Yup. I’ve been reading up on incels. Very worrying. The current LGBTQ situation will resolve itself and in truth will impact on non vested folk in very minor ways, incels with the support of Jordan Peterson seem to be a problem for folk outside their community.

As a matter of fact reading back my own incels comment has made me realise a correction is required in that not all incels are bad. The history of the term is very interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel

Normally I disagree with Rachel, but I think she makes a series of good points.

I think in the wider feminist community there seem to be a worrying and increasingly audible number of voices suggesting that trans women are not “real” women, but from everyone I’ve listened to on the subject, they face the same issues as any other women. As Rachel points out, if people in the LGBT community want out they can get out, nobody is forcing them in, but Pride has the T part of the community at its heart.

Disclaimer – I’m not gay, bi or trans, and I am in fact a typical STWer (white, middle class, male, if I worked in IT I’d have the full set), but from the outside can see that a number of the common attitudes towards the different groups in the LGBT world are similar.

v8ninety and atlas feel that anyone not wanting to bang a trans person is a homophobe

I never said that. Never even hinted at it. What I said was that people should be able to have relationships with whoever they want and that some people are a bit too hung up on labels for their own good. So much of the agenda in the media is driven by what trans people are doing to “us” and how “they” will somehow game the system to do harm. Very little of it is tied up in the harm that is done to trans people either physically or mentally because of the tone of the discourse.

What I said was that people should be able to have relationships with whoever they want and that some people are a bit too hung up on labels for their own good.

no one said they shouldn’t

I’m not going to pretend some things in this thread haven’t upset me – they have.

curious to know why?  no one has said anything nasty about trans people in this thread.

@poah – not as rare as you would think, if you read the article.

most people don’t know about it. However, my auntie has a chromosomal syndrome..

curious to know why?  no one has said anything nasty about trans people in this thread.

If if you can’t work out how saying that a trans person would be committing rape, a violent sexual offence of the highest order, just by not disclosing private details of their past, than I doubt you are open to listening, to be honest.

3: Trans people find themselves at risk of violence from sexual partners more than any other subgroup. They are not the purportators, they’re the victims – so much so that black, trans women in the USA have a life expectancy of 29 years. Thank about that for a minute…

No doubt about it, it’s a disgraceful statistic. Why is it then that a group at risk of such violence openly encourage and threaten violence themselves towards others including assault, rape and murder of people who dare question and/or debate aspects of their trans rights movement?

Because cyclists always run red lights

rachel

If if you can’t work out how saying that a trans person would be committing rape, a violent sexual offence of the highest order, just by not disclosing private details of their past, than I doubt you are open to listening, to be honest.

rape doesn’t have to be violent and the description of rape or sexual assault is clear – without informed consent.  I also didn’t say having sex with a trans person would be committing rape either.  I replied to a hypothetical question that someone posed.

I posted the law and there has also been precedent in the courts with the case noted above.  If you as a trans person and don’t disclose your past then you open up the possibility of someone not being able to give their informed consent to the physical encounter.  Without that consent then it could be considered rape or sexual assault under the current law.

surely you would want to be open about yourself to anyone that you want to be intimate with anyway so this shouldn’t be an issue.

Well the law might say its rape, but I don’t agree. I don’t think its fair or legal, but rape is a bit strong. I think the sanctions from both “sides” are often too strong. I think homophobes should be convinced not fired or ostracized. Trans people ought to be honest about their past, thats it really,

It’s dissapointing to see that one of our own STWers has been upset by some of the comments, despite a sensible nudge from the mods to keep it respectful. As displayed recently in magnificent fashion we can show amazing camaraderie as a community – why is it different here.

I’ve nothing really constructive to add other than I feel like I’ve learned a few things from reading and thinking about some the points being raised, and argued against which is surely a good thing…

RM.

It is sad when nature doesn’t get things right, but you can’t change your biological sex, and I don’t think it is wrong to only want sexual relations with those of an opposite biological sex. Same as I don’t think it is wrong to only want sexual relations with those of the same biological sex, or to not give a monkey’s and do whatever with *whoever.

