Get The L Out.

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  • Get The L Out.
  • Good grief Cougar! That’s a bit different to a lesbian saying they don’t want to have sex with someone with a functioning penis.

    Cougar, lesbians don’t want sex with a penis. For this, they’re being called transphobic.

    You can’t compare sexual orientation (when did it start being called sexual preference) to preferring blonds/redheads/brunettes.

    poah
    Member

    I don’t want to have sex with a blonde.  That’s my personal choice.  Should I expect a brunette to go “hey, BTW, I dye my hair” before climbing into bed with me?  Shit, I’ve been raped!

    if you really think that is remotely the same thing then you have a serious problem.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Your logic is normally pretty good.

    It usually is right up until someone disagrees with me. (-:

    Id recommend an orgy, swingers night or better still a trip to Torture Garden.

    TG is certainly an experience.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Good grief Cougar! That’s a bit different to a lesbian saying they don’t want to have sex with someone with a functioning penis.

    Of course it is.  But I don’t have the remotest notion as to why you’d think I was was suggesting otherwise, or where that argument even vaguely came from?  Like, who even suggested that?

    Nothing wrong with that  kimbers, for those that want it there’s loads of freaky great stuff to try including getting more than 2 people involved. The rude bits of the same sex are nothing to be scared of.

    Saying that, if you can’t understand why someone a bit more reserved might be a bit upset if the beautiful woman they just got intimate with turned out to be a bloke then that’s your problem. Everyone has the right to act as they wish and consider themselves whatever gender they want but you can’t demonise someone who believes your gender is fixed at birth.

    As I said, I get that you don’t want to have sex with a trans woman

    But that woman IS a woman. They have just had medical treatment to correct a birth defect.

    Now your hangup is being intimate with a trans woman. Supposing my hang up was being intimate with someone who had been successfully treated for cancer? And my friends hang up was being intimate with someone who had been successfully treated for an STD.

    You want the trans woman to disclose her medical history or you shout rape. My friend couldn’t give a damn about the trans issue but would shout rape if the history of STD’s wasn’t revealed  I don’t care about the trans issue or the STD history but would shout rape if I wasn’t made aware of the cancer issue.

    Do you not see how that looks? You have consented to sex with a person. Later, maybe years later you become aware of their medical history and their past wasn’t what you thought it was. That history coincides with your hang up despite it not being an issue to many other people. That is not rape.

    Unless you only sleep with people who give you full access to their medical and social history you will possibly be subject to surprises down the line.

    If they don’t volunteer that information then it’s probably best that you ask anyone straight out before you take them to bed “are you transgender?”. That should sort out any problems.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    if you can’t understand why someone a bit more reserved might be a bit upset if the beautiful woman they just got intimate with turned out to be a bloke

    Turned out that they used to be a bloke.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    *applauds* boris

    boriselbrus, is someone with a penis a man or a women?

    Turned out that they used to be a bloke.

    Nope, to many they are still a bloke, just one that doesn’t feel that way and has had surgery to look more like they want to. Good luck to them.

    rene59
    Member

    What boris says is fine and makes perfect sense if you believe that all trans women are female and no different to those born female. You only get to decide that for yourself though not for others. Of course there are trans women who have had all the transitioning treatment done during early years and know of no other experience, there are also those who grew up and lived as men and only transitioned in adulthood. There will be men who won’t have a ‘hangup’ with either of those trans women and there will be men who will have a ‘hangup’ for both, or for one but not the other and everything else in between. It’s perfectly reasonable and utterly bizarre that anyone would think it not.

    But that woman IS a woman. They have just had medical treatment to correct a birth defect.

    No they are not, at least physically so. It simplifies the issue and to demand everyone accepts this is not helpful.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    boriselbrus, is someone with a penis a man or a women?

    Is someone with a skateboard a man or a woman?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Nope, to many they are still a bloke

    This is true.

    But what people think has no bearing on the physical universe.  Many many people think that Piers Morgan is a ****, that doesn’t make him an actual female sexual organ.

    5plusn8
    Member

    There is a lot of wasted electrons on here trying to persuade people through some fairly dodgy logic hoopla that they are wrong by coming up with some false analogies.

