual assault.

Do you ask everyone you meet? Or should they be wearing a badge? and like the tree falling in the woods if you didn’t know would it matter?

I think that’s what I was getting at v8.

Has our law detached chromosome make-up from gender, which is now solely determined by choice and investment in adaptations?

Someone who identifies as female, has completed gender reassignment and has obtained a gender reassignment certificate is female.

No they are not. You cannot change a persons biological sex. You can call them a woman but they are not and never will be female. Gender and sex are two very different things.

I must admit that I read and re-read Get the L out’s quote that was on the BBC website yesterday and struggled to understand it. They need to improve their communications if they want a debate.

Can someone self identify with a gender or is that fixed by nature? How much adaptation do they need to have had to qualify as the opposite gender?

The proposals that are being debated (at least when they are allowed to be debated) are that you can self identify as any gender (eg man or woman) you want to and you will be treated and have the same access to everything as anyone else of that gender. You do not require to make any changes to your physical appearance, or any changes at all to do so. In fact you could identify as two different genders on two different days. You just need to self identify, no medical certificate required.

This could have been ok as it is not illegal to segregate services etc based on sex (male or female). Therefore one group of peoples rights would not have to be infringed by anothers. However the difference between gender and sex is being deliberately blurred and trans rights activists go after anyone who dares to try and keep the two seperate. People lose access to their social media, are hounded at their place of work so they lose their jobs, go after premises where debates are to take place so they get cancelled etc etc. It’s really quite nasty.

Here in lies the crux of your issue, some may say prejudice. Someone who identifies as female, has completed gender reassignment is female. Legally, if not genetically. If you don’t find them sexually attractive, that’s fair enough, but if you DID find them sexually attractive, until you find out about their chromosomes, then that’s NOT fair enough, and says something a little bit, err, enlightening about you.

That you’re heterosexual?  Because nature or nurture I guarantee you the vast majority will feel this way making it a ‘normal’ reaction. And isn’t this one of the points of the protesters?

Therefore in order to give my consent to sex I need to be told before hand if they have xy xchromosomes.

You must be a lot of fun at parties.

If someone has reassigned to a point where you have sex with them and couldn’t tell, why would it matter beyond latent homophobia?  You’re viewing the partner as a bloke playing silly buggers rather than a woman for whom biology initially got wrong.

 You cannot change a persons biological sex. You can call them a woman but they are not and never will be female.

Sure you can.  As a single example, there’s plenty of historical cases where children have been born of indeterminate sex due to development issues and have been assigned one by doctors / surgeons.  What if they got it wrong?

 you can self identify as any gender (eg man or woman) you want to and you will be treated and have the same access to everything as anyone else of that gender. You do not require to make any changes to your physical appearance, or any changes at all to do so. In fact you could identify as two different genders on two different days.

Except, that never happens, it’s a straw man.  Someone waking up thinking “I’ll be a boy / girl today” isn’t TG, though they may arguably by TV.  (Cf. Eddie Izzard.)  This whole ‘self-identification’ argument is misdirection, like I could self-identify as a cheese sandwich if I wanted, it doesn’t mean I’d go well with a side salad.

As an analogy:  you could theoretically self-identify as straight one day and gay the next.  Realistically, do you think that’s something you (or anyone) would be likely to do; maybe waking up on day and think “yeah, I fancy a bit of gaying this afternoon.”  Or rather, is fancying women or men (or both) simply how you are regardless of whether you have a cock or not?

What if a not very attractive woman had a lot of work done and looked stunning (accepting that of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder)? Would that somehow be rape too?

I can’t see how you would give a flying monkey’s crap if you fancied them and didn’t notice until after, unless you wanted kids. Which isn’t an issue for lesbians. Or is a universal issue maybe would be a better way to put it.

Ideally any T would say so, but it’s just not the most important thing is it?

Except, that never happens, it’s a straw man.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/fluid-gender-policeman/

Are you denying gender fluidity?

though they may arguably by TV. (Cf. Eddie Izzard.)