*Not with monkeys though, that would be nonconcensual and wrong.

If you as a trans person and don’t disclose your past then you open up the possibility of someone not being able to give their informed consent to the physical encounter.

I don’t want to sleep with someone if they’ve slept with someone else because I think that’s icky, another man’s penis has been in there all squirty like, eurgh*.  So if I sleep with someone and then find out afterwards that she wasn’t a virgin, have I just been raped?  I also don’t consent to sleeping with someone with an STD, so I’ll be straight round to the police station if I catch chlamydia.

You don’t half talk some bollocks sometimes.

If on the other hand you’d gone “hey, were you born a man?” they went “no” so you slept with them and then later found out that they’d lied then you might have a sliver of a point, there was intention to mislead you.  (But if you did that you’d probably never get any anyway so it’s probably moot.)

(* – for the hard of thinking this isn’t true, it’s an analogy.)

It is not a good analogy though is it. The point here is that some people feel that m > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman. So that a sexual liasion based on non disclosure of that fact would be making them unwittingly engage in sex with a man. You have stated earlier that you believe m>f transitioners are women, so you are cool with it.  Others are not, such is the variety of human choice.

The point here is that some people feel that m > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman.

While this opinion may change in the future, I suspect this is what the vast majority believe right now.  Don’t have any numbers to back that up, but I’d be interested to know if anyone disagrees. Probably a higher degree of ‘acceptance’ (in regard to the terminology) within the younger community.

Some of the comments on this thread are not some of STW’s finest work unfortunately.

Like Rachel, I’d not come back to it for a while as there is some pretty upsetting stuff posted and I don’t really need that but…

Lets say a child was born “male”, identified as female all through childhood, was put on hormone blockers before puberty, took female hormones so went through puberty as female and completed surgery.  Wind the clock on 30 years and you ended up in bed with them.  Would you really call rape?  On someone who has only ever identified as female, never gone through puberty as male, lived their whole life as female and probably doesn’t even often think about the nightmare that was their childhood?

Personally the physical traits I find attractive are face, hair, legs etc.  Never occurred to me to question the attractiveness of a chromosome.

BTW as previously disclosed on here I identify as trans-fluid, even more confusing to try and explain – even to myself!

I suspect this is what the vast majority believe right now. Don’t have any numbers to back that up, but I’d be interested to know if anyone disagrees.

I disagree (I’m 52 not sure if that puts me in your ‘younger community’ or not).

Maybe rather than just saying stuff like ‘the vast majority’ do some research, find out. Someone’s already posted on here that some of the attitudes expressed have upset them – why just tip more supposition and prejudice into the thread?

Wind the clock on 30 years and you ended up in bed with them.  Would you really call rape?

For me personally yes because I wouldn’t have given my informed consent to be sexually touched by someone who is male that has a gender identify of a woman.

I disagree (I’m 52 not sure if that puts me in your ‘younger community’ or not).

To confirm: Do you disagree personally that ‘m > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman’, or disagree about what I believe the ‘majority’ think?  Again to confirm, I wasn’t expressing my personal opinion, rather what I see and believe from people around me (and the media etc).  Important distinction that I’m not sure you understood.

Younger community was under 20, so you are a long way out :-).

I’m not thrilled that the ‘majority’ voted for Brexit, but it happened.  Plenty of examples where the majority are arguably uninformed and wrong.  Burying your head in the sand won’t make that go away though.

the ‘majority’ voted for Brexit

37% of eligible voters voted for Brexit, less than 25% of the UK population. So it didn’t happen.

[edit] my point is that saying ‘everyone I know’ or ‘the vast majority’ is anecdotal and often misleading – even stuff like the Brexit vote you need to look beneath the surface at the actual numbers not rely on some headline ‘52% of the UK voted for Brexit’ bollocks.