    We all understand the analogies and they are great and all, but they presuppose that the M>f trans is a female, and that is where we differ. The problem is that its a philosophical question more than anything, and it will probably never be resolved.The fact is that most on the “your sex is your chromosome side” are only really worried about it when it comes to personal relations, almost all of us have said we applaud and support everyones rights and would do whatever to help them along the way. However what we, personally, in our own bedrooms, choose not to do is surely not harming anyone else. To me it all pretty inclusive and highly tolerant. The intolerance here is those jumping through logical hoops trying to persuade us we are really secretly gay, or epic homophobes or prejudiced or whatever. You contradict yourselves with each analogy and just cannot face the fact that someone actually has a different opinion to you.
    If Rachel and any any other trans people believe they are a woman or female or whatever the correct term is, that is good enough for me, I am in no position to contradict or disagree, I accept that they are what they say they are. That is their truth. But when it comes to my personal choice, I would prefer to not have sexual relations with a trans person of M>F change as my preference is F, and I am not convinced that for my personal sexual tastes they are really F. The only person that effects is me, me only, no one else. To that end I support the lesbians who are feeling oppressed that they also want to limit their sexual preferences to women who have not transitioned from men. It only effects each of those individuals.
    The funny thing is here, we have not heard from any trans person who actually feels that people that don’t want to have sex with them because of their body history, or whatever the term is, has been wronged. I would like to know how they feel.

    And I still have not had a straight answer as to why disclosure in advance causes problems?

    I’m assuming most of the contributors to this thread are men and (unsurprisingly) it’s turned into a discussion about (having) sex.

    You could do worse than pop over to the feminist chat board at mumsnet to see what an increasing number of women (and the lesbians in the pride protest) are concerned about.

    atlaz
    Member

    If they don’t volunteer that information then it’s probably best that you ask anyone straight out before you take them to bed “are you transgender?”

    I suspect that will fix the problem as you won’t be having sex that night. I was once asked “You don’t have AIDS or anything do you?”. I understood that she was trying to make sure there were no STDs but it took the moment away somewhat.

    Or that in an attempt to be inclusive and not offend anyone, cancer research don’t even mention women in their new campaign:

    “cervical screening (or the smear test) is relevant for everyone aged 25-64 with a cervix.”

    Screening rates have fallen, and many, many women do not know they have a cervix.

    boriselbrus, is someone with a penis a man or a women?

    Really?

    I’ll assume it’s a genuine question. So it could be a man, it could be a trans woman who had not received sexual reassignment surgery, or it could be a trans man who has received SRS.

    I suspect that will fix the problem as you won’t be having sex that night. I was once asked “You don’t have AIDS or anything do you?”. I understood that she was trying to make sure there were no STDs but it took the moment away somewhat.

    Yes, that was the point.  Someone with a lot of hang ups could be there a while though.

    “Have you ever had a STD?”

    “Have you ever had cancer?”

    “Are you trans?”

    “Are you actually blonde?”

    “Have you ever had mental health issues? etc etc.”

    “Actually I’m not that bothered now, think I’ll go home”

    And I still have not had a straight answer as to why disclosure in advance causes problems

    Because what else in my medical history would you want to know?  And how am I supposed to guess what it is that causes you an issue?  Plus it may have been 40 years ago and frankly not really something I even remember or think about much.

    As I’ve said several times.  I don’t care what hangups people have about who they want to sleep with.  It’s the rape allegations that piss me off.

    I’ll assume it’s a genuine question. So it could be a man, it could be a trans woman who had not received sexual reassignment surgery, or it could be a trans man who has received SRS.

    Yes, really.

    The point I’m trying (and failing) to make it that many trans women will never have sexual reasignment surgery and that lesbians are being told that it is transphobic to say that don’t consider such a person to be a potential sexual partner. Misgendering is described as ‘literal violence’ but twitter is full trans activists shouting ‘suck on my lady dick bitch’ which sounds an awful lot like misogyny.

    atlaz
    Member

    We can probably all agree that the fanatics at the far end of the scale on all sides are usually crazy assholes. It’s not their behaviour that should help us form our opinions of those who are not assholes (see also, religious fundamentalists).

    Atlaz, are you saying the protesters at pride at fanatics, if so why?

    atlaz
    Member

    Actually… I’ve just deleted a whole load of stuff. I wholeheartedly support and applaud some of their stated beliefs but likewise some of their statements are only addressing end-of-spectrum people in the “trans-politics” community too. They’re polarising responses to quite bizarre statements and it doesn’t help dialog when people do that sort of thing.

    Atlaz, I did read the leaflet, it’s not a bloody manifesto.

    And why do you keep mentioning ‘medical transition’?

    atlaz
    Member

    Sorry, edit crossed. To answer your question. From https://getthelout.wordpress.com/2018/07/05/the-journey-begins.

    Get the L Out believes trans politics (with uncritical support from the LGBT movement) does the following:

    <other stuff cut out>

    Promotes the medical transition of lesbians and pushes harmful drugs (untested hormone blockers, Lupron etc.) as well as unnecessary medical practices on perfectly healthy bodies – these are a form of misogynist medical abuse against lesbians.

    that’s why. And I mentioned it once.