Eddie Izzard the transgender? I believe calling transgender people transvestites is highly offensive.

Are you denying gender fluidity?

No, I’m saying it’s not the same thing.

Eddie Izzard the transgender? I believe calling transgender people transvestites is highly offensive.

Eddie Izzard isn’t TG.  Nice try though.  He refers to himself as an “action transvestite.”

Lol, do try and keep up sunshine.

self Identify as a gender

This phrase does have me thinking about myself. Do I actually self identify as a gender? I don’t know if I do. I self identify as me. I look down and see there is knob; look in the mirror and see a typical male body. I’m also exclusively attracted to women. But these all seem pretty low value items to me. What really makes me me is my personality, my skillet and my likes and dislikes. If I looked down one day and suddenly I was atypically female shaped I think I be less freaked out than if my personality suddenly changed irreconcilably. One is just is just a physical/mechanical thing whilst the other is much much deeper imo.

In nature it’s not quite as clear cut as XY male, XX female. Have look at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome and other sex chromosome variability.

I remember my genetics lecturer explaining that statistically XY ‘females’ were over represented in models due to the typical body type. Is it still rape if you get lucky with an XY model with CAIS without knowing?

That you’re heterosexual?  Because nature or nurture I guarantee you the vast majority will feel this way making it a ‘normal’ reaction.

Normal reaction. Common reaction. Does this automatically mean correct reaction? ‘Heterosexual’ refers to a series of physical and behavioural cues that you are sexually attracted to. It has nothing directly to do with chromosomes, except that one set of chromosomes make it more likely for an individual to demonstrate those cues than the other. If you can accept that you ‘could’ fancy an attractive transgender female without knowing that she is transgender, to admit that you’d be horrified that she used to have male sex characteristics is just playground level prejudice (common or not) and you really should take a look at yourselves. Seriously. There’s all sorts of parallels with how people used to react to finding out someone was gay 20 years ago. That was a common reaction once, too.

Do you ask everyone you meet?

Never asked but I would expect a trans person to tell me they were trans just like if someone knew they had hiv they should tell you before things were to get physical so you could make an informed consent. I am not gay so have no interest in being physical with another person of the same sex.

If someone has reassigned to a point where you have sex with them and couldn’t tell, why would it matter beyond latent homophobia?

Being heterosexual is not being scared of homosexuals. It would matter because I don’t want to have sex with a male.  That it is only thing that is relavent. If you were blindfolded and a man sucked you off would you not care given that you couldn’t tell it was a male.

I’m gonna put my hand up to playground level homophobia or whatever you want to call it. Just because the law recognizes someone as a female does not make them necessarily female in my personal contact preferences.

Homophobia is an issue with what other people do with their sex organs and practice. If I don’t want to have sex with someone who used to be a man the only person that affects is me. Call it what you like but no law is going to compel one person to have sex with another, Sounds like I am a homophobe then. I can live with that, as long as I don’t force other people to have or not have sex then I am happy with your definition of  me as a homophobe.

If you can accept that you ‘could’ fancy an attractive transgender female without knowing that she is transgender, to admit that you’d be horrified that she used to have male sex characteristics is just playground level prejudice (common or not) and you really should take a look at yourselves.

What if they did still have male sex characteristics? Would you accept you were a bigot if you refused to have sex with them on that basis?

What if they did still have male sex characteristics?

What are they then?

tell me they were trans just like if someone knew they had hiv they should tell you before things were to get physical

Whoa right there. Did you really conflate a persons personal gender history with a serious communicable disease? WTactualF??? Do you think you’re going to catch gay or something?!? Jeez.

Call it what you like but no law is going to compel one person to have sex with another,

Good lord. No one is forcing anyone to have sex with anyone. Just **** who you fancy so long as they fancy **** ing you too. Simple. And don’t get all hung up on details that you wouldn’t otherwise know about. I think this is a massive pointless argument anyway because no transgender person is going to go anywhere near someone demonstrating prejudices such as these. It’s not sexy!