I’m not goign to get all JHJ with links but this is a sensitive subject and wading in with under informed comments and assertions doesn’t help anyone.

 I also don’t consent to sleeping with someone with an STD, so I’ll be straight round to the police station if I catch chlamydia.

There is case law and precedent depending on the circumstances – https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/intentional-or-reckless-sexual-transmission-infection.

Yes, but that kinda disproves your ‘rape’ point; that crime linked to is NOT rape, and there is actual physical harm to the victim. Not an accurate analogy.

For me personally yes because I wouldn’t have given my informed consent to be sexually touched by someone who is male that has a gender identify of a woman.

Wow. Just wow. I guess if the blinkers are on that tightly no further sensible discussion is possible.

Just to clarify, though the person in the example is not male. They were just born with **** chromosomes.

v8ninety and atlas feel that anyone not wanting to bang a trans person is a homophobe

This pisses me off. I’ve been criticised (probably correctly) for being high horsey on this thread, but this is what frustrates me. AT NO POINT have I suggested any such thing; it’s far more nuanced than this. What can make someone prejudiced (homophope is the wrong terminology and I have not used it) is the reasons that they decide why they don’t want to ‘bang’ someone. And as that is a purely personal thing, only the individual can know. That is, UNTIL you tell everyone about your reasons on an Internet forum, and then it’s perfectly reasonable for people to tell you that you are prejudiced.

The point here is that some people feel that m > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman

If you mean biologically female, then no it doesn’t. It is why the term “trans-sexual” was dropped in favour of trans-gender. It was an oxymoron. Vice versa also.

There is no 100% correct answer here as we’re starting with a problem that cannot be 100% fixed. Like most things it is probably best to refer to life rule #1: *don’t be a dick about it.

*Less misandristic terms are available.

37% of eligible voters voted for Brexit, less than 25% of the UK population. So it didn’t happen.

Just pedantic.  More voters voted leave than stay.  Of those that voted, more voted for leave.  Is that specific enough for you?  Point remains exactly the same.  If you asked everyone in the UK their opinion on ‘m > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman’, what do you think the outcome would be?

my point is that saying ‘everyone I know’ or ‘the vast majority’ is anecdotal and often misleading

That’s why we are discussing it, rather than stating a fact.  My original statement:

 While this opinion may change in the future, I suspect this is what the vast majority believe right now.

I even asked what other people thought.  You would rather not discuss it at all?  I believe it is a real issue, and not something to be brushed under the carpet.

For me personally yes because I wouldn’t have given my informed consent to be sexually touched by someone who is male that has a gender identify of a woman.

Fortunately, the law as is stands doesn’t recognise your view as legitimate. The “case law” you cite doesn’t apply because it reflects a completely different circumstance – sex by deception. If you asked, and someone lied, then your feelings might be justified but if you don’t ask then that’s on you. And if you do ask, the question is probably so off-putting that you won’t be having sex.

If you asked everyone in the UK their opinion on ‘m > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman’, what do you think the outcome would be?

I would need a “don’t know” option because I am torn over the issue. But I recognise that as my problem and would want a society where trans folk can get on and live whatever life they want. Personally, I find it hard to be so binary about things. Is F the same as Trans-F, is pre-op (or pre-treatment) the same as post-op? It all gets so complex when you try to define what people are on the basis of a limited number of labels.

Actually I may have been a bit harsh in my last post.

You seem to believe that your chromosomes determine your gender. They don’t. They determine which sexual organs you are born with. Usually this coincides with your gender but sometimes it doesn’t.