    That isn’t about adults but vulnerable gender non conforming children, many of who which will grow up to be gay (or not).

    vickypea
    Member

    I’ve only made one brief comment so far in this discussion as it went off-piste for a while, but I’ve still been following it.

    It seems to me that part of the problem is all these gender-related labels. Since gender is not the same as biological sex, there are a whole range of ideas about gender so for example, the group we label as “M>F trans” actually represents a whole range of individuals including people who have undergone hormone treatment and reassignment surgery to people who identify as women but choose to keep their male genitalia. It seems to me that the boundaries are quite blurred, and that is fine, but in terms of gender, what does being a woman or a man mean? If it’s not your chromosomes, or your sex organs, what defines you as a woman or a man? It is obviously a much deeper thing than just the clothes you wear, but what? And if I’m nowt wondering what it is that defines gender, then the logical conclusion is that we really shouldn’t get hung up on labels.

    atlaz
    Member

    Fair enough but their blog post doesn’t mention that.

    Premier Icon grumpysculler
    Subscriber

    Being blonde is not the same as being a different sex to the one you present.

    Both are physical characteristics that we are born with, dictate by our chromosomes.

    Both can be changed to some degree but not completely.

    Perhaps it is only social conditioning that leads us to attach more weight to one that the other?

    5plusn8
    Member

    the group we label as “M>F trans” actually represents a whole range of individuals

    Vickipea Apologies, that’s my lazy typing, it is a whole range of individuals.
    I agree with everything you wrote.

    vickypea
    Member

    5plusn8- it was my lazy typing too as I was doing one-finger typing into my phone

    🙂

    When men can become women just because they say so that renders the word women useless.

    If you have no name for an oppressed group (oppressed because of their sex) then how can they fight for their rights?

    poah
    Member

    Both are physical characteristics that we are born with, dictate by our chromosomes.

    Both can be changed to some degree but not completely.

    Perhaps it is only social conditioning that leads us to attach more weight to one that the other?

    no – I don’t want to bang dudes, I don’t want to bang a dude that identifies as a woman and you can’t change a male to a female.  How is that so hard to comprehend that my personal choice no matter what other people think a trans person is..  I have no issue with anyone that want to be or is trans.  That is a totally different thing.

    you also can’t compare hair colour to sex – there are at a total different level of biological genetics.

    I am not going to offer any input on this thread as I do not have the words that would ensure I didn’t upset people I have no wish to upset.

    However, what I would like to do is say that I have read this thread with interest and would like to thank the people on both sides of the debate, both those effected by this personally and those who have given their opinions in a much more structured and reasoned way than I could manage. In my eyes a lot of ignorance comes from the (Understandably) defensive attitude that crops up when someone disagrees.  Its almost impossible to find any understanding as it always looks like a personal attack and the shutters come down completely.  In this thread I have been able to have an opinion, read further on and form a slightly different opinion and tbh in the end I have returned full circle.  But for once I don’t feel dirty or ashamed about the conclusion I reached.

    Please, don’t close down communication, good or bad.  It helps even those who have little understanding to open up a little.

    philjunior
    Member

    We can probably all agree that the fanatics at the far end of the scale on all sides are usually crazy assholes.

    When men can become women just because they say so that renders the word women useless.

    If you have no name for an oppressed group (oppressed because of their sex) then how can they fight for their rights?

    I think the latter is a bit of an example of the former. There aren’t really any men going “ooh I’ll live as a woman just to halt feminism”. IMHO it’s just people jumping on the bullshit offered by the religious right wing re. potentially someone with the wrong genitals or chromosomes being in a small locked room adjacent to the small locked room you are in.

    I think it’s fine (but a bit silly in some cases) to not want to have sex with someone because of the genitals they happen to have been born with, particularly if they have had them reshaped to a degree that you can’t tell.

    In a world where people are striving for equality across the board, asking for equality for all except trans people does seem a little unfair. And, to be honest, seems to come from the “all men are bad” school of feminism, which will never lead to an equal world as it reinforces bad “male” behavior by normalising it – even though I’m sure that’s unintentional.

    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”>vickypea
    <div class=”bbp-author-role”></div>
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    I was doing one-finger typing into my phone

    </div>

    Best euphemism ever.

    retro83
    Member

    In a world where people are striving for equality across the board, asking for equality for all except trans people does seem a little unfair. And, to be honest, seems to come from the “all men are bad” school of feminism, which will never lead to an equal world as it reinforces bad “male” behavior by normalising it – even though I’m sure that’s unintentional.

    I must admit that I was quite surprised after reading the ‘gendercritical’ and some other subreddits linked off it how much they actually don’t want equality, which I naively thought feminism was about.

    To the extent that some want even post-op MTF transpeople kept out of ladies changing rooms because they still have ‘male brains’ (with a scientific paper to back it up and everything).

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