When you understand this, we can move on.

v8nnety – fair point you didn’t say homophobe, but you kinda alluded to it, if you didn’t mean it then I accept that you didn’t.
I don’t mind though, you are correct if you say stuff on a forum expect people to disagree, and if you feel I’m prejudiced thats your perogative. My prejudice is common, in that I don’t fancy men or want to fancy men, I dabbled a teeny bit when I was younger, pissed or pilled up and felt that it wasn’t for me. I have some detailed thoughts and reasons behind this but they are probs a bit too personal for here, but I am always happy to to discuss this stuff amongst friends so perhaps we can talk about it over a pint one day.
I don’t fancy men or want to, and I feel that despite the hormones and surgery that inside an M>F trans person is man, so I would prefer to know if someone has transitioned or not. I kinda feel like your saying my prejudice against sex with an M>F is that I am prejudiced against being gay, which I accept is true, it is in your words social conditioning. I personally believe that we should shuffle up and make room for each others personal prejudices. Lesbians don’t want to have sex with blokes, gays don’t want to have sex with women, other people are bi/fluid whatever, they are all prejudices. I am happy with them to be honest, in the words of Osgood Fielding the 3rd. “Nobody’s perfect.”

Atlaz said that people hang on to labels too much, if you fancy them then that is all that counts regardless of gender or whatever. I could not agree with that more, it is correct. So why then does anyone need to change gender? Its just a label right, wear what you want, **** who you want. What is troubling for me is that we do need to drop the labels to stop people from being forced into one gender or another, but then the whole trans movement enforces the new labels harder than most, – cougar is insistent that M>F is a woman, he is enforcing the label, the M>F trans people I know take  up their feminine role very strongly, stronger than my wife, who never wears heels or makeup, stronger than many women I know. I think it undermines the support we should be giving people who are not binary about gender.
In fact many women I know say “oh I am me first, the woman thing is societies label for me.”
Its the way I want to see other people, so I can treat them all equally.

You seem to believe that your chromosomes determine your gender. They don’t.

I don’t think we really know this, not least because we don’t really know what gender is. And we don’t really understand the full effect of all of the transitioning processes. You should be cautious that you are not being just as binary/black and white as those you oppose.

I am prejudiced against being gay, which I accept is true,

So, as a thought experiment:  with that sentiment in mind, what if you were in fact gay?  How would you feel?

The M>F trans people I know take  up their feminine role very strongly, stronger than my wife, who never wears heels or makeup, stronger than many women I know.

/me Looks at self, notices she is wearing Converse, jeans and a tshirt. No make-up, short hair. Sat writing code stuff for her open source dev job. Wonders exactly what “takes up their feminine role very strongly” actually means… 🤔

edit – oh – my tshirt is the Django “Code like a girl” one – maybe that’s it!!

Rachel

You seem to believe that your chromosomes determine your gender. They don’t

just as well I said sex then isn’t it.

Fortunately, the law as is stands doesn’t recognise your view as legitimate. The “case law” you cite doesn’t apply because it reflects a completely different circumstance – sex by deception

Which is what not telling someone you are trans amounts to if the person doesn’t want to have sex with someone who is trans.

Wow. Just wow. I guess if the blinkers are on that tightly no further sensible discussion is possible.

Why wow? I don’t ever want to be sexually  intimate with a man, a male or transperson. That is my choice.  I really don’t see how that is blinkered.

Apologies Rachel.That was a logical error on my part. I should have really said not all, and have a responsibility to say not all.

Looks at self, notices she is wearing Converse, jeans and a tshirt. No make-up, short hair. Sat writing code stuff for her open source dev job. Wonders exactly what “takes up their feminine role very strongly” actually means

Cougar I have thought about it in the past and decided I wasn’t. So I can’t imagine what it would feel like to be gay, so I can’t comment. I do really love some men I know, my friends, but they don’t make me anywhere near as horny as my wife or Christina Hendricks.
With that in mind I don’t think it would be possible for me to be gay, I wouldn’t want to exclude women from my sexual delusions. Its feasible for me to be bi, or pansexual, but blokes generally don’t do it for me.  I am not particularly masculine and I don’t feel “male” I don’t really know what that is or should feel like, but I do prefer the ladies, sorry.
And you?

For me personally yes because I wouldn’t have given my informed consent to be sexually touched by someone who is male that has a gender identify of a woman.

@poah, I ask again, please define “female” (or “male”, either works). It’s much trickier than you’d think.